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    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    You're moral reasoning is broken.

    If you disagree, then when your woman catches you with another woman all you have to do is say this:

    “I know what I did was wrong, but my friend Joe has been cheating on his wife WAY LONGER than me.

    And he beats her too. Please keep that in mind!”

    And if she continues to be angry at you, say this: “Why are you so angry at me but not at my friend? I mean, he is way worse than me! You are being unfair.”

    I know no one who has been affected by the Arab slave trade nor do I live in a country that has been shaped and continues to be shaped by that trade. That is quite untrue about the Atlantic slave trade.
    And because you're not affected by the Arab slave trade it doesn't matter? That's ridiculous logic. You can't label one group as racists (for something which none of us alive today had anything to do with) and just ignore the other. My original question still hasn't been answered, instead you've attempted to deflect it. So I'll ask again. How do the actions of people who're long dead have any reflection on those alive today? Why are we labeled as racists because of something that none of us alive today did?
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    There might be a few as good as our, but do non white countries have open door policies like we do?
    What 'open door' policy? America have a very strict process for gaining nationality and getting into australia on the basis of a points system is hardly open door. Canada are strict too.

    The UK arent part of the Shengen and groups like UKIP gained popularity ( 2nd most voted party) because they said we'll completely shut our borders.

    U people want to sound like 'we whites are doing a big favour for you'
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    This crying about slavery has to stop, it was a horrible thing yes, it was not just whites. Very very few people actually own slaves now and if they do in the west it is against the law, so stop blaming whites for what our ancestors did.

    We don't look at Germans and call them all part of the nazi regime because their ancestors might have been
    This.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    Why are we labeled as racists because of something that none of us alive today did?
    Your victimising yourself here, no one is calling you racist because of that, dont be stupid
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Counterfactual history is entertainment for the masses, not a serious academic pursuit. You can argue that white people face their own issues if you want, but the Arabic slave trade isn't one of them, so when people talk about the historical effects the Atlantic slave trade has had on modern day African Americans, it's ignorant nonsense to bring it up as if to say 'look, it happened to us too!'. Black people in America face their own unique issues; BLM is them doing something about it.
    the masses don't enjoy computationally generated simulations of events with changed variables.

    Well, Arab expansion and slavery of Europeans led to the crusades that saved Europe from extinction.

    WHat do we get taught about the Crusades? White people went and attacked the nice arabs look how evil you are feel ashamed.
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Lol who abused white people? You should educate yourself on the black lives matter movement. In as much as the gun laws in America allow racist killings to be perpetuated, BLM is aimed more at the police. Are there not black, asian etc police officers? I honestly do not get what you are trying to achieve with this thread but fine, do you.

    PS: You should watch the OJ Simpson story and pay special attention to police officer, Mark Fuhrman. Maybe then you would understand the importance of BLM.
    If I were you I wouldn't have used OJ Simpson as a defender of black movements. He was a guilty psychopath.
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    (Original post by darkvibes)
    What 'open door' policy? America have a very strict process for gaining nationality and getting into australia on the basis of a points system is hardly open door. Canada are strict too.

    The UK arent part of the Shengen and groups like UKIP gained popularity ( 2nd most voted party) because they said we'll completely shut our borders.

    U people want to sound like 'we whites are doing a big favour for you'
    Yeah, people want control of their borders, but never surely you can't argue that as it stands in the UK, this is one of the most accepting immegration policies in history?
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    Yeah, people want control of their borders, but never surely you can't argue that as it stands in the UK, this is one of the most accepting immegration policies in history?
    He is right, if it is a good thing or not is another question
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    Yeah, people want control of their borders, but never surely you can't argue that as it stands in the UK, this is one of the most accepting immegration policies in history?
    The UK has an economy driven by immigrant workers, we need immigration. The moment it becomes a burden, we seize control of our borders and people support people like UKIP that want to shut up our borders and deny visas to non EU citizens.

    I hardly call that accepting
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    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    This crying about slavery has to stop, it was a horrible thing yes,
    It was a white person who brought up slavery. If you don't want to talk about slavery then white people should not bring it up. But if you mention it, then you better believe then I'm going to give counter arguments to the usual "Africans sold their own" "Arabs sold them" points that always come up.

    (Original post by AperfectBalance)
    it was not just whites. Very very few people actually own slaves now and if they do in the west it is against the law, so stop blaming whites for what our ancestors did.
    The statement by itself istrue for most whites: even back in slave days in 1860 fewer than 2% of whites owned slaves. Slaves cost way too much for most people and in half the country it was against the law.

