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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I'm not twisting your words, just informing you that those who leave Islam don't always do so because they're uneducated or ignorant. It is possible to know a lot about Islam and still reject it.
    You didn't have to inform me. I didn't group them all with the same reason hence I know that there are various reasons for leaving Islam.
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    Seeing as this argument is solely up to interpretation, here's my take on it (and I've grown up in a family with similar view to mine):

    Religion should = logic.
    Is it logical that just muslims go to heaven?
    No.
    Unbelievers doesn't necessarily mean non-muslims. An unbeliever is a person who does not believe in God. Of course if they've not been exposed to the idea of God then they have their own situation.
    I mean, it's fine to be agnostic because it's a state of confusion.
    Every person gets judged on how they lead their religious life-style or non-religious life style.

    And again, beating wives is irrational, read the arabic version with 500 AD understanding of arabic.
    But then the one being illogical according to your own religion is you because you are making up your own reasons and interpretations which are not only absent in the Quran, but actually go against it. And if you believe the Quran is the perfect word of Allah then you are defying him and saying he is wrong which is a major sin in Islam.

    The translation clearly says that beating wives is permissible and many if not most scholars support this interpretation. If you are saying the Arabic is wrong then the burden is on you to show this.
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    (Original post by Cobalt_)
    You know when you grow up and stop believing in the tooth fairy or Santa.

    Same thing, there comes a time where you have to let your imaginary friends go.
    are you an atheist
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    So you don't believe that it's the unchanged word of Allah that is divinely protected from alterations? Congratulations, you're a kafir now. :teehee: :lol:



    One sign of when to concede a point is when you find yourself confronted with an argument that you have no answer to, but instinctively feel/want that an answer will materialise at a later date. It's no use looking it up later on IslamQA or some other site and coming back with a prescribed response - it would just show that you subscribe totally to a religion that you don't understand in its entirety.
    Lol, get out of my pants.
    I have exams next week and I didn't say I would argue, I asked very politely for a verse and said I'd look into it later.
    Also, I'm using logic here and it's inevitable there would have been change in the words. Who are you to tell me I'm kafir?
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    So you don't believe that it's the word of Allah, unchanged over the centuries, that is divinely protected from alterations? Congratulations, you're a kafir now. :teehee: :lol:



    One sign of when to concede a point is when you find yourself confronted with an argument that you have no answer to, but instinctively feel/want that an answer will materialise at a later date. It's no use looking it up later on IslamQA or some other site and coming back with a prescribed response - it would just show that you subscribe totally to a religion that you don't understand in its entirety.
    By doing this he also evidences Flew who says that God dies the death of a thousand qualifications, every time a religious believer claims something they don't allow it to be falsified and change their original claim if given evidence to the contrary therefore religious language is factually meaningless


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    (Original post by M14B)
    Interesting take
    NO, it's a dumb take since it is not an imaginary friend but a belief in a more superior being
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    But then the one being illogical according to your own religion is you because you are making up your own reasons and interpretations which are not only absent in the Quran, but actually go against it. And if you believe the Quran is the perfect word of Allah then you are defying him and saying he is wrong which is a major sin in Islam.

    The translation clearly says that beating wives is permissible and many if not most scholars support this interpretation. If you are saying the Arabic is wrong then the burden is on you to show this.
    I'm not making up my own reasons. I'm allowed to interpret the quran how I want just like I'm allowed to interpret any piece of literature how I want. There's not just one way that is the perfect way of obeying God or being a good religious person there are as many ways as there are people. Everyone has their own way of understanding.
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    I'm not making up my own reasons. I'm allowed to interpret the quran how I want just like I'm allowed to interpret any piece of literature how I want. There's not just one way that is the perfect way of obeying God or being a good religious person there are as many ways as there are people. Everyone has their own way of understanding.
    I'd argue that you're not interpreting the Quran by saying that, but making those excuses out of thin air. If not then can you please provide the specific verses that say non-Muslims who know about Islam and still reject it will go to heaven?
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    I have exams next week
    Fair enough.

    and I didn't say I would argue, I asked very politely for a verse and said I'd look into it later.
    Not exactly - you said that something would surely turn up when you looked it up that would vindicate your position. All I'm saying is that when one finds oneself thinking like that, a little self-doubt doesn't go amiss.

    Also, I'm using logic here and it's inevitable there would have been change in the words.
    I agree. The majority of the scholars whom you hold in such high regard, however, don't.

    Who are you to tell me I'm kafir?
    I was kidding. I was hoping that would be implied by the :teehee: :lol: emojis.
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    (Original post by macsalaama)
    Of course I am, although I can see the "good" points the "bad" ones outweigh them.

    "It was narrated that Ibn 'Umar said:

    "When 'Umar bin Khattab was appointed caliph, he addressed the people and said: 'The Messenger of Allah permitted temporary marriage for us three times, then he forbade it. By Allah, If I hear of any married person entering a temporary marriage, I will stone him to death, unless he can bring me four witnesses who will testify that the Messenger of Allah, allowed it after he forbade it'." " This one isn't Sahih but Hasan(good)

    "
    Abu Dharr (Allah be pleased with him) said:

    Two are the Mut'as which were not permissible but only for us, i. e. temporary marriage with women and Tamattu' in Hajj. " Sahih Muslim






    The conditions are very basic.
    Openly leaving Islam and criticising Islam/Allah/Muhammad are enough to get you killed. Also, let's not kid ourselves with tired old excuse "there is no real Islamic State so the rule doesn't apply". Countries that implement Sharia law will execute apostates (and others like homosexuals) even if you're not open about it.

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    I repeat again there are no authentic hadith in favour of mutah. End.

