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    religion is all man made nonsense you are questioning it as a natural reaction, you only get one life don't waste it
    • #12
    #12

    ngl im on the same boat as you, i have to wear an abaya, im the only one in a predominantly white girls school, i want to ateast just wear a hijab, but my parents just go crazy, even tho my younger sisters dont have to... i feel quite depressed too most of the time, now i just dont bother even trying to look good... im 18 too... gonna die an ugly loner... not dressing for guys... but for myself, so i can feel like i fit in... everone should b allowed to wear what they want, allah is all merciful, modesty iisnt just about covering your head


    well atleast if i have daughters i wont to do the same
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    Salam sis,
    I'm really sorry that you're going through this. I hope in sha Allah things get better for you. If I were you, as others said, research more about why it is worn, or take it off. I hate it when people force religion on their kids without actually teaching them. As another person said "There is no compulsion in religion" so I don't think it should be forced at all. You can't embrace something to impress your parents or family etc, you should do it for yourself, e.g. praying 5 times a day.
    You can still be a muslim without your hijab. I have a very good friend who is very religious yet doesn't wear the hijab. She also tries to dress modestly and be modest even without a scarf on her head. There are hijabis with vulgar characters and do who knows what even though they might wear it properly. Everyone is different. You can sit your parents down and talk to them (try, some people have wrong impressions of how they will react to things). If they do anything abusive verbal or physical, then I hate to say it but, maybe even call social services if its that extreme. Make dua to Allah that it goes well.
    • #12
    #12

    also i dont hate islam i love islam, but this is all culture and traditions and the biggest concerns of my parents before gods judgemts are what people think and what people are going to say...
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    But we can change our future right?
    I thought it was sort of like, God sets us events, and watches how we react towards it.
    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Imagine you have a best friend. You love him and he loves you (not in love; best friend type of love). You know everything about him, right? You know what shows he watches, you know what foods he likes to eat when you go resteraunts but not only that ... He has three/four favourite sweets. He loves them. He has them everyday and over time, you obviously notice this. And of course, as best best best friends you know their employment and how much money they might carry with them on an average night out.

    One day, you and your friend enter a new sweet shop with every sweet in the world and you immediately know that your friend has ONLY enough money to buy those three/four sweets. I mean, he COULD buy ANY of the hundreds of sweets available but you just KNOW that he's gonna get those BEFORE he has even bought them.

    Just like that, when God created mankind he knew exactly what actions the individual will do across his whole life and whether or not he is a good or bad muslim. He knows exactly what actions he will make before he does them.

    So this life is a test with the results pre-determind before we are born. This pre-determination is based purely on the actions we make and they are known by God before we make the actions.

    This is the philosophy that muslims believe in, in conjuction with the idea that God is All-Knowing. In fact, the whole idea of it depends on the idea that God is All-Knowing and so therefore if you disagree with that, then fair-dos.

    Ooohhhh! And I almost forgot. If you're thinking "If God KNOWS what we're gonna do. Why doesn't God just send us straight to heaven/hell BEFORE we live our lives?"

    It's because no crime can be punished without it actually happening. You can't punish someone for something they didn't do.
    • #13
    #13

    Sorry didn't read all your post. We were having this conversation the other day. All that matters is your modesty and fear from Allah.

    Imagine two situtaions;
    1. One who prays five times a day (or how much), seek help from Allah, never harms others, is kind BUT doesn't take hijab.
    2. Like your family (sorry but I had to), who don't care how their actions impact others (in this case you) BUT are "religious" and "take hijab".

    You can have hijab and be watching and doing nasty stuff or can't have it but stay modest in your thoughts and actions! Who is the best?!? Who is close to Allah?!? I'll leave it on you to decide.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    1) still, then: god isn't testing anybody
    2) if a reality is pre-determined, which would be necessary if god knows the end result of every situation by virtue of this fact, then we dont have free will. the universe is simply playing out exactly as it is destined to. destiny =/= free will - it's the opposite. if I'm destined to do something and I'm destined to choose a certain path, then that's not me deciding it on a choice basis. if I was always going to do it then I had no choice in the matter.
    I don't think you understand. God is testing us - everything we do is based on our choices. Just because God knows what your choice is doesn't mean you didn't make the choice and that God made you do it. Hence, your 'destiny' is just based on your actions. Here's a good analogy I read:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise, nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen--the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice, and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.


    I understand that it might be difficult for you to get your head around because I guess for many athiests you just want definite answers with physical evidence but thats not what religion is.

