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Being Gay is a choice watch

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    • #3
    #3

    So basically being homosexual is a choice.
    This agrees with both sides of the argument because:

    Being gay is a choice: Choosing to like a someone of the same gender because you like them.
    Being gay is not a choice/; Choosing to take that big step towards someone you love even though people in society may not accept that.

    ...I dont get why we are fighting this!

    Hopefullly this is the last post.
    Thank you @tgs Lila for a very interesting question.
    kk everyone go do something.
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    (Original post by ComputerMaths97)
    I think these are fair points, and I've always agreed that "choice" is the wrong word, since it implies a point in time. Decision does also imply that those, and decision pretty much equals choice. If you make a decision, you've made a choice, and to make a choice you must make a decision. I do think it's not entirely genetic though, otherwise there would be less issues like the one you stated, and the fact that people may be "confused" about their sexuality before a certain point.
    Okay let me further explain my point.

    You have **** yourself on the street by accident. You didn't choose to **** your pants did you. You body made that choice. Does that still mean you made the choice to **** yourself if your body did it for you?

    Here is where the arguing comes in. I don't think you made the choice to **** yourself on a conscious level. But on an unconscious level (where your body does all the thinking without you realising) it made the choice to make you **** yourself, for its own reasons you are unaware of.

    So, here is where my opinion came in.

    I think that your body makes the choice to be gay on an unconscious level. However on a conscious level you do not make the choice.

    So my overall opinion is, yes, there is a choice to be made, but not by you (conscious you).
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    i agree that it is a choice.
    Reason is being..why are people also bisexual?
    i thought it was one or the other, how could it be both?
    I appreciate beauty regardless of whether the person is male or female, and I don't find just find beauty in one thing.

    (Original post by ComputerMaths97)
    To say the drinks you like are genetically determined implies that either 1) You'd know your favourite drink before you tasted them all (which obviously humans can't do, but that's the only other theoretical possibility) or 2) Somehow your body has predetermined/ pre-compared all flavours of drink possible. To have a favourite, you must be able to compare it with another. This requires knowledge of preference/ taste. I'm pretty sure your brain doesn't have little sachets containing tiny amounts of all flavours.
    This could be the dumbest argument I have ever read. The flavours you like genuinely are determined by genetics. This isn't hypothetical. >.<

    http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/inheritance/ptc/
    http://www.monell.org/news/news_rele...gar_sensitivty

    Nurture also plays a role of course (eg I won't touch Bacardi after I threw up from drinking too much of it) but what we like is genetically predetermined. Apply this to sexual preference and the conclusion we can draw is that people are born gay, and you might be able to override them and make them straight but people have tried that and it's a huge violation of human rights and completely unnecessary.
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    (Original post by ComputerMaths97)
    I think these are fair points, and I've always agreed that "choice" is the wrong word, since it implies a point in time. Decision does also imply that those, and decision pretty much equals choice. If you make a decision, you've made a choice, and to make a choice you must make a decision. I do think it's not entirely genetic though, otherwise there would be less issues like the one you stated, and the fact that people may be "confused" about their sexuality before a certain point.

    I think it's extremely fair to assume being gay is technically a genetic disorder, but if you word it like that people get incredibly offended for some reason. Despite the percentages of gay people in populations being similar to percentages of people with dominant allele genetic disorders.
    Well, u 2 dont understand a thing about biology.. Homosexuality is clearly a consequence of genetic factors... As your colour eyes or hair colour are, for example... An obvious evidence are the gay twins... U hardly find a twin that is gay and the other one is not... why? Because the twins DNA is really identical, almost the same... if homosexual was not a consequence of genetic factors it will be almost impossible to find twins both gay... Furthermore, a really recent research article have found the reason why a str8 couple can have gay kids and explained the transmition of the "gay genetic factor" to the descendence... I'll find the link to post it here...
    To conclude, I study biological sciences and this topic is always discussed but until today I have not found a single university professor that did not defend that homosexuality and bi is a result of genetic factors just like your eyes colour...
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    OP, firstly I don't know why you give a ****, secondly I highly doubt people go through the torment of trying to not come out for years if it's just a choice. Finally, God does not exist, never has and never will, religion is a fairytale and a joke, so the idea that homosexuality is a choice has no valid standing considering religion (which directly resulted in that claim) has no valid standing as God has no valid standing, end of discussion

    (Original post by ivybridge)
    No it's not. I would choose to be heterosexual anyday and I think the vast majority of LGBTQIA people would. You are wrong.
    You actually missed a few, it's LGBTQIASRHE
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    (Original post by Drunq)
    Here is my opinion:Being gay is a decision, not a choice

    Here is why I think this is: (please respect my opinion and don't go lashing out at me)

    1. By genetics: We are born to reproduce, point blank. We are, and that's how we are made. Why would all people who decide to be gay have fully functioning reproducing systems within their bodies (excluding disabilities), if they were 'born' gay? (this does favour the choice side, however we need an unbias response)

    2. If gay is a choice, so is being straight. I believe this to be true, even though we are created to reproduce, we don't go through puberty (where we begin to identify our sexuality), until the age of around 11. This could still mean we are aware of what our reproducing system does (through education), but don't understand how to use it until we begin going through puberty.

