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Turkey Condemns Russia for Fighting Islam in Syria, Calls on West to Accept ISIS watch

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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It's refreshing to see a Moslem accept that there have been instances of Islamic aggression. Most refuse to countenance it.
    You need to meet more shia muslims, haha. We're pretty much opposed to every muslim dynasty in history except those of Muhammad and Ali ibn Abu Talib. Even the historical shia dynasties, like the iddrisids, fatimids and safavids took on serious deviations, according to our perspective.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    That's part of my point. They're a pashtun nationalist group with islamist tendencies, which were mainly used to win support from other sunni self-described islamist countries like saudi arabia in the war against the USSR. I do not like or promote the taliban. They murdered over 10000 of my fellow shia adherents in afghanistan, wiping out entire villages.
    The west funded the Mujahideen to combat the Soviet Union. Pakistan funded the Taliban. Not America.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    Regardless, in the last few centuries of muslim rule in spain, most of the ethnic iberian population had converted to Islam - the inquisition was far more oppressive than any muslim dynasty in Spain's actions towards non muslims. Even the Almohads and Almoravids weren't as bad.
    All forms of superstitious interference in laws is bad, whether Christian or Islamic, as is forced religious conversion (and indoctrination into any religion of those under 18). I condemn both unreservedly.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    The west funded the Mujahideen to combat the Soviet Union. Pakistan funded the Taliban. Not America.
    I never said that the USA funded the taliban. Saudi arabia funded both the Taliban and the Mujahideen whereas the USA had only funded and trained the Mujahideen. The taliban came about from a student movement from a madrassah run by a pakistani organisation called Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam. The taliban actually took over -from- the mujahideen government of the Islamic State of Afghanistan through conquest, establishing the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and forcing the mujahideen to retreat to form the Northern Alliance - I'm aware of all this and that they were separate groups.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    All forms of superstitious interference in laws is bad, whether Christian or Islamic, as is forced religious conversion (and indoctrination into any religion of those under 18). I condemn both unreservedly.
    I actually don't believe in religious indoctrination of children either. If I ever have kids, I'd rather present to them sources of information from a variety of opinions and teach them to create their own understandings and opinions.
    I don't agree with your opinion of religious involvement in law. Legal systems are based upon principles that have mainly come from religion. Religion was, historically, the legalising force of civilisation, and while that is no longer necessarily true, there is nothing wrong with drawing on fair and just policies from religious ideologies - not because they are islamic, but because they are just.
    I don't believe in 'islam for the sake of islam'. I believe in 'islam for the sake of what it can provide'.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    Legal systems are based upon principles that have mainly come from religion. Religion was, historically, the legalising force of civilisation
    Are you trying to tell me that the ancient Greek or pre-Justinian Roman law was derived from religious principles? I don't think so. Common law is derived from pre-Christian times and if there were any religious principles involved they are now entirely lost.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    Are you trying to tell me that the ancient Greek or pre-Justinian Roman law was derived from religious principles? I don't think so. Common law is derived from pre-Christian times and if there were any religious principles involved they are now entirely lost.
    Ancient Greek and pre-Justinian Roman law was derived from the religious ideas of the city state in question for Greece , and from the religious ideas of the people of Latium for the romans.

    We don't know much about ancient greek law, apart from after the codification of Draco the Lawgiver which included the constitution of athens. The laws of Plato and the arguments against them by Aristotle in his Politics weren't actual laws but ideas about law that were never practically enforced. The constitution of athens was produced from the various oral legal systems that the aristocracy had been modifying to suit their whims (this was the reason for its writing).

