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Does anyone get sick of hearing about Hillsborough? watch

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    (Original post by hovado)
    Accidental cover-up? Interesting.
    What did they cover up? All the pertinent facts are contained in the 1992 Taylor Report.

    What has changed is that the police have been accused of homicide instead of merely failing to manage a dangerous situation optimally.
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    No. While it has no relevance to me, I'd be peed if my family had been affected by it and I feel for these individuals. How can you not? So either ignore it or show some compassion.
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    Looking for 19M in compensation now.
    They won't stop until the police involved are hanged.

    I'm sure a nice sports car will rid them of their grief.
    Jokers.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)


    You seem to mistaking lack of evidence for lack of existence. I've explained, using logic, why it is almost inevitable that fans didn't have tickets but still tried to get in. Even some of those who did have tickets either trespassed or ignored the area of the stand they had been allocated.
    It wasn't inevitable. The crush was caused by the opening of the gate and not cordoning off the tunnel. There is just no evidence that there were ticketless fans. None. They were directed into the pen which was already full.

    There was no counter evidence. Counter evidence would only have been possible if they had gone round and actually checked who had tickets and who didn't. There was evidence that the police said people didn't have tickets but didn't truly know how many did and how many didn't.
    In the absence of evidence you don't assume there was. You need to prove there was. The police officers in the inquest admitted they made up stories about thousands of ticketless fans.


    Stop making irrelevant comments. I haven't denied the police handled the situation badly, in fact I've explicitly said they did. The mistakes of the police are not what I'm contending, I'm arguing that some of the fans must bear some responsibility.
    Actually you did. Your first comment said it wouldn't have happened but for 'idiots without tickets'. That implies it was due to ticketless people yet there is no evidence that many let alone most of the 2000 people let through the gate did not have tickets.

    But how do you propose they announce it? Shout to 5,000 people?
    Announcements on tannoys, etc news would have filtered through. I'm not saying that would have solved it all but it would have helped ease peoples' desire to get in.

    That was a contributing factor but not the only cause. Had people not trespassed (both by jumping over the turnstiles and by going to a part of the stand that they weren't allocated) then there would have been less of a problem.
    It wasn't trespass. The POLICE opened the gate and directed people into the middle pen. There wasn't an allocation per pen like there is today. You were allocated an entrance and then chose which pen to go into.

    The police could see the middle pen was full yet didn't close it and direct people into the side pens which is what should have happened. It wasn't to do with people jumping turnstyles, the crush was entirely caused by thousands of people being let through the gate and not closing the pen.

    1. I'm not sure that's strictly true, I'm not aware of any case that has ever held that. 2. I said police don't have a duty to recognise the medical state of another person.
    It's not a duty inherent to the police. If you are dying and clearly in pain and I prevent an ambulance reaching you i've breached my duty because I have assumed responsibility. The police actively stopped the ambulances getting to people who were dying and had no good reason to do so.

    Yes because the police are partially responsible so it's only fair they do.
    So you are justify the police cover up, their destruction of evidence, their making up lies and perverting the course of justice?

    As I've said numerous times the supporters trespassed which worsened the situation.
    No they did not. Not at all. There is no evidence that they did. They did nothing wrong with regards to the crush. The fans arrived half an hour before kick off which is perfectly reasonable. The problem was there was only 7 turnstyles. 10,000 tickets were sold and there was 50000 in the ground and 5000 outside it. There were not lots of people without tickets.
    I don't see why you're so focused on the length of time. Inquests and trials go on for as long as it is seen necessary to examine the relevant evidence. Having a longer inquest or trial doesn't mean that a more thorough examination of the evidence has occurred it just means there was more presented.
    Thousands upon thousands of documents were examined. Hundreds of ye witness reports. The police themselves admitted responsibility, that they opened the gate, that they didn't delay the kick off when they should and that they made up lies to pin the blame on the supporters.

    Yet you, with no evidence whatsover think the supporters are to blame. Despite there being no evidence of the supporters in any way contributing and despite the inquest finding the police entirely responsible.

