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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    Are human beings actually anything more than numbers on a spreadsheet to you lot? Just because vulnerable people killing themselves might save you some governmental loose change doesn't make it a good thing!
    Not to me, our lives are defined from birth to death by unique numbers.

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    (Original post by Ali1302)
    UK hospitals lack modern equipment such as MRI scanners, have longer surgery waiting times, low pay for doctors and nurses causing low morale among healthcare professionals, hospitals expected to be shut down due to budget cuts: http://www.theguardian.com/society/2...d-deficit-2020

    Free healthcare isn't sustainable and privatisation is inevitable one way or another. Don't be under any illusion that the NHS is anyway comparable in terms of quality to private healthcare providers in the developed world.
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/danmunro...son-this-year/

    http://www.nuffieldtrust.org.uk/data...ding-person-uk

    They spend more per person on healthcare than the uk, in fact so much more that if either system is unsustainable it's the private system.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    The USA spend much more on Healthcare relatively than we do, a single payer system would significantly cut their costs.
    And many of the healthcare systems better than ours do not have a single payer system, they just have a better system than the one in the US which is simply crap.

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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And many of the healthcare systems better than ours do not have a single payer system, they just have a better system than the one in the US which is simply crap.

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    I agree, but they won't change it because socialism is so toxic in the US that anyone that tries to reform it gets too much opposition. Even if said reform isn't of a single payer system. My point was merely that a single payer system would be cheaper, which would be very hard to refute.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Not to me, our lives are defined from birth to death by unique numbers.

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    And if your number isn't big enough, you can be left to die. How lovely.

    I seem to remember the Tories being rather angry when a certain "Compassionate MP" said we should have compulsory euthanasia for elderly people because they're just a drain on society. It turns out you were only angry because he was stealing your ground.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And many of the healthcare systems better than ours do not have a single payer system, they just have a better system than the one in the US which is simply crap.

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    How about a fairer method of comparison such as cancer survival rates or procedural/surgery outcomes were the United States outperforms all countries. What about waiting times for an MRI scan or surgery or the fact that no one gives priority to someone other then you and your not put in long waiting lists.
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    (Original post by Saoirse:3)
    And if your number isn't big enough, you can be left to die. How lovely.

    I seem to remember the Tories being rather angry when a certain "Compassionate MP" said we should have compulsory euthanasia for elderly people because they're just a drain on society. It turns out you were only angry because he was stealing your ground.
    What does the particular number have to do with cosmetic surgery?
    And when did any of us formally make the claim of being compassionate?

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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    I agree, but they won't change it because socialism is so toxic in the US that anyone that tries to reform it gets too much opposition. Even if said reform isn't of a single payer system. My point was merely that a single payer system would be cheaper, which would be very hard to refute.
    Except many of the better systems are no more socialist than the US system given Medicare and Medicaid

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    Approximate Savings and more detail

    IVF The Average cost of aIVF Operations is around £8000 per operation There are on average600,000 IVF Operations a year So 8000x600 000 = 4800000000 - Saving ( average ) 4.8 Million

    Sex Change Average cost - £10,000 - £15,000 For simplicity sake that’s say the exact cost of a sexchange operations was £10,000 Last year there were around 400 sex change operationspreformed last year £10,000 x 400 = 400000 this is not a huge savinghowever if a second reading happened I would look at amending this operation inthe context of this bill

    Baraitic Operations Baratic operations cost the NHS £85 Million pounds ayear Savings of 85 million would be created by droppingthis from the nhs Cosmetic surgery

    As requested I will also amend this and will updatethe bill accordingly From the information above this bill would save theNHS Roughly £90 million a year this money would remain in the NHS Budget andcan be used to accommodate other essential life saving operation and surgeries andthe NHS Can provide other treatments not yet available in the NHS ( Like Cancertreatments such as proton therapy) – this can be funded by the savings made andincreasing the NHS Budget
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Except many of the better systems are no more socialist than the US system given Medicare and Medicaid

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    Which are also badly implemented, and highly costly.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    I agree, but they won't change it because socialism is so toxic in the US that anyone that tries to reform it gets too much opposition. Even if said reform isn't of a single payer system. My point was merely that a single payer system would be cheaper, which would be very hard to refute.
    Cheaper doesn't equal better. These are people's lives were talking about!!
    Better quality healthcare is going to cost more and the private sector provides the best quality. I'm not going to support this mad socialist/communist agenda of free universal Heathcare. It won't work here because the government can't afford it.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    Which are also badly implemented, and highly costly.
    You're declaring that the other systems would not be implemented for being too socialist, which is trivially false, because if that were so there would be neither Medicare nor Medicaid, definitely wouldn't be Medicaid.

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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    Approximate Savings and more detail

    IVF The Average cost of aIVF Operations is around £8000 per operation There are on average600,000 IVF Operations a year So 8000x600 000 = 4800000000 - Saving ( average ) 4 Million

    Sex Change Average cost - £10,000 - £15,000 For simplicity sake that’s say the exact cost of a sexchange operations was £10,000 Last year there were around 400 sex change operationspreformed last year £10,000 x 400 = 400000 this is not a huge savinghowever if a second reading happened I would look at amending this operation inthe context of this bill

    Baraitic Operations Baratic operations cost the NHS £85 Million pounds ayear Savings of 85 million would be created by droppingthis from the nhs Cosmetic surgery

    As requested I will also amend this and will updatethe bill accordingly From the information above this bill would save theNHS Roughly £90 million a year this money would remain in the NHS Budget andcan be used to accommodate other essential life saving operation and surgeries andthe NHS Can provide other treatments not yet available in the NHS ( Like Cancertreatments such as proton therapy) – this can be funded by the savings made andincreasing the NHS Budget
    Your maths or data if off somewhere, because with the data you have IVF costs 4.8 bn

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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    Approximate Savings and more detail

    IVF The Average cost of aIVF Operations is around £8000 per operation There are on average600,000 IVF Operations a year So 8000x600 000 = 4800000000 - Saving ( average ) 4 Million
    How much tax would these 600,000 children born through state funded IVF pay? I assume it would be more than £4,000,000.

