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Russian plane crash - evidence pointing to bomb or missile - 224 dead watch

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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    It is not a moral argument they are winning. For as long as we continue to interfere, we are going to cause casualties and they are going to have that to use as propaganda. ISIS will merely be replaced by ISIS Version 2.0. Why do such groups keep springing up in the Middle East? And it seems that each incarnation is getting worse. We are not solving the root problem by attacking groups like ISIS.



    Why are such groups springing up in Africa and the far East?
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    Oh I can't remember which thread it was, it was years ago and I've been off here doing some serious **** since then and now I'm back. I think the actual thread got deleted because some morons decided to go full out racist. But you were defiantly on the licky licky bum bum side of things when it comes to Islamism. (This was before ISIS came about, around 2012/13)
    I don't accept that. I recall arguing against people many times who are simply being bigoted against Islam. There's a difficulty here, because all the hate and agitprop of ISIS and the like is at least partly designed to produce a wave of hate back from western communities against average Muslims and drive the latter into the hands of the extremists. If we can't distinguish extremist cults like ISIS from mainstream Islam then we have no chance and we may as well declare World War 3 here and now. Maybe that's what some people think they want. There's such a lot of cluelessness and ignorance about Islam from many people. I suspect you are in a category of people who feel that they hate it as a religion without understanding anything about it. I'm not religious myself but there's a difference between making ignorant remarks about it, commenting constructively and 'bumming' as you put it.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)


    Why are such groups springing up in Africa and the far East?
    And yet the same book and region gave rise to the Sudanese pacifist Mahmoud Taha. The Bible contains many abhorrent verses which we can see giving rise to homophobia in Uganda and such, but ultimately we aren't seeing any modern day Crusades or Christian versions of ISIS.

    Like any religion, Islam is just as much subject to interpretation. Fundamentally, I think there is far more at play here and that Islamism is far more complex than many appreciate.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I don't accept that. I recall arguing against people many times who are simply being bigoted against Islam. There's a difficulty here, because all the hate and agitprop of ISIS and the like is at least partly designed to produce a wave of hate back from western communities against average Muslims and drive the latter into the hands of the extremists. If we can't distinguish extremist cults like ISIS from mainstream Islam then we have no chance and we may as well declare World War 3 here and now. Maybe that's what some people think they want. There's such a lot of cluelessness and ignorance about Islam from many people. I suspect you are in a category of people who feel that they hate it as a religion without understanding anything about it. I'm not religious myself but there's a difference between making ignorant remarks about it, commenting constructively and 'bumming' as you put it.
    I understand Islam and I've spent a lot of time learning about Islam, some of my friends are Muslim. My main problem (other than the fact that it has some very disgusting moral positions) is with political Islam. I have always been explicit about that. I distinctly remember you trying to argue that Islam was not homophobic and we should not criticize homophobic verses within the Qur'an and other scriptures, and you kept banging on about the Iraq war as a response and I was an "Islamophobic". I can't find the thread, but it was certainly you and I'll link it if I find it and it and it isn't deleted.

    I don't care if you don't accept it, maybe you have changed. But it was you.
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    And yet the same book and region gave rise to the Sudanese pacifist Mahmoud Taha. The Bible contains many abhorrent verses which we can see giving rise to homophobia in Uganda and such, but ultimately we aren't seeing any modern day Crusades or Christian versions of ISIS.

    Like any religion, Islam is just as much subject to interpretation. Fundamentally, I think there is far more at play here and that Islamism is far more complex than many appreciate.
    Well yes, not every single person who is muslim and reads the Quran is going to become a terrorist but you simply cannot deny that 99.8% of terrorism around the world is commited by Muslims in the name of Allah. You would have to be insane to assign the blame of terrorism on other factors.

    Now i agree other factors contribute to propaganda such as western involvement and what not because it is easy to use that as propaganda but that simply does not make that example the cause or reason behind terrorist activity.

    Christianity is littered with bloodshed aswell. It has had to grow up under the scrutiny and freedom in western countries and has come through its dark ages and is slowly dying away
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    So, ISIS have managed to cripple tourism to Syria, Iran, Tunisia, and now Egypt.