    Apparently you know more than the 296 day inquest. You know more than the thousands of documents, you know what no-one else does based on the fact you go to football matches today.

    Let me repeat, no evidence was found of mass peoples without tickets. There were no more people than could have been seated. There was plenty of room for everyone in the side pens yet the police directed everyone towards the main pen.


    You are arguing the supporters are to blame for coming without tickets but you have zero evidence of even a single person arriving without a ticket. Your 'logic' does not trump the huge bodies of documents and evidence which when weighed up simply showed no evidence of huge numbers of fans without tickets. None.
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    Seems like we are entering a new phase now as hundreds of compensation claims are being launched against the police, so it wont be ending any time soon, its just going into a different phase. I suspect they will wait till criminal proceedings are over, so it could sill be in the news 8,9,10 years from now.
    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...-millions.html

    It would be nice if the government put in further resources to speed this all along or just paid them compensation now. Some lawyers must have made a nice amount out of this.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It wasn't inevitable. The crush was caused by the opening of the gate and not cordoning off the tunnel. There is just no evidence that there were ticketless fans. None. They were directed into the pen which was already full.
    But there is evidence of trespassing. By climbing over the turnstile booth you are trespassing. By going in through gate c when it was opened to let someone out you are trespassing.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    In the absence of evidence you don't assume there was. You need to prove there was. The police officers in the inquest admitted they made up stories about thousands of ticketless fans.
    I agree but that isn't evidence that weren't lots of fans without tickets. It just shows that the police made a statement without evidence.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Actually you did. Your first comment said it wouldn't have happened but for 'idiots without tickets'. That implies it was due to ticketless people yet there is no evidence that many let alone most of the 2000 people let through the gate did not have tickets.
    Well is that not true? If those two thousand people had not been let in would the crush have occurred?

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Announcements on tannoys, etc news would have filtered through. I'm not saying that would have solved it all but it would have helped ease peoples' desire to get in.
    Well seeing as you're asking for evidence of the impossible I'll do the same: prove that announcing it over a tannoy (which may or may not even exist) would have helped.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It wasn't trespass. The POLICE opened the gate and directed people into the middle pen. There wasn't an allocation per pen like there is today. You were allocated an entrance and then chose which pen to go into.
    Climbing over the turnstile booth is trespass. Going in through the gate when it was opened to let someone out is trespass. Going to a place you weren't allocated is trespass.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The police could see the middle pen was full yet didn't close it and direct people into the side pens which is what should have happened. It wasn't to do with people jumping turnstyles, the crush was entirely caused by thousands of people being let through the gate and not closing the pen.
    You're denying that people illegally entering the premises contributed to the disaster...

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    It's not a duty inherent to the police. If you are dying and clearly in pain and I prevent an ambulance reaching you i've breached my duty because I have assumed responsibility. The police actively stopped the ambulances getting to people who were dying and had no good reason to do so.
    My point was the police likely didn't realise that people were literally dying. If I prevented an ambulance from reaching someone for no good reason, thinking they were only in pain not dying I would be responsible. If a policeman prevents an ambulance from getting to someone that's a different issue. Seeing as the families are the victims are now looking to cash in on the death of their family we'll find out from the wrongful death suit why the police prevented the ambulances

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    So you are justify the police cover up, their destruction of evidence, their making up lies and perverting the course of justice?
    Where have I tried to justify it?

