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    (Original post by Drewski)
    But 'they' can easily counter that the UK is one of only a few EU countries that has come out of the recession. So if the EU is so helpful, why hasn't everyone else come out?

    Are we doing fine because of the EU, or are we doing fine despite the EU? Might we be able to do better than fine if we weren't in the EU?

    I'll say up front that I don't think anyone can actually answer those questions with certainty - it's all guesswork - but the fact is those questions definitely exist. Pretending they don't doesn't do you any favours.
    There are far more factors affecting an economy than just EU membership. Not every economy was the same to begin with, which is why they aren't the same now. There will always be some economies doing better than others, that in absolutely no way remotely implies that they wouldn't be doing worse outside the EU.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    There are far more factors affecting an economy than just EU membership. Not every economy was the same to begin with, which is why they aren't the same now. There will always be some economies doing better than others, that in absolutely no way remotely implies that they wouldn't be doing worse outside the EU.
    Exactly. Because there are so many factors affecting the economy the suggestion that leaving or staying will definitely do x is nothing more than guesswork. Which was my point.

    You can say all you like about what you think the case will be, but the point is you don't know, so your guesswork is no more valid than anyone else's.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Exactly. Because there are so many factors affecting the economy the suggestion that leaving or staying will definitely do x is nothing more than guesswork. Which was my point.

    You can say all you like about what you think the case will be, but the point is you don't know, so your guesswork is no more valid than anyone else's.
    Correct and when body's come out and say that in the medium term leaving could lower Gpd by 0.6% or raise it by 0.8% who cares?


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    I am convinced.
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    I'd just like to point out for anyone still undecided that the leaders of both the Brussels AND Paris terrorist attacks were born and lived their whole lives in Brussels. The Leave campaign were quick to politicise the attacks and blame EU free movement and the refugee crisis, when in fact that had absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    I'd just like to point out for anyone still undecided that the leaders of both the Brussels AND Paris terrorist attacks were born and lived their whole lives in Brussels. The Leave campaign were quick to politicise the attacks and blame EU free movement and the refugee crisis, when in fact that had absolutely nothing to do with it whatsoever.
    If like to point out to watch last weeks panorama is that case


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    Bump as the referendum is getting close! It'd be good to see some more remain voters sharing why they want to stay!
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Bump as the referendum is getting close! It'd be good to see some more remain voters sharing why they want to stay!
    I think part of the problem with some people who want to vote leave is that they're only listening to the side they want to. Go back 6 months and I wanted to leave the EU and thought that it was the worst thing that had happened to the UK in a long time. But that perspective can only be validated if you merely look at the surface of what the EU does.
    If we leave the EU, we will lose 3.5 million jobs. That is 1 in 10 jobs that are directly linked to our membership of the single market. Some leave campaigners claim that we could stay in the single market, but that would require us to keep freedom of movement, so we might as well stay. Some also say that we could negotiate a trade relationship. I think this is unlikely though because we have already upset the leaders of the EU by even suggesting leaving.
    Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries. Also, as the government is still trying to abolish the Human Rights Act, I feel like we need the EU to protect people from this.
    I could go on, but expect that it's all been mentioned already. Simply put, vote to stay. We can leave in the future if it no longer benefits us, but we won't be able to rejoin. It's a one way process.
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    its bare funny uno cos bare man start arguing on this forum when dis thread disproves everything they say
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    (Original post by metasysta)
    I think part of the problem with some people who want to vote leave is that they're only listening to the side they want to. Go back 6 months and I wanted to leave the EU and thought that it was the worst thing that had happened to the UK in a long time. But that perspective can only be validated if you merely look at the surface of what the EU does.
    If we leave the EU, we will lose 3.5 million jobs. That is 1 in 10 jobs that are directly linked to our membership of the single market. Some leave campaigners claim that we could stay in the single market, but that would require us to keep freedom of movement, so we might as well stay. Some also say that we could negotiate a trade relationship. I think this is unlikely though because we have already upset the leaders of the EU by even suggesting leaving.
    Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries. Also, as the government is still trying to abolish the Human Rights Act, I feel like we need the EU to protect people from this.
    I could go on, but expect that it's all been mentioned already. Simply put, vote to stay. We can leave in the future if it no longer benefits us, but we won't be able to rejoin. It's a one way process.
    Seriously what the hell are you on


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    (Original post by paul514)
    Seriously what the hell are you on


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    it aint that hard, i live in east london and i got it
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    1. Immigration - one word - Turkey. Up until now we have seen a relatively steady (yet large) influx and outflux of migrants from the EU. With Turkey joining the EU, no one can honestly say that the increase in immigration will be any less than noticeable and worrying.

    2. Money to the EU -
    (Original post by JordanL_)
    We actually paid £18 billion, and we received over half of it back.
    It is a fact we paid £7.1bn more into the EU than we got out - this is including subsidies in the private sector as well as the public sector. So where has the tax payer's £7,100,000,000 gone?