    The press need to stop branding their name over everything, they want to economically starve these countries from one of their main economic sources, that makes it easier to gain influence over them.
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    I understand Islam and I've spent a lot of time learning about Islam, some of my friends are Muslim. My main problem (other than the fact that it has some very disgusting moral positions) is with political Islam. I have always been explicit about that. I distinctly remember you trying to argue that Islam was not homophobic and we should not criticize homophobic verses within the Qur'an and other scriptures, and you kept banging on about the Iraq war as a response and I was an "Islamophobic". I can't find the thread, but it was certainly you and I'll link it if I find it and it isn't deleted.
    I think you are mistaken, I don't believe that I would have defended homophobic positions. However, I might have been involved in threads in Religion where people were casting particular passages as meaning one thing and not agreeing. However, I actually think you are simply mistaken as I have no recollection at all of a specific discussion on allegedly homophobic passages in the Quran.

    Anyway, this is getting off topic.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Well yes, not every single person who is muslim and reads the Quran is going to become a terrorist but you simply cannot deny that 99.8% of terrorism around the world is commited by Muslims in the name of Allah. You would have to be insane to assign the blame of terrorism on other factors.
    That's quite a claim. One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist, but I doubt that it's remotely true that almost 100% of terror attacks (I assume we are talking about non-governmental attacks against civilian or military targets as part of a campaign using violent means) are Islamist in origin. There are many groups fighting many causes around the world, although admittedly there has been something of a lull in recent years in some traditional flashpoints such as Latin America, Northern Ireland, the Indian subcontinent and Sri Lanka and parts of E. Asia.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    That's quite a claim. One person's freedom fighter is another's terrorist, but I doubt that it's remotely true that almost 100% of terror attacks (I assume we are talking about non-governmental attacks against civilian or military targets as part of a campaign using violent means) are Islamist in origin. There are many groups fighting many causes around the world, although admittedly there has been something of a lull in recent years in some traditional flashpoints such as Latin America, Northern Ireland, the Indian subcontinent and Sri Lanka and parts of E. Asia.
    Ok, 95%?
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Ok, 95%?
    It's true that we're going through an Islamist extremist phase.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncidents,_2014

    What has happened to some extent is that previous terrorist campaigns have been halted due to political fixes, such as Northern Ireland, Basque country, Colombia/FARC, etc. These things seem to go in waves.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Well yes, not every single person who is muslim and reads the Quran is going to become a terrorist but you simply cannot deny that 99.8% of terrorism around the world is commited by Muslims in the name of Allah. You would have to be insane to assign the blame of terrorism on other factors.
    Indeed, I don't think anyone would deny that Islamism has a huge support base and that is a big problem that needs addressing. But I would argue that progressive Islam and progressive Muslims (not so called "moderate" Muslims), are just as much opposed to Islamism and that progressive Islam represents the strongest weapon we have against Islamism. So whilst we can point to Quran and say "here is the culprit", we could also equally point to the Quran and say "here is the solution" as progressive Islam does represent a step forward.

    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Now i agree other factors contribute to propaganda such as western involvement and what not because it is easy to use that as propaganda but that simply does not make that example the cause or reason behind terrorist activity.

    Christianity is littered with bloodshed aswell. It has had to grow up under the scrutiny and freedom in western countries and has come through its dark ages and is slowly dying away
    This I believe is the fundamental point. Christianity has been through a reformation and has progressed. What we need is an Islamic reformation. In fact, I believe that ISIS has the potential to be the impetus that drives Islam through a reformation.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think you are mistaken, I don't believe that I would have defended homophobic positions. However, I might have been involved in threads in Religion where people were casting particular passages as meaning one thing and not agreeing. However, I actually think you are simply mistaken as I have no recollection at all of a specific discussion on allegedly homophobic passages in the Quran.

    Anyway, this is getting off topic.
    Going on topic then.

