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The EU Out Campaign really amounts to Gove, Duncan-Smith and Norfolk watch

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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Are they working class? I would guess that the demographic of the typical UKIP voter is middle class, white and middle aged/elderly.
    Your guess is dead wrong. UKIP has by far the most working class support base of any political party. One of the reasons Labour is morally and electorally bankrupt.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ip-understands

    A left wing intellectual who has no knowledge of how the working class actually think and vote? Surely not?
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    (Original post by Aceadria)
    Interestingly, a lot of those areas are also hubs driving a variety of different industries.
    Which ones, the Remain or the Leave?

    I would say the Leave areas of the map reflect a combination of things, one is where the older people, especially retired white people are concentrated. Another is where disenfranchised white working class Tories who previously worked in declined industries are based. Also they just reflect to some extent the areas where Toryism in general holds sway. Most of those county seats are represented by Tory MPs.
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    (Original post by JezWeCan!)
    Your guess is dead wrong. UKIP has by far the most working class support base of any political party. One of the reasons Labour is morally and electorally bankrupt.

    http://www.theguardian.com/commentis...ip-understands

    A left wing intellectual who has no knowledge of how the working class actually think and vote? Surely not?
    It's a part of the working class - these are the 'left behinds', the ones for whom the social mobility of the last 50 years made no difference. Yes, they are 'working class', but more importantly, they are angry voters from Tory constituencies and from traditional working class Tory families. I don't doubt there's a smattering of ex-Labour in there as well, but generally they are the sort of Essex Man who used to vote for people like Norman Tebbit and who know feels disillusioned even with the Tory Party (they switched for Margaret and Norman and can't stand old Eton types like Dave) and so are available for relocation to the nearest right wing party that exudes the necessary levels of racism and loathing. Basically they are fodder for fascists.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    You've clearly never ventured too far from your ivory tower. East Anglia has a population of 6 million, considerably more than Scotland, and is 4 times more densely populated than it too. It has large towns and cities like Ipswich, Norwich, Colchester, Chelmsford, Luton, Southend and Bedford.
    To dismiss it as a rural backwater that should be ignored is highly insulting but thoroughly expected of the sneering, condescending left.
    I'm not even going to get started on the utter ridiculousness of your racism claim.
    Pretty much. It's funny how these types pride themselves on being "open-minded", "inclusive" and other such nonsense they imagine themselves to be when the reality is they're some of the most closed-minded people on the planet.

    Edit: case in point:

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's a part of the working class - these are the 'left behinds', the ones for whom the social mobility of the last 50 years made no difference. Yes, they are 'working class', but more importantly, they are angry voters from Tory constituencies and from traditional working class Tory families. I don't doubt there's a smattering of ex-Labour in there as well, but generally they are the sort of Essex Man who used to vote for people like Norman Tebbit and who know feels disillusioned even with the Tory Party (they switched for Margaret and Norman and can't stand old Eton types like Dave) and so are available for relocation to the nearest right wing party that exudes the necessary levels of racism and loathing. Basically they are fodder for fascists.
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    (Original post by DanteTheDoorKnob)
    George Galloway, Michael Foot, Tony Benn

    What do they all have in common?

    All anti-EU and far left.

    Who is the real sell out?
    Why would there be against the Eu? If the uk was not in the EU and it would be harder to import immigrants and that is not in their interest,
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Which ones, the Remain or the Leave?

    I would say the Leave areas of the map reflect a combination of things, one is where the older people, especially retired white people are concentrated. Another is where disenfranchised white working class Tories who previously worked in declined industries are based. Also they just reflect to some extent the areas where Toryism in general holds sway. Most of those county seats are represented by Tory MPs.
    I see. Being i favor of the workers is not moe left-wing.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I'm sure it's a fine county. I'm just not sure that it (and Essex) should determine the national agenda.
    Why not? I imagine if you ran a similar poll in 1930 (or today) canvassing positive opinion of Marxism you would see a similar distribution to positive opinion of the EU. Whom did history vindicate?
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Which ones, the Remain or the Leave?
    This map shows the percentage of people who are voting 'Leave'. A 20% vote in favour of the exiting the EU does not imply 80% will vote 'In'. My point was that the poll shows that majority 'Leave' areas are also important regions of industry.

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I would say the Leave areas of the map reflect a combination of things, one is where the older people, especially retired white people are concentrated.
    I'm not sure you can make such a clear statement. By the same logic, we can conclude that some of the 'whitest' areas of Northern England and Scotland are significantly against leaving the European Union. There is no correlation here between race and opinion.