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No they did not. Not at all. There is no evidence that they did. They did nothing wrong with regards to the crush. The fans arrived half an hour before kick off which is perfectly reasonable. The problem was there was only 7 turnstyles. 10,000 tickets were sold and there was 50000 in the ground and 5000 outside it. There were not lots of people without tickets.
    Is reasonable in respect to the the time they had to be in the stadium. However it's not reasonable in a practical sense. It's also not reasonable nor common for half of the fans in a particular area to all decide to only try and get in 20 minutes prior to kick off. You're saying there weren't lots of people without tickets but you have no more proof than I do. The fact is nobody knows how many people didn't have tickets.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Thousands upon thousands of documents were examined. Hundreds of ye witness reports. The police themselves admitted responsibility, that they opened the gate, that they didn't delay the kick off when they should and that they made up lies to pin the blame on the supporters.
    No I want to give SOME of the supporters a SHARE of the blame.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yet you, with no evidence whatsover think the supporters are to blame. Despite there being no evidence of the supporters in any way contributing and despite the inquest finding the police entirely responsible.
    See above.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Apparently you know more than the 296 day inquest. You know more than the thousands of documents, you know what no-one else does based on the fact you go to football matches today.
    Still hung up with the length of the inquest haha

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Let me repeat, no evidence was found of mass peoples without tickets. There were no more people than could have been seated. There was plenty of room for everyone in the side pens yet the police directed everyone towards the main pen.
    There were considerably more than could have been seated. It's common knowledge that when seats were mandated in all areas of football stadiums capacities went down.


    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You are arguing the supporters are to blame for coming without tickets but you have zero evidence of even a single person arriving without a ticket. Your 'logic' does not trump the huge bodies of documents and evidence which when weighed up simply showed no evidence of huge numbers of fans without tickets. None.
    Again, see above.




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    It's funny how you're suddenly so concerned with evidence. The last debate we had was on the prevalence of rape where you argued how common it is despite a glaring lack of evidence


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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    But there is evidence of trespassing. By climbing over the turnstile booth you are trespassing. By going in through gate c when it was opened to let someone out you are trespassing.
    The climbing over the turnstyled of a few people did not lead to the crush, it was the opening of the gate, letting thousands through and not closing off the middle pen.


    Well is that not true? If those two thousand people had not been let in would the crush have occurred?
    No, of course not. The crush was caused by thousands of fans being sent into the middle pen.

    Well seeing as you're asking for evidence of the impossible I'll do the same: prove that announcing it over a tannoy (which may or may not even exist) would have helped.
    Absurd logic. I can't prove something that hasn't happened. All I can say is that there is certainly at least a chance it could have helped. It might not of but it might have and should have been done. Giving someone cancer treatment doesn't guarantee it'll cure them but it might and you do the best you can.

    Climbing over the turnstile booth is trespass. Going in through the gate when it was opened to let someone out is trespass. Going to a place you weren't allocated is trespass.
    The gate wasn't opened to let people out, it was opened to let people in. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the facts.

    You're denying that people illegally entering the premises contributed to the disaster...
    Again, no evidence whatsoever that lots people did illegally enter. The cause of the disaster was the big rush of people who were instructed by the police to go through the gates. The piles of evidence and now the police show that ticketless fans did not cotnribute to the disaster and there is no evidence of lots of ticketless fans. None.

    My point was the police likely didn't realise that people were literally dying. If I prevented an ambulance from reaching someone for no good reason, thinking they were only in pain not dying I would be responsible. If a policeman prevents an ambulance from getting to someone that's a different issue. Seeing as the families are the victims are now looking to cash in on the death of their family we'll find out from the wrongful death suit why the police prevented the ambulances
    Doesn't matter it was obvious people were suffering and they prevented them receiving medical help. You don't have a duty to provide medical help but you do have a duty not to stop someone receiving it.


    Is reasonable in respect to the the time they had to be in the stadium. However it's not reasonable in a practical sense. It's also not reasonable nor common for half of the fans in a particular area to all decide to only try and get in 20 minutes prior to kick off. You're saying there weren't lots of people without tickets but you have no more proof than I do. The fact is nobody knows how many people didn't have tickets.
    They didn't only try to get in then. They had been quieing for a while. It is not their fault that there were only 7 turnstyles for 10,000 people. The police did not inspect the ground before then. Had they done they would have realized how few turnstyles there were and planned accordingly.