    Sex Change Average cost - £10,000 - £15,000 For simplicity sake that’s say the exact cost of a sexchange operations was £10,000 Last year there were around 400 sex change operationspreformed last year £10,000 x 400 = 400000 this is not a huge savinghowever if a second reading happened I would look at amending this operation inthe context of this bill
    What would be the cost to health services from the attempted suicides and counselling that would be required for the transgender community that can't afford to pay for the procedure itself? It would be a whole lot more than £400,000.

    Baraitic Operations Baratic operations cost the NHS £85 Million pounds ayear Savings of 85 million would be created by droppingthis from the nhs Cosmetic surgery
    What would be the cost to the NHS of dealing with the higher levels of obesity after removing Bariatric operations?

    As requested I will also amend this and will updatethe bill accordingly From the information above this bill would save theNHS Roughly £90 million a year this money would remain in the NHS Budget andcan be used to accommodate other essential life saving operation and surgeries andthe NHS Can provide other treatments not yet available in the NHS ( Like Cancertreatments such as proton therapy) – this can be funded by the savings made andincreasing the NHS Budget
    It seems that so far it will actually cost the NHS more to remove these services.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Your maths or data if off somewhere, because with the data you have IVF costs 4.8 bn

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    Will Ammend
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    (Original post by Ali1302)
    Cheaper doesn't equal better. These are people's lives were talking about!!
    Better quality healthcare is going to cost more and the private sector provides the best quality. I'm not going to support this mad socialist/communist agenda of free universal Heathcare. It won't work here because the government can't afford it.
    You're suggesting that that people have to buy health insurance in order to recieve medical attention. These are people's lives, and people have to pay more under a private system like in the US for less care than they'd receive under a system similar to our own. As I said before, there's nothing to stop anyone buying their own private healthcare here in the UK.

    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You're declaring that the other systems would not be implemented for being too socialist, which is trivially false, because if that were so there would be neither Medicare nor Medicaid, definitely wouldn't be Medicaid.

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    Which both look like they may be on the way out anyway. The level of opposition there is for both of them is astounding, and even then, if that system was proposed over here there'd be outrage.
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    (Original post by James Milibanter)
    How much tax would these 600,000 children born through state funded IVF pay? I assume it would be more than £4,000,000.



    What would be the cost to health services from the attempted suicides and counselling that would be required for the transgender community that can't afford to pay for the procedure itself? It would be a whole lot more than £400,000.



    What would be the cost to the NHS of dealing with the higher levels of obesity after removing Bariatric operations?



    It seems that so far it will actually cost the NHS more to remove these services.

    1) What does tax have to do with with the NHS Saving 4.8 millions pounds a year from cutting IVF
    2) These calculations are based on how many operations of that type are preformed each year and how much each individual operations costs the NHS
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    - Sex Change operations - Ridiculous to take this out of NHS funding, its morally unethical. Unless you're TG I don't think you can really conceptualise what it's like to be born into the wrong body. Gender Dysphoria from the accounts I've read and the people I've spoken to is emotionally horrific and I admire people that are brave enough to do something about it.

    - Aesthetic Plastic Surgery - Would Aesthetic plastic surgery count as continuous surgery after re-constructive surgery, eg. a soldier having aesthetic surgery after being wounded during war?

    - IVF Fertility Treatment - Who are we to stop people becoming parents?

    - All Operations of a Religious nature - Examples?

    - Bariatic operations - I'm split on this one, there are advantages but it should be used sparingly as an exhaustive option.

    - Cosmetic Surgery - Agreed.

    I see what you're trying to achieve and it's nice to see you write a bill, but I have a conscience.
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    1) What does tax have to do with with the NHS Saving 4.8 millions pounds a year from cutting IVF
    2) These calculations are based on how many operations of that type are preformed each year and how much each individual operations costs the NHS
    But the costing is inadequate when you say that cutting these services will save money. These services, it could be argued, actually save the NHS money in the cases of sex changes and Bariatric surgery, and IVF actually brings in more revenue than it costs the NHS to perform it.
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    (Original post by JoeL1994)
    - Sex Change operations - Ridiculous to take this out of NHS funding, its morally unethical. Unless you're TG I don't think you can really conceptualise what it's like to be born into the wrong body. Gender Dysphoria from the accounts I've read and the people I've spoken to is emotionally horrific and I admire people that are brave enough to do something about it.

    - Aesthetic Plastic Surgery - Would Aesthetic plastic surgery count as continuous surgery after re-constructive surgery, eg. a soldier having aesthetic surgery after being wounded during war?

    - IVF Fertility Treatment - Who are we to stop people becoming parents?

    - All Operations of a Religious nature - Examples?

    - Bariatic operations - I'm split on this one, there are advantages but it should be used sparingly as an exhaustive option.

    - Cosmetic Surgery - Agreed.

    I see what you're trying to achieve and it's nice to see you write a bill, but I have a conscience.
    Definitely a lefty.

    Bariatric surgery almost certainly saves the NHS money in the long run, as well as most other of the services that have been included. I also somewhat agree with cosmetic surgery though
 
 
 
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