    The trouble with the statementis not its truth but how it is used: to cut white people off from history. When you say black people live in the past and need to give the slave thing a rest, you are making the very same argument : History does not matter.
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    (Original post by darkvibes)
    Your victimising yourself here, no one is calling you racist because of that, dont be stupid
    I was referring to white people in general being labeled as racist because of something horrible that our ancestors did, which those of us living nowadays had nothing to do with. It happens a lot, you can see that just by looking at the pages of this thread.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    I was referring to white people in general being labeled as racist because of something horrible that our ancestors did, which those of us living nowadays had nothing to do with. It happens a lot, you can see that just by looking at the pages of this thread.
    dont be silly, no one has done that here smh
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    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    It was a white person who brought up slavery. If you don't want to talk about slavery then white people should not bring it up. But if you mention it, then you better believe then I'm going to give counter arguments to the usual "Africans sold their own" "Arabs sold them" points that always come up.

    The statement by itself istrue for most whites: even back in slave days in 1860 fewer than 2% of whites owned slaves. Slaves cost way too much for most people and in half the country it was against the law.

    The trouble with the statementis not its truth but how it is used: to cut white people off from history. When you say black people live in the past and need to give the slave thing a rest, you are making the very same argument : History does not matter.

    I dont mind talking about slavery but saying that we still have anything to do with is stupid, i am not saying that you said this but I know quite a few people who still think this.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    How do the actions of people who're long dead have any reflection on those alive today? Why are we labeled as racists because of something that none of us alive today did?
    You talk like once slavery ended then racism just stopped.

    It does not matter if you did not do it. Or if you was not around back then.

    If one has reaped the benefits of those past injustices (to say nothing of ongoing discrimination in the present) by being elevated, politically, economically and socially above blk people, for example (which whites as a group surely have been thanks to enslavement, Jim Crow in USA) then whether or not one did the deed becomes largely a matter of irrelevance.

    The central impact of the African Transatlantic Slave trade you brush aside is the legacy.

    And it’s that legacy that connects us and everyone else posting in this forum today and will continue until the day it’s resolved or addressed.

    You cannot (and here is the challenge if you are up for it) - point to any other form of slavery (present, past or pre-historic) that has had such an immense and global impact on this planet than the African Holocaust

    The outcome of that operation is the crucial factor which in terms of scale and magnitude has gone unsurpassed and has had a profound effect on millions worldwide. Not just because of slavery, that was just the starting point. But because white supremacy would not allow themselves to see blacks as humans and it carried on long after the slave trade was abolished.

    Although the slave trade was abolished, slavery was not. So whites who wanted to do the cool thing at the time and be progressive said ” Sure, we’ll stop bringing slaves over from Africa, but I’ll be damned if I give up the ones raising my children and tending my land.”
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think the figures for total slavery in the Arab world often quoted are difficult to assess, there is a lot of hype in that area and not so much accurate demographic research.

    I said (which you ignored) that there was serious cruelty against slaves in both domains, my argument was that it was industrialised and systematic in the Americas whereas it was less so in the Arab world. I've based that view on years of reading books in the subject, we could go to sources but it will be tedious - suffice to say that in this area I've learned that there is a lot of hot air from Islamophobes on web forums claiming the Arabs were worse when in fact they were probably less oppressive overall, albeit marginally in some cases.

    The work to death system I mentioned was chiefly practised in British colonial plantations in places like Trinidad and in the Spanish-designed slave systems of Brazil - in both cases, for more than a century there was a built-in assumption that fresh slaves could always be found cheaply and that it was therefore more profitable to work slaves to death rapidly rather than look after them beyond the bare minimum. The policies evolved in both territories as slave economics changed and the supply of new slaves became more expensive and the crop picking more demanding and specialised.
    There is a reason why there are communities of the descendants of former slaves in the Americas but not in North Africa. Your statements are contradictory, first you say that there is not enough clear information, and then your saying the Arabs treated their slaves better. You are quite simply wrong. You racism is clear for all to see.
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    (Original post by neldee95)
    Lol who abused white people? You should educate yourself on the black lives matter movement. In as much as the gun laws in America allow racist killings to be perpetuated, BLM is aimed more at the police. Are there not black, asian etc police officers? I honestly do not get what you are trying to achieve with this thread but fine, do you.

    PS: You should watch the OJ Simpson story and pay special attention to police officer, Mark Fuhrman. Maybe then you would understand the importance of BLM.
    Why do people think police brutality is only an issue for black people? According to the American Bureau of Justice, from 2003 to 2006 (most recent available) 1,134 white people were victims of arrest-related deaths in the US compared to 834 blacks (http://www.bjs.gov/content/dcrp/tables/dcst06let3.pdf). Police brutality is not a white vs. black issue, it is a law enforcement vs. civilian issue. I don't claim to know about issues of race in the UK, but I do know quite a bit about these issues in the US. It's not only blacks that are getting harassed, beaten and killed by police - it's everyone across the spectrum of every ethnicity.