    So ages between 0-11, I believe it is all environmental factors that make us gay or straight. Most people are straight because they see it as the ethical thing to do, all their life they've believed that is the correct thing to do. Education teaches us that to reproduce a man must be with a woman, which contributes to most of the population being straight. I also believe that friends influence it as well e.g who you hang around with. Now that gay marriage and such has been accepted within the UK, the first 'ethical' reason of why we should be straight begins to fade away and we see more people becoming gay.If it is a conscious or unconscious approach, our bodies will make the decision to be gay or straight, so that doesn't mean it's a choice. You see, the body makes a decision, not a choice. Take note of the different words. Choice and Decision.If you were gay, and went out with a woman and you didn't want to be within that relationship, the choice is to find a man. But the decision your body has made is that you are interested in men. You understand my point?

    Who agrees and who doesn't?
    1. People without disabilities can be infertile, or they can choose not to reproduce. Personally I know I am able to reproduce but I have no mothering instincts and no desire to reproduce.

    2. See the list of scientific articles on page 1.

    3. Choice and decision are synonyms, and in your example the person is still gay regardless. It's just a case of whether they let people know.
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    (Original post by RachaelBee)
    1. People without disabilities can be infertile, or they can choose not to reproduce. Personally I know I am able to reproduce but I have no mothering instincts and no desire to reproduce. 2. See the list of scientific articles on page 1.
    This is my conclusion, agree or disagree.

    A choice is: "an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities."

    I believe if you make an unconscious choice that isn't making a choice.
    "I got my grandfathers green eyes, damn if I 'had' a choice they'll be brown like my mothers"
    So referring to the point above, if you have brown/green eyes this is down to genetics and percentage and your body while within your mother deciding weather or not to have brown/green eyes. Correct? So there is a choice on an unconscious level, which isn't necessarily you making the choice if you were the one with green eyes.

    Now, for being gay, you body makes a choice on an unconscious level. And we just said that when your body makes a choice on an unconscious level it isn't you making the choice.

    Okay now so we understand that this person is gay, and his unconscious self has made the choice to be gay, let's take us back to our conscious self, the self where we think for ourselves and we can make choices.

    Now because your body has made that choice by itself, it means we didn't make the choice.
    So my conclusion was: Your body makes the choice, not yourself, meaning you do not choose to be gay.
    • #6
    #6

    (Original post by Drunq)
    You're retarded. read my last post.
    Firstly, Im not a retard as my opinion is based on scientific knowledge and not just on personal convictions.Secondly, u defend it is a choice made by your body but not by your conscient... Well, the point being discussed here is if someone choses or not to be gay. SO, if there is a choice not made by our conscience, IT IS NOT a choice. We can call a choice when we consciously chose something instead of other thingFinally, if u still have doubts on this, I can give u my professors email and he can explain u everything, with every detail (Im talking seriously, he does answer doubts from everyone..)
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Firstly, Im not a retard as my opinion is based on scientific knowledge and not just on personal convictions.Secondly, u defend it is a choice made by your body but not by your conscient... Well, the point being discussed here is if someone choses or not to be gay. SO, if there is a choice not made by our conscience, IT IS NOT a choice. We can call a choice when we consciously chose something instead of other thingFinally, if u still have doubts on this, I can give u my professors email and he can explain u everything, with every detail (Im talking seriously, he does answer doubts from everyone..)
    Read this: to clarify my point

    (Original post by Drunq)
    This is my conclusion, agree or disagree.

    A choice is: "an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities."

    I believe if you make an unconscious choice that isn't making a choice.
    "I got my grandfathers green eyes, damn if I 'had' a choice they'll be brown like my mothers"
    So referring to the point above, if you have brown/green eyes this is down to genetics and percentage and your body while within your mother deciding weather or not to have brown/green eyes. Correct? So there is a choice on an unconscious level, which isn't necessarily you making the choice if you were the one with green eyes.

    Now, for being gay, you body makes a choice on an unconscious level. And we just said that when your body makes a choice on an unconscious level it isn't you making the choice.

    Okay now so we understand that this person is gay, and his unconscious self has made the choice to be gay, let's take us back to our conscious self, the self where we think for ourselves and we can make choices.

    Now because your body has made that choice by itself, it means we didn't make the choice.
    So my conclusion was: Your body makes the choice, not yourself, meaning you do not choose to be gay.
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    (Original post by Drunq)
    This is my conclusion, agree or disagree.