    In regard to the plane crash, if this turns out to be a bomb, some serious **** is about to kick off. Putin will respond with force, right into ISIS's trap. I've been away for the past few years, and I've travelled around some pretty hot areas doing some **** that won't mention for legalities, some of those places in which the Russian military is operating (although of course they are volunteers on holiday with their tanks) - they will **** you up if you get into a firefight with them or piss them off. Their military are brutal people.

    There is going to be a major offensive soon in Syria, because phase 1 of the Russian airstrikes is nearly over and they've took out most major rebel/ ISIS fortified static positions/ equipment. Phase 2 (combined hybrid warfare with Russian airstrikes) is always going to be messy, but if this does turns out to be a terror attack, expect Russian forces (at the very least Spetznaz) to be involved. Russian "volunteer" tank crews are already serving in Assad's Army, I expect a few more of theses "volunteers" will turn up with their suitcases and rifles outside Damascus.

    This means more civilians dead, the Arab nations getting pissed off along with Turkey, and funding for the rebels going through the roof. Exactly what ISIS/ rebels need at the critical moment (it's been losing a lot of ground since June).

    ISIS have ran out of journalists to behead and are unlikely to capture anymore, and the chances of capturing a pilot by shooting down a jet and then burning him in a cage are very slim. This could be the next propaganda coup, and are unwilling to share their methods so they can do it again.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's true that we're going through an Islamist extremist phase.
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...ncidents,_2014

    What has happened to some extent is that previous terrorist campaigns have been halted due to political fixes, such as Northern Ireland, Basque country, Colombia/FARC, etc. These things seem to go in waves.
    And these terrorist groups you mention are all localised and have a clear agenda and purpose.

    Yet when an islamic terrorist tells us why they are commiting such attacks spanning nearly every continent (Not sure if South America has had an islamic terrorist attack), we ignore the reasons that the terrorist themselves give and offer some pathetic reasoning like intelligence agencies drove them to do it or because of western military action

    What is the politcal fix Ito ISIS? A global Islamic caliphate under ISIS rule?
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    (Original post by The Blue Axolotl)
    They hate the West, they'll always have it for us no matter whether we don't get involved.
    True, the least we can do is teach them respect.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    Do you mean like in Afghanistan? You know - that place we invaded 14 years ago with the aim of eliminating terrorism and the Taliban? 14 years later and IS is the new Al Qaeda, the Taliban are retaking cities in Afghanistan by the week and most of the Middle East is in complete turmoil. You are right - we just need to keep bombing and killing. After all, if someone started bombing us, after a while, we would start doing what they told us no?
    Don't give me this cultural relativistic bull****, the Taliban were pashto nationalist racists, the ethnic minorities they persecuted are extremely glad they were removed.
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    (Original post by Masih ad-Dajjal)
    True, the least we can do is teach them respect.

    They're absolutely barbaric... they no nothing of respect and never will.
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    (Original post by The Blue Axolotl)
    They're absolutely barbaric... they no nothing of respect and never will.
    http://articles.philly.com/1986-01-1...n-organization
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    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    Indeed, I don't think anyone would deny that Islamism has a huge support base and that is a big problem that needs addressing. But I would argue that progressive Islam and progressive Muslims (not so called "moderate" Muslims), are just as much opposed to Islamism and that progressive Islam represents the strongest weapon we have against Islamism. So whilst we can point to Quran and say "here is the culprit", we could also equally point to the Quran and say "here is the solution" as progressive Islam does represent a step forward.
    I absolutely agree



    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    This I believe is the fundamental point. Christianity has been through a reformation and has progressed. What we need is an Islamic reformation. In fact, I believe that ISIS has the potential to be the impetus that drives Islam through a reformation.
    Again i agree but it will never come about if people cannot have open and honest discussions. You only need to look at the overwhelming hate and death threats ex muslims, muslim reofrmers and liberal progressive muslims receive from the majority of muslims including their own families and thats over here in first world countries like the UK
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    ISIS and the Soviet Union are incomparable!!
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    (Original post by The Blue Axolotl)
    ISIS and the Soviet Union are incomparable!!
    No I'm saying there is a reason the terrorists left the Soviet diplomats alone but didn't have any qualms about killing yankee ones after the KGB showed them the meaning of a tough response.
 
 
 
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