    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Another is where disenfranchised white working class Tories who previously worked in declined industries are based. Also they just reflect to some extent the areas where Toryism in general holds sway. Most of those county seats are represented by Tory MPs.
    I agree but what's interesting is how small the differences are between Labour and Conservatives in some of these areas, e.g. Cumbria.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Why not? I imagine if you ran a similar poll in 1930 (or today) canvassing positive opinion of Marxism you would see a similar distribution to positive opinion of the EU. Whom did history vindicate?
    The EU hasn't been seen as left wing in the past, lest we forget, our membership was invoked by a Conservative Prime Minister after lots of previous attempts to join by previous Tory PMs. I think the key change was the post-Thatcher period in which right wing Tories who supported her linked the 'tragedy' of the 'backstabbing' of their beloved fuhrer, er, sorry, leader, with the evil pro-Europe people. However the real clincher has been that the EU showed signs of moving into tax territory and addressing the privileges that allow the City to carry out multiple predatory behaviours, including being fully involved in bringing about the massive financial crash, another thing we should perhaps not forget. The fact that the EU showed signs of wanting involvement in those areas triggered alarm bells for every oligarch from Moscow to Monaco and New York to Sydney and the media they controlled went into anti-EU overdrive.

    The rest - Sir James 'the loon' Goldsmith, his creation of what became UKIP, the rise of Farage and the desperation of Cameron to hold on, all descend from that fateful decision in Brussels.

    The thing is, it would be a good thing to have the City curtailed and brought under proper international regulation, but we are so blinded by corporate propaganda, it's hard for us to see that.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Again, it's actually the reverse. Districts that have the highest numbers of graduates are very much on the Remain camp. Whole swathes of middle class London for example which are hardly (as you put it in a racist way) "multicultural hellholes". Cambridgeshire and Oxfordshire both look decisively Remain, as does leafy Cheshire.
    That's because they don't look like parts of the Middle East where whites aren't welcome.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The EU hasn't been seen as left wing in the past, lest we forget, our membership was invoked by a Conservative Prime Minister after lots of previous attempts to join by previous Tory PMs.
    I am not saying the EU is bad because it is leftist. I am saying that the people who are saying the EU is great have been wrong before, all educational credentials aside.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's a part of the working class - these are the 'left behinds', the ones for whom the social mobility of the last 50 years made no difference. Yes, they are 'working class', .
    OK, so you now accept that when you wrote...

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Are they working class? I would guess that the demographic of the typical UKIP voter is middle class
    you were not being strictly correct? In the sense of being pretty much totally wrong?

    What the left needs to address is why the Labour Party, which came into existence as the Parliamentary representatives of the Trade Union movement (ie the working class by definition) and self identifies as the champion of the poor, oppressed (and yes "left behind") has so little resonance with that electorate? Why they don't feel they speak for them? Make them feel they have policies to help them "catch up"?

    Nearly four million voters at the last election were Labour's to grab, like fruit from the tree. Natural Labour voters, working class, hating the posh boy Tory Government.

    When you think that Labour only got 9.3 million votes you realise how decisive that was (although it almost passed under the radar because the meltdown in Scotland was so spectacular).

    How do they get them to vote Labour? I don't have the answer to that, but I think stopping calling them "fodder for fascism" would be a start...
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    The EU hasn't been seen as left wing in the past, lest we forget, our membership was invoked by a Conservative Prime Minister after lots of previous attempts to join by previous Tory PMs. I think the key change was the post-Thatcher period in which right wing Tories who supported her linked the 'tragedy' of the 'backstabbing' of their beloved fuhrer, er, sorry, leader, with the evil pro-Europe people. However the real clincher has been that the EU showed signs of moving into tax territory and addressing the privileges that allow the City to carry out multiple predatory behaviours, including being fully involved in bringing about the massive financial crash, another thing we should perhaps not forget. The fact that the EU showed signs of wanting involvement in those areas triggered alarm bells for every oligarch from Moscow to Monaco and New York to Sydney and the media they controlled went into anti-EU overdrive.

    The rest - Sir James 'the loon' Goldsmith, his creation of what became UKIP, the rise of Farage and the desperation of Cameron to hold on, all descend from that fateful decision in Brussels.

    The thing is, it would be a good thing to have the City curtailed and brought under proper international regulation, but we are so blinded by corporate propaganda, it's hard for us to see that.
    I'm happy to believe that, however it has to be noted that many oligarch/ogligarch-controlled have supported the IN campaign including Obama, Clinton, Sir Evelyn Rothschild, Goldman Sachs etc...

    so it seems this is a political war between two groups of oligarchs...

    Maybe there's more oligarchs towards...? maybe :dontknow:

    "Ба́ры деру́тся -- у холо́пов чубы́ треща́т.
    When the rich make war it's the poor that die." - Russian proverb
 
 
 
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