    Yes I do have more proof than you do. Because no evidence was found. If someone is found not guilty of rape, that techncially doesn't prove they haven't done it, but we regard them as having not done it. Innocent until proven guilty. Apply the same standards here. There is no evidence that there was mass ticketlessness. There is no evidence that there were significantly more fans than tickets. Innocent until proven guilty. They examined it in detal and found there wasn't sufficient evidence to say there was.

    No I want to give SOME of the supporters a SHARE of the blame.
    Your initial post said that it was down to ticketless idiots.
    There is no evidence the fans contributed. It was entirely the decision of the police to open the gate and not close the middle pen.




    There were considerably more than could have been seated. It's common knowledge that when seats were mandated in all areas of football stadiums capacities went down.
    What? There were no seats, it was a standing section, that's the whole point.


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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    150 people did not cause the crush. The pen should have been closed. Thousands of people rushing in after that police had orered the gate to be open did.

    You claimed it was caused by ticketless fans yet there is zero evidence that there were ticketless fans. None. The most comprehensive and lengthy inquest in British history and you seem to think they missed out on some evidence that only you have Because you go to football matches now apparently.

    The reason anyone jumped over a turnstile was not becaus they were ticketless but because there were 7 turnstiles for 10000 people which meant thousands would miss the start of the game.
    It was far too few turnstiles. I don't care if you've been to a football game before.
    What the police should have done as was common practice is ordered the kick off to be delayed. Instead they ordered the gate to be opened and did not close the main pen.

    It was the opening of the gate and not closing the middle pen which led to the rush and the deaths.
    The police then lied and covered it up. Which you have glossed over.

    The polices negligent actions caused the deaths. Firstly in not checking out the ground before and realising 7 turnstiles for 10000 people was not enough. Secondly for not delaying the kick off to prevent people rushing. Thirdly for opening the gate then claiming they didn't. Fourthly for not closing off the middle pen despite the fact the police could see it was full and instead when they should have directed people to the side pens where there was plenty of space. Fifthly for stopping ambulances entering the pitch when people were still alive.


    There is no evidence of mass ticketlessness. None. yet you seem to think there was. You seem to know what no one else does.

    You really will argue that black is white.
    To blame it on ticketless fans when's there is zero evidence of them having been there is pretty astonishing. Despite the fact the police have now admitted responsibility you seem to know better.
    With respect, you are addressing an irrelevance here.

    An inexperienced police commander panicked. Why he panicked had nothing to do with information that was only established by the Taylor Inquiry.

    The question Taylor omitted to answer was why were the fans abnormally late? Liverpool fans were familiar with big all ticket games. They were familiar with the stadium. There were no hold-ups on the road. No trains were late. Taylor referred to what was printed on the tickets but that doesn't explain the behaviour at that match compared with other matches. He dismissed the suggestion that there were significant numbers of ticketless fans. He dismissed alcohol as a cause (but his reasoning isn't good here, because he concentrates on the victims, not those at the back of the crush). Yet he did not say why they were in fact so late.

    However Taylor does say, that at other matches there were significant numbers of ticketless fans determined to force admittance or riot to gain admittance and furthermore that this tactic worked.

    The responsibility of football supporters in general and Liverpool supporters in particular (the police commander undoubtedly knew that his opposite number in Brussels had stood trial for the manslaughter of 39 people) for what happened at Hillsborough started long before Liverpool won their FA Cup quarter final.
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    (Original post by swagyolo420)
    Don't really understand how it was unlawful? Did the police force all these people to turn up? And did they force them into an overcrowded stadium? The whole thing was tragic but it was an accident. The police and stadium authorities didn't kill those people on purpose


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    thats why they're being tried for unlawful killing which is in a sense manslaughter rather than murder. my dad was there and i can assure you that the police did contribute, they did not stop people coming in and kept letting more and more people in even when the fans were screaming and collapsing. when fans tried to escape on to the pitch they were pushed back. there is no blame to be put on the fans, the police are accountable, its not that they killed them as such, but as they didn't take out measures that could have easily prevented death, its virtually the same thing.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    With respect, you are addressing an irrelevance here.