    On the development of early roman law, from wikipedia:

    'Before the Twelve Tables (754–449 BC), private law comprised the Roman civil law (ius civile Quiritium) that applied only to Roman citizens, and was bonded to religion; undeveloped, with attributes of strict formalism, symbolism, and conservatism, e.g. the ritual practice of mancipatio (a form of sale). The jurist Sextus Pomponius said, "At the beginning of our city, the people began their first activities without any fixed law, and without any fixed rights: all things were ruled despotically, by kings". (Reference: "Roman Law". Catholic Encyclopedia) It is believed that Roman Law is rooted in the Etruscan religion, emphasising ritual. (Reference: Jenő Szmodis: The Reality of the Law—From the Etruscan Religion to the Postmodern Theories of Law)'

    Yes, religious influence slowly died away as the Greeks and Romans had to adapt their law for the various economic, military and cultural environments in which they found themselves, as it has and is continuing to in European states once ruled by the Romans. That doesn't mean that their bases wasn't in religion.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    I never said that the USA funded the taliban. Saudi arabia funded both the Taliban and the Mujahideen whereas the USA had only funded and trained the Mujahideen. The taliban came about from a student movement from a madrassah run by a pakistani organisation called Jamiat Ulema-e-Islam. The taliban actually took over -from- the mujahideen government of the Islamic State of Afghanistan through conquest, establishing the Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan and forcing the mujahideen to retreat to form the Northern Alliance - I'm aware of all this and that they were separate groups.
    Sorry, thought you were implying the old 'USA created the Taliban' cliche. So how does that all tie in to western foreign policy then? Specifically that the west shouldn't have intervened in Afghanistan.
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    (Original post by AlwaysWatching)
    Obama quite clearly isn't pro-ISIS/ Islamist.

    I wouldn't call the YPG/ YPJ amazing either. In terms of effectiveness or in terms of conformity to the Geneva conventions. They also have committed war crimes.

    That isn't to say I don't support the Kurds, or am some sort of ISIS shill. It's an observation, and lets keep some perspective to things - it's a war, crimes will be committed by all sides.

    Young woman probably aren't flocking to join because 1) they are poorly equipped 2) they aren't very effective 3) they keep dying 4) they have young families to look after.

    Britain should keep out of the conflict completely.

    What are you, a computer that runs only on logic or a human being with a conscience and beating heart? You miss the point somewhat, I think. About the Kurdish forces fighting ISIS, it is not a question of effectiveness?! They are fighting insurmountable odds. Their bravery should be commended by you. They are the persecuted trying to kill a cruel monster! That is the simple truth of the dynamic. You sound like someone who would prefer to back the winning side because it's winning. Yes, Obama is supporting Isis by playing both sides, however intentional or not. He and his White House administration should be better than they are. I cannot forgive them for funding jihadists. That's shaking hands with the devil and trying to play God to make a particular (possible) outcome. Astoundingly brainless tactic too.
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    (Original post by woIfie)
    Err, the US is arming the YPG.

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/201...air-drops-arms

    And the US has provided massive air support to them. You want to see that support ended, don't you? Or is it easier to pretend it doesn't exist because then you don't seem so obviously hypocritical by supporting the Kurds enemies while claiming to be left-wing
    I'm confused by your comments. I don't care about Left Wing/Right Wing here (and by the way I'm not Left Wing) but in the YPG/YPJ case I like them. I know the US is helping them but how come the documentaries show them with weapons of the 1960's? Yes the US are bombing targets but has it been enough I wonder? Also you must be aware by now that the US monetary arms funding is ending up in jihadist hands. The US should be giving arms directly to the YPG/YPJ but PROBABLY, I would surmise that that is because of Turkey who is a huge military power that the US wants to keep on reasonable diplomatic terms with, and who hate and want to destroy Kurdistan. I like the US for doing the good that they do but they have a mixed way of showing it were ISIS is concerned.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    It could. The EU could admit Turkey to membership, and Merkel has been making positive noises about that recently in trying to deal with the mess she caused by opening Germany's doors to the Syrians and other migrants in an uncontrolled way.