    Imagine the impact we could make if we all banded together as CITIZENS, regardless of color, and addressed the problem as a united front against law enforcement's ******** ego-driven disregard for human life.
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    (Original post by The_Opinion)
    There is a reason why there are communities of the descendants of former slaves in the Americas but not in North Africa. Your statements are contradictory, first you say that there is not enough clear information, and then your saying the Arabs treated their slaves better. You are quite simply wrong. You racism is clear for all to see.
    And you are busy ignoring what I'm saying. I already said that the work to death policies were most widely practised during the earlier period in Brazil and in the Caribbean - in the US mainland it was less the case, although very large numbers of slaves did also die from maltreatment, disease, poor diet and overwork in that territory. Later in the period of slavery the work to death situation was relaxed as the economics of slavery changed (repeating this bit as you didn't bother to read it before) and thus we have slave descendants.

    However, your slave descendant argument also ignores the very widespread practise (in all domains of the Americas) of white masters forcibly taking black women slaves and so large numbers of the 'slave descendants' now seen in, for example, the US, also have European ancestors. The fact that you ignore that or are ignorant of such a central fact speaks volumes for your general lack of knowledge about this subject.
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    (Original post by banterboy)
    the masses don't enjoy computationally generated simulations of events with changed variables.

    Well, Arab expansion and slavery of Europeans led to the crusades that saved Europe from extinction.

    WHat do we get taught about the Crusades? White people went and attacked the nice arabs look how evil you are feel ashamed.
    But they certainly enjoy 'historical what ifs'. The most generous description of couterfactual history you can give, is that it is a recent and controversial trend of historiography that has yet to find mainstream academic acceptance. It certainly isn't considered by most to be an academically rigorous means of historical inquiry.

    I have never once been taught to feel shame over the Crusades, and I have a degree in medieval history. As for the Crusades being a response to slavery and saving Europe from extinction? Oh boy. I think this is where this debate ends for me.
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    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    If one has reaped the benefits of those past injustices (to say nothing of ongoing discrimination in the present) by being elevated, politically, economically and socially above blk people, for example (which whites as a group surely have been thanks to enslavement, Jim Crow in USA) then whether or not one did the deed becomes largely a matter of irrelevance.
    Mate, I can't speak for America but here in Britain if anything it's the other way around. Black people receive many legal protections that white people don't. They have quotas which greatly increase the chances of them getting jobs compared to white people with the same qualifications as them. They don't receive any racism at all, yet white people are shunned by other ethnicities all the time. The list goes on and on.

    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    The central impact of the African Transatlantic Slave trade you brush aside is the legacy.

    And it’s that legacy that connects us and everyone else posting in this forum today and will continue until the day it’s resolved or addressed.
    I agree with you. One of the effects of that legacy is people being racist towards white people and then using the slave trade as an excuse to do it. Like all the other effects this needs to be addressed.

    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    You cannot (and here is the challenge if you are up for it) - point to any other form of slavery (present, past or pre-historic) that has had such an immense and global impact on this planet than the African Holocaust
    Um, I hate to break it to you but I can. The Nazi holocaust has had huge effects on Europe and if the crusades hadn't happened the demographics of the planet would look very different from today. White people wouldn't exist and most of the world's population would be Muslim. The crusades put an end to the European holocaust, without which you wouldn't have a fraction of the healthcare, jobs or technology you have now.

    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    The outcome of that operation is the crucial factor which in terms of scale and magnitude has gone unsurpassed and has had a profound effect on millions worldwide. Not just because of slavery, that was just the starting point. But because white supremacy would not allow themselves to see blacks as humans and it carried on long after the slave trade was abolished.
    Like I said, not in Britain. I'd appreciate it if you refrained from using the term "white people" and instead said "some white Americans" because at least that way we can start to correct the assumption that all white people think they're superior and then the anti-white racism will gradually fade too.

    (Original post by PrincePaul657777)
    Although the slave trade was abolished, slavery was not. So whites who wanted to do the cool thing at the time and be progressive said ” Sure, we’ll stop bringing slaves over from Africa, but I’ll be damned if I give up the ones raising my children and tending my land.”
    Yea, and those people were barbaric idiots. But that has nothing to do with white people today.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    But they certainly enjoy 'historical what ifs'. The most generous description of couterfactual history you can give, is that it is a recent and controversial trend of historiography that has yet to find mainstream academic acceptance. It certainly isn't considered by most to be an academically rigorous means of historical inquiry.

    I have never once been taught to feel shame over the Crusades, and I have a degree in medieval history. As for the Crusades being a response to slavery and saving Europe from extinction? Oh boy. I think this is where this debate ends for me.
    Nevertheless, you need to think about what the consequences of actions actually are before you say "they couldn't have been any other way"

    Educate me on the crusades. I would have thought that Having most of Christendom be taken over would provoke some response?
 
 
 
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