    An inexperienced police commander panicked. Why he panicked had nothing to do with information that was only established by the Taylor Inquiry.

    The question Taylor omitted to answer was why were the fans abnormally late? Liverpool fans were familiar with big all ticket games. They were familiar with the stadium. There were no hold-ups on the road. No trains were late. Taylor referred to what was printed on the tickets but that doesn't explain the behaviour at that match compared with other matches. He dismissed the suggestion that there were significant numbers of ticketless fans. He dismissed alcohol as a cause (but his reasoning isn't good here, because he concentrates on the victims, not those at the back of the crush). Yet he did not say why they were in fact so late.

    However Taylor does say, that at other matches there were significant numbers of ticketless fans determined to force admittance or riot to gain admittance and furthermore that this tactic worked.

    The responsibility of football supporters in general and Liverpool supporters in particular (the police commander undoubtedly knew that his opposite number in Brussels had stood trial for the manslaughter of 39 people) for what happened at Hillsborough started long before Liverpool won their FA Cup quarter final.
    It wasn't just a panic, the whole thing was grossly negligent.
    Not carrying out a safety check prior to game, not delaying the kick off, ordering the gate to be opened, not closing off the middle pen and not allowing ambulances to reach dying people.

    The whole thing was grossly negligent by the police and their negligence led to the deaths.
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    (Original post by Good bloke)
    The thing is, he didn't say that without any evidence. His conclusions followed an exhaustive inquiry that considered a great deal of evidence about the matter. You, by contrast, have stated you have no evidence at all to back up your position. Can you understand the difference, and why it makes you look foolish and ill-informed?
    Well you could give me some more details on this evidence he was privy to?

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The climbing over the turnstyled of a few people did not lead to the crush, it was the opening of the gate, letting thousands through and not closing off the middle pen.
    You seem to have trouble grading the concept that most things are caused by multiple factors. Trespassing was a contributing factor.


    (Original post by Bornblue)
    No, of course not. The crush was caused by thousands of fans being sent into the middle pen.
    Being sent? Please provide evidence fans were explicitly told by police to go into the middle pen and not simply not prevented from going in.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Absurd logic. I can't prove something that hasn't happened. All I can say is that there is certainly at least a chance it could have helped. It might not of but it might have and should have been done. Giving someone cancer treatment doesn't guarantee it'll cure them but it might and you do the best you can.
    Well by that logic I could say if people had tried to flap their arms in effort to fly out of the stadium it might have helped. Realistically using a 1980's tannoy, that might not have even existed, is unlikely to have done much.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    The gate wasn't opened to let people out, it was opened to let people in. I suggest you familiarise yourself with the facts.
    Haha you're such an expert yet you got that wrong. Taken from the official website of the enquiry:

    "While this request was being considered, Gate C - in the bottom left corner of the picture - was opened to eject a young supporter. Approximately 150 fans entered through the opened gate before it was closed by police. "

    So I would say it's you who should familiarise yourself with facts.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Again, no evidence whatsoever that lots people did illegally enter. The cause of the disaster was the big rush of people who were instructed by the police to go through the gates. The piles of evidence and now the police show that ticketless fans did not cotnribute to the disaster and there is no evidence of lots of ticketless fans. None.
    Again, there's no evidence there weren't large numbers of ticketless fans, just no evidence there was.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Doesn't matter it was obvious people were suffering and they prevented them receiving medical help. You don't have a duty to provide medical help but you do have a duty not to stop someone receiving it.
    Like I said, we'll see what comes out in the wrongful death suit these greedy people are filing.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    They didn't only try to get in then. They had been quieing for a while. It is not their fault that there were only 7 turnstyles for 10,000 people. The police did not inspect the ground before then. Had they done they would have realized how few turnstyles there were and planned accordingly.
    Any evidence of how long they'd been queueing?