    Can you imagine the damage that having Turkey in the EU could do to Europe, with its citizens given rights to live and work?
    Hopefully that will not happen. But yes I realise the threat and dread this. Turkey is not even in ******* Europe anyway. The fact they are even considering it expresses the level of corruption and lies of the EU vision. They wont come out directly and just say what the vision and goal of the EU is. Bye bye nation states. open the borders. Big Brother social control. None thinking automaton populations conditioned by poltical correctness not to think.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Sorry, thought you were implying the old 'USA created the Taliban' cliche. So how does that all tie in to western foreign policy then? Specifically that the west shouldn't have intervened in Afghanistan.
    The west shouldn't have funded the mujahideen when the soviet union was about to collapse with or without afghanistan. I think that the taliban wouldn't have become what they were if it wasn't for the circumstances they were living in at the time.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    The west shouldn't have funded the mujahideen when the soviet union was about to collapse with or without afghanistan. I think that the taliban wouldn't have become what they were if it wasn't for the circumstances they were living in at the time.
    Benefit of hindsight though, no?
    At the time surely it was a sound strategic decision? Maybe America should have simply taken a greater role in the post-Soviet nation building.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Benefit of hindsight though, no?
    At the time surely it was a sound strategic decision? Maybe America should have simply taken a greater role in the post-Soviet nation building.
    That's true. Although I think it was fairly evident what was about to happen to the USSR... Afghanistan was a desperate grab.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    That's true. Although I think it was fairly evident what was about to happen to the USSR... Afghanistan was a desperate grab.
    It wasn't apparent to anyone in 1980 that the USSR would collapse.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    Although I think it was fairly evident what was about to happen to the USSR
    Not to those of us around at the time, it wasn't.
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    (Original post by Marco1)
    What are you, a computer that runs only on logic or a human being with a conscience and beating heart? You miss the point somewhat, I think. About the Kurdish forces fighting ISIS, it is not a question of effectiveness?! They are fighting insurmountable odds. Their bravery should be commended by you. They are the persecuted trying to kill a cruel monster! That is the simple truth of the dynamic. You sound like someone who would prefer to back the winning side because it's winning. Yes, Obama is supporting Isis by playing both sides, however intentional or not. He and his White House administration should be better than they are. I cannot forgive them for funding jihadists. That's shaking hands with the devil and trying to play God to make a particular (possible) outcome. Astoundingly brainless tactic too.

    Enlighten me on this support that Obama is currently giving Jihadists. Don't link me air drops that have fell off course into enemy hands, or the equipment given to the legitimate secular FSA a few years ago before it pretty much disbanded itself and lost. I need proof of deliberate support that has happened within the last month or year.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    That's part of my point. They're a pashtun nationalist group with islamist tendencies, which were mainly used to win support from other sunni self-described islamist countries like saudi arabia in the war against the USSR. I do not like or promote the taliban. They murdered over 10000 of my fellow shia adherents in afghanistan, wiping out entire villages.


    Always laugh when Pashtuns say America should have left the Taliban government alone, it's pretty easy to say keep things the same when it's your ethnic group which dominates the government.
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    (Original post by The Rad Prince)
    Always laugh when Pashtuns say America should have left the Taliban government alone, it's pretty easy to say keep things the same when it's your ethnic group which dominates the government.
    I'm not pashtuun. I have a teeny bit of pashtuun blood that I usually forget about, but that's it. I only think the taliban should have been left there while the northern alliance was funded and aided, with war discouraged so that over time the country might recoalesce as the taliban evolved once their political descendants encountered real educations.
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    (Original post by Hasan_Ahmed)
    I'm not pashtuun. I have a teeny bit of pashtuun blood that I usually forget about, but that's it. I only think the taliban should have been left there while the northern alliance was funded and aided, with war discouraged so that over time the country might recoalesce as the taliban evolved once their political descendants encountered real educations.
    I didn't mean you, I saw you said you were Shia so it's pretty obvious they're not exactly going to be your favourite people, I just meant when non-Afghan Pashtuns (especially Pakistanis) constantly apologise for the Taliban, as if they were misunderstood good guys fighting against foreign oppressors rather than oppressive racists.
 
 
 
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