    Whats you point with all this apostate killing thing when the required conditions are met, what are you trying to prove?
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    I'm not making up my own reasons. I'm allowed to interpret the quran how I want just like I'm allowed to interpret any piece of literature how I want. There's not just one way that is the perfect way of obeying God or being a good religious person there are as many ways as there are people. Everyone has their own way of understanding.
    Yes but why do you need to interpret a supposed piece of propositional revelation which is to be divinely inspired and thus infallible. Surely it should not be up for debate what the literature is saying? God, a 'perfect' being has written it after all through Muhammad (pbuh)


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    (Original post by *Alisha*)
    Dude, doesn't it make sense that life is a test? and that there would be evil?
    Yeah and I'm only 15 and it's been 2 years since I haven't prayed
    I use to get whispers....how about you go on the link below:
    https://islamqa.info/en/21052
    Have a nice day
    Study psychology.
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    (Original post by ozziew)
    Yes but why do you need to interpret a supposed piece of propositional revelation which is to be divinely inspired and thus infallible. Surely it should not be up for debate what the literature is saying? God, a 'perfect' being has written it after all through Muhammad (pbuh)


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    I think it should be up to debate. As times and eras change, the revelations meaning does too.
    There should always be a challenge in faith otherwise there will be no faith.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    I'd argue that you're not interpreting the Quran by saying that, but making those excuses out of thin air. If not then can you please provide the specific verses that say non-Muslims who know about Islam and still reject it will go to heaven?
    I don't care what you'd argue, to be fair.
    why would I make excuses?
    I'm telling you what I believe, lol.
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    I'm not making up my own reasons. I'm allowed to interpret the quran how I want just like I'm allowed to interpret any piece of literature how I want. There's not just one way that is the perfect way of obeying God or being a good religious person there are as many ways as there are people. Everyone has their own way of understanding.
    This is quite interesting. So, terrorist groups who have their own interpretation, are they islamically right in doing so? (Prominent scholars condemn them but you said religion is up for interpretation)
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    Seeing as this argument is solely up to interpretation, here's my take on it (and I've grown up in a family with similar view to mine):

    Religion should = logic.
    Is it logical that just muslims go to heaven?
    No.
    Unbelievers doesn't necessarily mean non-muslims. An unbeliever is a person who does not believe in God. Of course if they've not been exposed to the idea of God then they have their own situation.
    I mean, it's fine to be agnostic because it's a state of confusion.
    Every person gets judged on how they lead their religious life-style or non-religious life style.

    And again, beating wives is irrational, read the arabic version with 500 AD understanding of arabic.
    Logic is what threw satan out of heaven; the following is what Islam and Cristianity says:
    Satan did not bow to Adam since he felt the he is superior because he is made from fire and Adam is made from clay.
    Fair enough, people who are not introduced to the concept of God shall be excluded. The reason why in Islam they say only muslims go to heaven is because unlike other religions the religious scripture has not be changed between a modern copy and 200 year old copy.
    Most rulings in Islam are similar to the rules we have in place now e.g. The international humanitarian law, Hundreds of years before the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) introduced these rules.
    And regarding the beating of women, it is wholly unaccepted but there is some rulings which explain:
    right now you look at the literal meaning, but after looking at some sayings of the prophet(pbuh) the level of beating anyone is that your arm cannot be raised so high that the whiteness or hair of the is visible and can only be used as a last resort. even today scholars still emphasise that the beating of your spouse should not be considered so freely.
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    I don't care what you'd argue, to be fair.
    why would I make excuses?
    I'm telling you what I believe, lol.
    Yes, you're saying what you believe but providing no evidence that this is actually in the Quran.

    And it also directly contradicts it, you might like to read these verses that very clearly state that those who reject Allah's revelations will abide in Hell forever.

    Quran 41: 27 ~ But We will surely cause those who disbelieve to taste a severe punishment, and We will surely recompense them for the worst of what they had been doing.

    Quran 41:28 ~ That is the recompense of the enemies of Allah - the Fire. For them therein is the home of eternity as recompense for what they, of Our verses, were rejecting.
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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Fair enough.



    Not exactly - you said that something would surely turn up when you looked it up that would vindicate your position. All I'm saying is that when one finds oneself thinking like that, a little self-doubt doesn't go amiss.



    I agree. The majority of the scholars whom you hold in such high regard, however, don't.



    I was kidding. I was hoping that would be implied by the :teehee: :lol: emojis.
    Pff, I literally did not say that.
    I will look it up, which means reading through a bunch of arabic and english sources, parents and scholars then deciding what's right.
    That's a long process hence I wasn't going to come back and argue because by the time I'd done that I'd have lost the forum.

    lol.
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    (Original post by CorpusLuteum)
    I think it should be up to debate. As times and eras change, the revelations meaning does too.
    There should always be a challenge in faith otherwise there will be no faith.
    Faith, by definition, is belief without evidence. The very fact that you seek evidence would be frowned upon. Are you saying that the Qu' ran is out of date and needs updating or something? If that is what you imply then it is blasphemous as, as I've said, it is written by a perfect being who is thus omniscient, do you see how His nature causes problems for Himself? The fact that He is omniscient means that He would have provided sufficient information when He did first contact humanity through Muhammad (pbuh) on the night of power.


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    (Original post by Hydeman)
    Fair enough.



    Not exactly - you said that something would surely turn up when you looked it up that would vindicate your position. All I'm saying is that when one finds oneself thinking like that, a little self-doubt doesn't go amiss.



    I agree. The majority of the scholars whom you hold in such high regard, however, don't.



    I was kidding. I was hoping that would be implied by the :teehee: :lol: emojis.
    Lol you always need to break up and address every little phrase.
 
 
 
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