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Yes I do have more proof than you do. Because no evidence was found. If someone is found not guilty of rape, that techncially doesn't prove they haven't done it, but we regard them as having not done it. Innocent until proven guilty. Apply the same standards here. There is no evidence that there was mass ticketlessness. There is no evidence that there were significantly more fans than tickets. Innocent until proven guilty. They examined it in detal and found there wasn't sufficient evidence to say there was.
    Yet you're happy to support the figures that say tens of thousands of people are raped each year despite there being no evidence to suggest that's true other than someone's word.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Your initial post said that it was down to ticketless idiots.
    There is no evidence the fans contributed. It was entirely the decision of the police to open the gate and not close the middle pen.
    You're again missing the contributing factors point. There is evidence of behaviour that is consistent with people who don't have tickets such as jumping turnstiles and going into a gate when not explicitly told to do so.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    What? There were no seats, it was a standing section, that's the whole point.
    I'm aware of that but in your last post you said 'there were no more people than could have been seated'.



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    (Original post by Nickko99)
    Being 'sensitive'......lol, liberal
    Screen capped your account, picture and comment. I can take a wild guess who employs you. You're massively unprofessional.

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    (Original post by Underscore__)


    You seem to have trouble grading the concept that most things are caused by multiple factors. Trespassing was a contributing factor.
    Except there is no evidence of lots of people without tickets. All the documents were viewed, all evidence collated and nothing suggests there were lots without tickets. There were not more people outside than could have been stood comfortably inside. There were not too many Liverpool fans.
    You're committing a logical fallacy. You're alleging an offense on behalf of someone else and asking me to disprove it. That's not how it works. If you allege misfeasance you have to prove it. You don't just make an unevidenced claim and go 'prove me wrong'.

    My argument is backed up by the fact a court of law after an extensive inquest found no evidence despite examining all the information. Innocent until proven guilty.

    Being sent? Please provide evidence fans were explicitly told by police to go into the middle pen and not simply not prevented from going in.
    The police ordered the gate to be opened and told fans to head down the tunnel. What should have happened is the pen should have been closed and fans directed into the side pens. The fans had no way of knowing the pen was full, the police did from their tower overlooking the stand.

    Well by that logic I could say if people had tried to flap their arms in effort to fly out of the stadium it might have helped. Realistically using a 1980's tannoy, that might not have even existed, is unlikely to have done much.
    Well no. Because it's far more likely if people knew that the kickoff would have been delayed an hour or so, that people would have been a lot more chilled and not in such a rush. Also if the kick off had been delayed the police would likely not have opened the gate which led to the crush. Yes there's no guarantee it would have worked but it should have been done to at least have the chance of working.
    It's impossible to fly so stupid example.


    "While this request was being considered, Gate C - in the bottom left corner of the picture - was opened to eject a young supporter. Approximately 150 fans entered through the opened gate before it was closed by police. "

    So I would say it's you who should familiarise yourself with facts.
    Except you are talking about an unrelated incident. The crush was caused by the 2000 fans who came in in one go after the gate was opened to let them in. The police lied and said the fans forced the gate open and have since admitted they lied and that they opened the gate.

    Again, there's no evidence there weren't large numbers of ticketless fans, just no evidence there was.
    Appalling logic. You're the one making an accusation saying that the fans misbehaved, you have to prove it. The inquest found no evidence and we go with innocent until proven guilty.

    If a man is found not guilty of rape, we presume him innocent and it's the same here. The fans were in effect on trial to see if they in any way contributed and they were found innocent. Please be consistent.
    The trial showed there was no evidence of ticketless fans and while there is no evidence we presume innocence.

    Like I said, we'll see what comes out in the wrongful death suit these greedy people are filing.
    Greedy? Wow. These people had their children unlawfully killed by the gross negligent actions of the police. They were then accused of being at fault themselves in a massive cover up by the police, who perverted the course of justice. They've lived with the grief of losing their loved ones for 27 years and you call them greedy for wanting the people responsible to be held to account?