    A choice is: "an act of selecting or making a decision when faced with two or more possibilities."

    I believe if you make an unconscious choice that isn't making a choice.
    "I got my grandfathers green eyes, damn if I 'had' a choice they'll be brown like my mothers"
    So referring to the point above, if you have brown/green eyes this is down to genetics and percentage and your body while within your mother deciding weather or not to have brown/green eyes. Correct? So there is a choice on an unconscious level, which isn't necessarily you making the choice if you were the one with green eyes.

    Now, for being gay, you body makes a choice on an unconscious level. And we just said that when your body makes a choice on an unconscious level it isn't you making the choice.

    Okay now so we understand that this person is gay, and his unconscious self has made the choice to be gay, let's take us back to our conscious self, the self where we think for ourselves and we can make choices.

    Now because your body has made that choice by itself, it means we didn't make the choice.
    So my conclusion was: Your body makes the choice, not yourself, meaning you do not choose to be gay.
    I still disagree on the basis that eye colour/homosexuality genetics aren't an unconscious choice made by your body (although I do agree you don't choose to be gay), genetics aren't any sort of choice and they're random beyond the parents choice of sexual partner.
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    (Original post by TGS_Lila)
    I don't think people are naturally born homosexual, i think its a choice, you can agree or disagree.
    its totally a choice god made mad for woman!
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    (Original post by RachaelBee)
    I still disagree on the basis that eye colour/homosexuality genetics aren't an unconscious choice made by your body (although I do agree you don't choose to be gay), genetics aren't any sort of choice and they're random beyond the parents choice of sexual partner.
    okay, just forget about that first example about genetics because i literally have no clue about genetics.

    Use this example plus the rest of the post i wrote:
    If you have a spasm within your body, that is something your body automatically does to try and fix the problem that has occurred. That's known as unconsciously thinking, and the body making the choice by itself to go within that spasm to sort the problem out. However because your body made the choice of going into a spasm, you as a person (conscious), the thinking part of your body didn't make that choice.

    Now, for being gay, your body makes a choice on an unconscious level. And we just said that when your body makes a choice on an unconscious level it isn't you making the choice.

    Okay now so we understand that this person is gay, and his unconscious self has made the choice to be gay, let's take us back to our conscious self, the self where we think for ourselves and we can make choices.

    Now because your body has made that choice by itself, it means we didn't make the choice.
    So my conclusion was: Your body makes the choice, not yourself, meaning you do not choose to be gay.
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    (Original post by Drunq)
    okay, just forget about that first example about genetics because i literally have no clue about genetics.
    Okay I think this is where the problem is and why we're coming to the same conclusion via completely different routes. I believe the strong evidence that being gay is determined by genetics, so it's not a choice and to then compare it even to an involuntary choice would be incorrect (I'm a science student who is a bit of a genetics fan). I understand now where you're coming from with the autonomic NS example (I think that's what you mean anyway, technically spasms are the result of a problem rather than an involuntary action to fix something) but I don't believe that's what is actually happening, although I know what you mean when you say an "unconscious choice".
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    (Original post by RachaelBee)
    Okay I think this is where the problem is and why we're coming to the same conclusion via completely different routes. I believe the strong evidence that being gay is determined by genetics, so it's not a choice and to then compare it even to an involuntary choice would be incorrect (I'm a science student who is a bit of a genetics fan). I understand now where you're coming from with the autonomic NS example (I think that's what you mean anyway, technically spasms are the result of a problem rather than an involuntary action to fix something) but I don't believe that's what is actually happening, although I know what you mean when you say an "unconscious choice".
    agreed, we have come to the same conclusion however for different reasons. Now we have come to the conclusion that being gay is not by choice. The reason explanation is to determine why. i think it is because it is done by unconscious, where on the other hand you think it's done by genetics.

    This is why I don't think it is by genetics, it's because if it's true, that means you may have got that piece of 'gay' genetic from someone down your family tree. I'm not sure if there's evidence that is 100% concrete to go within your favour, but I think it is quite unlikely that this genetic has been passed down for many generation. Or in this case, you may as well be right, but it must be a very hard piece of genetic to acquire.
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    TIL people like ComputerMaths97 still live in the 1800s. The level of absolute ignorance and stubborness is quite frankly worrying. Please try for a single solitary second to think outside of your tiny box.
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    (Original post by Drunq)
    agreed, we have come to the same conclusion however for different reasons. Now we have come to the conclusion that being gay is not by choice. The reason explanation is to determine why. i think it is because it is done by unconscious, where on the other hand you think it's done by genetics.