    3. Trade
    No one shall dispute the fact we trade a lot with the EU. But we are a bigger asset to them than we are to us.- Over the last ten years all EU countries other than three sold more to us than they bought from us—Ireland, Luxembourg, and Malta. (see here) They need us, thus if we were to leave they would be fast to make trade agreements which would allow the same levels of trade.

    4. Free Movement
    Yes, movement will likely be less fluid than it currently is - however, this is a necessity if we want the ability to control our own borders, which we currently cannot.

    5. EU and Our Rights
    While it's true many rights do come from the EU, if we were to leave, we would likely reinforce these rights, or those that are suitable with British Legislation.

    To summarize, with the exception of point 4, your argument is effectively invalid.
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    (Original post by paul514)
    Seriously what the hell are you on


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    I'm not on anything. I've just concluded what I said.

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    (Original post by metasysta)
    I'm not on anything. I've just concluded what I said.

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    You !might want to approach Cameron for a job, you make him look sensible and well informed on the matter.

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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    What? You can still move to France, Spain or Germany. Now you can also move to Poland or Romania.



    What numbers? Net migration is less than 200,000 from the EU. The UK is 53rd in the world for Population Density. In no way are we overpopulated.



    I never said that. I said we get a large portion back of what we put in. We also receive money directly and indirectly in the form of various subsidies and grants. A huge amount of research funding in the UK comes from the European Budget. We also get to benefit from scientific developments made in other countries that couldn't happen without that funding. We also benefit hugely in economic terms. 15% of our GDP is from EU exports, which far outweighs what we put into the EU. (15% of our GDP is £300 billion).



    How does this mean we could get a similar deal?
    England has the highest population density of any major eu country.
    Brilliant stat saying we are 53rd but leaving out the fact the top places are tiny like Monaco (population of 37,800), Vatican City (800) and Bermuda (66,449)

    Excluding Bangladesh the uk has 18,366,596 more residents than the top 20 places with the highest population density
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    (Original post by metasysta)
    Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries. Also, as the government is still trying to abolish the Human Rights Act, I feel like we need the EU to protect people from this.

    If we leave the EU, we will lose 3.5 million jobs. That is 1 in 10 jobs that are directly linked to our membership of the single market. Some leave campaigners claim that we could stay in the single market, but that would require us to keep freedom of movement, so we might as well stay.

    Some also say that we could negotiate a trade relationship. I think this is unlikely though because we have already upset the leaders of the EU by even suggesting leaving.

    I could go on, but expect that it's all been mentioned already. Simply put, vote to stay. We can leave in the future if it no longer benefits us, but we won't be able to rejoin. It's a one way process.
    It's also enshrined by the Equality Act 2010, so that's a moot point.
    Britons in other EU countries would still be protected by the EU legislation, so again irrelevant.
    Abolish the HRA and replace with a bill of rights though, it's not as if it's just an abolition of human rights.

    Where can you prove that 3.5 million jobs will be lost? If I recall it's that 3.5 million jobs are linked to our trade with the EU. It doesn't mean they will all disappear because a country has left a political union. Not to mention we'd still be inside for an additional ~2 years as we negotiate an exit.

    Some say. Who hasn't said? Who has ever ruled out there being a trade deal? It's a mutually beneficial thing to do.

    That's not true either, you can rejoin later but treated as a [new] applicant country.
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    (Original post by metasysta)
    I think part of the problem with some people who want to vote leave is that they're only listening to the side they want to. Go back 6 months and I wanted to leave the EU and thought that it was the worst thing that had happened to the UK in a long time. But that perspective can only be validated if you merely look at the surface of what the EU does.
    If we leave the EU, we will lose 3.5 million jobs. That is 1 in 10 jobs that are directly linked to our membership of the single market. Some leave campaigners claim that we could stay in the single market, but that would require us to keep freedom of movement, so we might as well stay. Some also say that we could negotiate a trade relationship. I think this is unlikely though because we have already upset the leaders of the EU by even suggesting leaving.
    Equal pay for men and women is enshrined in EU law, as are bans on discrimination by age, race or sexual orientation. This benefits Britain and British people who live in other EU countries. Also, as the government is still trying to abolish the Human Rights Act, I feel like we need the EU to protect people from this.
    I could go on, but expect that it's all been mentioned already. Simply put, vote to stay. We can leave in the future if it no longer benefits us, but we won't be able to rejoin. It's a one way process.
    Yes the eu are going to sacrifice themselves to punish us.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    Yes the eu are going to sacrifice themselves to punish us.
    I didn't say that, no.

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    (Original post by metasysta)
    I didn't say that, no.

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    You said "Some also say that we could negotiate a trade relationship. I think this is unlikely though because we have already upset the leaders of the EU by even suggesting leaving." that would be the EU sacrificing itself to punish us as they are already on the decline.
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    (Original post by joecphillips)
    You said "Some also say that we could negotiate a trade relationship. I think this is unlikely though because we have already upset the leaders of the EU by even suggesting leaving." that would be the EU sacrificing itself to punish us as they are already on the decline.
    They wouldn't be sacrificing themselves, there are plenty of other countries they can trade with.

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