    Any evidence of how long they'd been queueing?
    People arriving half an hour before kick off is nothing unusual.

    Yet you're happy to support the figures that say tens of thousands of people are raped each year despite there being no evidence to suggest that's true other than someone's word.
    We're not taking about rape here. But there's no one even claiming that there was huge numbers of ticketless fans and no credible evidence to suggest there was.

    You're wildly inconsistent. You say anyone accused of one crime should be innocent until proven guilty, but when you speak of Liverpool fans you don't hold that standard. Let's have innocent until proven guilty for both.

    The trial investigated if there was mass ticketlessness, they said there was no evidence to suggest there was. Not guilty.

    Just like if someone is found not guilty of rape, they are presumed innocent. It is always on the onus of someone alleging an offence to prove it, as you are, rather than on the alleged offender to prove they didn't.

    You're again missing the contributing factors point. There is evidence of behaviour that is consistent with people who don't have tickets such as jumping turnstiles and going into a gate when not explicitly told to do so.



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    There's no evidence of tresspass.
    Nor does that prove they did not have tickets.
    The trial discussed it and said no evidence. That's the official finding after going over all the evidence.

    Your first post said it was only caused by ticketless idiots. You said it wouldn't have happened but for ticketless idiots. You didn't say 'contributing factor'.

    There was no contributing factor from the fans. It was the police who didn't carry out adequate safety checks. It was the police who ordered the gate to be opened. It was the police who didn't close the middle pen despite the fact they could see or should have seen it was already full. It was the police who prevented the ambulances reaching injured people. It was the police who lied and covered it up, destroying evidence and fabricating stories to blame the fans.

    The only thing the fans did was go to a football game with their loved ones.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Well you could give me some more details on this evidence he was privy to?
    You do your own digging, starting with reading the report and following up on the references and appendices.
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    There were 2 differences between the policing at the 1989 match and the one in 1988.

    In 88 people had their tickets checked at a cordon well away from the turnstiles. That meant there was no requirement for turnstiles with a throughput of 600/hour to get 10,000 people through in 90 minutes or so. So the exit gates could be opened to let people in with no problems of crushing around the turnstiles. If this had taken place then the police wouldn't have been pressured into making decisions in a panic.

    In 88 when the queues for the turnstiles built up the exit gates were opened and the gates to the tunnel was closed. If this had been done no one would have died.

    The policing in 89 was negligent. Success in the previous year from a different team of staff led to negligent levels of complacency in preparation and decisions on the day.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    There were 2 differences between the policing at the 1989 match and the one in 1988.

    In 88 people had their tickets checked at a cordon well away from the turnstiles. That meant there was no requirement for turnstiles with a throughput of 600/hour to get 10,000 people through in 90 minutes or so. So the exit gates could be opened to let people in with no problems of crushing around the turnstiles. If this had taken place then the police wouldn't have been pressured into making decisions in a panic.

    In 88 when the queues for the turnstiles built up the exit gates were opened and the gates to the tunnel was closed. If this had been done no one would have died.

    The policing in 89 was negligent. Success in the previous year from a different team of staff led to negligent levels of complacency in preparation and decisions on the day.
    Why were more people allowed in than the stadium's seats catered for in the first place? That's not the police's responsibility


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    Unless people without tickets were coming in


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    (Original post by swagyolo420)
    Why were more people allowed in than the stadium's seats catered for in the first place? That's not the police's responsibility


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    Have you read any of the reports?

    The ticketed capacity for those stands wasn't exceeded - but instead of being spread across the west and north west terraces they were directed almost entirely into 2 small pens.
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    (Original post by PQ)
    Have you read any of the reports?

    The ticketed capacity for those stands wasn't exceeded - but instead of being spread across the west and north west terraces they were directed almost entirely into 2 small pens.
    Nope, just interested.

    So what was the normal procedure at hillsborough? Were people normally spread across the west and north west? Why wasn't the same procedure followed here? Did the police ever give a reason for following a different procedure?


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