    This is why I don't think it is by genetics, it's because if it's true, that means you may have got that piece of 'gay' genetic from someone down your family tree. I'm not sure if there's evidence that is 100% concrete to go within your favour, but I think it is quite unlikely that this genetic has been passed down for many generation. Or in this case, you may as well be right, but it must be a very hard piece of genetic to acquire.
    This took me a bit of time to get my head around (it's 4am after all!) but it goes some way to explaining how homosexuality in men may continue to exist rather than be selected against, although as far as I'm aware there are still a lot of questions to be answered conclusively.

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....508-008-9381-6
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    (Original post by RachaelBee)
    This took me a bit of time to get my head around (it's 4am after all!) but it goes some way to explaining how homosexuality in men may continue to exist rather than be selected against, although as far as I'm aware there are still a lot of questions to be answered conclusively.

    http://link.springer.com/article/10....508-008-9381-6
    I had a read through this article, and i'm not convinced that this backs anything up. Since 2005 (when this article was written), there's been no further evidence to support this theory? Of course, to the results, this test was done on 250 male participants, no where near to validate the amount of gay people we have in the planet. Furthermore, women can be gay too? Why weren't there any tests done on any women?

    It's been 11 years since this article and since then their has been no concrete evidence for this theory (not yet at least), so we cannot rule out the possibility.

    However to my point, your autonomic nervous system, makes the choice for you is a very strong possibility because it does it in everyday life without you even noticing, e.g your digestive system. You cannot mentally stop your digestive system from working. Like you cant consciously make the choice to turn straight.

    Thanks for having this conversation at 4am ;P
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    (Original post by Drunq)
    I had a read through this article, and i'm not convinced that this backs anything up. Since 2005 (when this article was written), there's been no further evidence to support this theory? Of course, to the results, this test was done on 250 male participants, no where near to validate the amount of gay people we have in the planet. Furthermore, women can be gay too? Why weren't there any tests done on any women?

    It's been 11 years since this article and since then their has been no concrete evidence for this theory (not yet at least), so we cannot rule out the possibility.

    However to my point, your autonomic nervous system, makes the choice for you is a very strong possibility because it does it in everyday life without you even noticing, e.g your digestive system. You cannot mentally stop your digestive system from working. Like you cant consciously make the choice to turn straight.

    Thanks for having this conversation at 4am ;P
    Yeah it does say that more research is needed, and there's lots to back up the genetic thing as a whole but this was just a family-tree specific one offering a possible explanation as to how it would continue to be acquired. Cheers for a sensible discussion, it can be hard to come by those!
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    (Original post by RachaelBee)
    Yeah it does say that more research is needed, and there's lots to back up the genetic thing as a whole but this was just a family-tree specific one offering a possible explanation as to how it would continue to be acquired. Cheers for a sensible discussion, it can be hard to come by those!
    It's good to keep an open mind. However everything is possible to know exactly why. One thing is for certain though (being gay isn't a choice, for those who think it is). Anyway, good night.
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    (Original post by ComputerMaths97)
    Your argument is that sexual preference cannot be compared to drink preference, and your supporting evidence for the claim doesn't exist beyond "because I said so".

    It's very fair to compare two different preferences, same as its very fair to compare two different drinks, or two different genders.
    Yes? Actually? Because when it comes to this issue, anecdotes are acceptable. Ypu will NEVER find an answer to this question if you maintain it is a choice.

    And no, it's really not but that's your opinion and you're stubborn so just keep it.

    (Original post by Drunq)
    Here is my opinion:
    Being gay is a decision, not a choice

    Here is why I think this is: (please respect my opinion and don't go lashing out at me)

    1. By genetics: We are born to reproduce, point blank. We are, and that's how we are made. Why would all people who decide to be gay have fully functioning reproducing systems within their bodies (excluding disabilities), if they were 'born' gay? (this does favour the choice side, however we need an unbias response)

    2. If gay is a choice, so is being straight. I believe this to be true, even though we are created to reproduce, we don't go through puberty (where we begin to identify our sexuality), until the age of around 11. This could still mean we are aware of what our reproducing system does (through education), but don't understand how to use it until we begin going through puberty.

    So ages between 0-11, I believe it is all environmental factors that make us gay or straight. Most people are straight because they see it as the ethical thing to do, all their life they've believed that is the correct thing to do. Education teaches us that to reproduce a man must be with a woman, which contributes to most of the population being straight. I also believe that friends influence it as well e.g who you hang around with. Now that gay marriage and such has been accepted within the UK, the first 'ethical' reason of why we should be straight begins to fade away and we see more people becoming gay.

    If it is a conscious or unconscious approach, our bodies will make the decision to be gay or straight, so that doesn't mean it's a choice. You see, the body makes a decision, not a choice. Take note of the different words. Choice and Decision.

    If you were gay, and went out with a woman and you didn't want to be within that relationship, the choice is to find a man. But the decision your body has made is that you are interested in men. You understand my point?

    Who agrees and who doesn't?
    Disagree.
 
 
 
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