    One of the main points in a religion is to have faith, and just because you don't particularly understand how something works doesn't mean God doesn't exist.
    You have to remember, that I believe in a GOD. A god who created the whole universe. Therefore, our knowledge and understanding doesn't come close to his abilities, our knowledge is ultimately limited within 3 dimensions, but God is beyond that.

    I don't want to spend my life asking constantly for physical evidence and getting angry if I don't understand anything in life because afterall, we are only human.
    I believe that religion is a path to guide us and live a good life, to help and care for one another, by having trust in God.
    You may not believe in God, but it isn't a reason to try and keep putting people's beliefs down and try and counter everything, when you yourself don't understand religion. People make choices and religion is one of them. If you don't believe in God that much, then it is your choice, so let others do what they want. It shouldn't affect you.
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    (Original post by Charlotte2001)
    I've noticed you said your 21 in another thread then 18 in another. I'm reporting you for making false threads.
    (Original post by Charlotte2001)
    You're definitely the same person. Bad idea.
    'Anonymous' isn't a specific person. :facepalm:
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    (Original post by chemting)
    How is it "test"? If god knows the result...

    If god knows what will happen then we can't do something else that god didn't know about.

    Its not a test. Its god putting us in this world already knowing what would happen and its just a game: unless god doesn't know what will happen in advance...

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    read my reply to the other person.
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    (Original post by .JC.)
    If you want to take it off, then do it.

    Religion or no religion, you have free will.
    this goes way deeper than "free will"...you don't understand the immense pressure she's facing. Of course she knows she has free will and of course she wants to take it off but it's more complicated
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    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    I don't think you understand. God is testing us - everything we do is based on our choices. Just because God knows what your choice is doesn't mean you didn't make the choice and that God made you do it. Hence, your 'destiny' is just based on your actions. Here's a good analogy I read:
    Spoiler:
    Show
    By analogy, knowing what will happen does not mean that we are preventing or causing that thing to happen. The sun will rise tomorrow. I am not causing it to rise, nor am I preventing it from rising by knowing that it will happen. Likewise, if I put a bowl of ice-cream and a bowl of cauliflower in front of my child, I know for a fact which one is chosen--the ice cream. My knowing it ahead of time does not restrict my child from making a free choice when the time comes. My child is free to make a choice, and knowing the choice has no effect upon her when she makes it.


    I understand that it might be difficult for you to get your head around because I guess for many athiests you just want definite answers with physical evidence but thats not what religion is.

    One of the main points in a religion is to have faith, and just because you don't particularly understand how something works doesn't mean God doesn't exist.
    You have to remember, that I believe in a GOD. A god who created the whole universe. Therefore, our knowledge and understanding doesn't come close to his abilities, our knowledge is ultimately limited within 3 dimensions, but God is beyond that.

    I don't want to spend my life asking constantly for physical evidence and getting angry if I don't understand anything in life because afterall, we are only human.
    I believe that religion is a path to guide us and live a good life, to help and care for one another, by having trust in God.
    You may not believe in God, but it isn't a reason to try and keep putting people's beliefs down and try and counter everything, when you yourself don't understand religion. People make choices and religion is one of them. If you don't believe in God that much, then it is your choice, so let others do what they want. It shouldn't affect you.
    clearly this is TL;DR
    if god has knowledge of something, why would he test that subject matter?
    would a scientist need to test something he already knows? he would maybe demonstrate a practical, but he isn't doing it to learn something, and he's thinking nothing other than "look, this is exactly what would happen". what kind of scientist is god, then? one who learns something even when he knows of the 100%-determined an certain outcome? how many times does he need to test an absolutely certain outcome in order to be absolutely certain of it being the outcome?
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    (Original post by Tsrsarahhhh)
    Maybe this is the case for many but again I must disagree. My mother is a convert to Islam and at the beginning she chose not to wear the scarf however after time she chose to wear it and tells me it's not oppressive but liberating. She didn't choose to wear it because she thought it was compulsory she wore it because of the way it made her feel. Again I must emphasise no one forced her my father's family are Muslim but none of the women wear a scarf making it completely her own choice. Like wise many of my friends are Muslim and most of those who didn't wear the scarf previously have started to adopt it due to the way it makes them feel. Again none of these girls were forced. However you do make a valid point many women are forced into hijab and maybe adding this label of liberation helps them come to terms with this. But I do think it is important to not ignore the fact that hijab and the scarf Is an ACTUAL source of liberation for many Muslim women.
    In most cases, wearing the hijab doesn't follow a "wear it or die" kind of threat. It is more likely the result of mild harassement by a relative, eg. "the prophet's wife wore it", "you would be a better Muslim if you had a hijab", "this scholar said that", "you will feel better", etc.

    The fact that your mother and friends told you that they find it "liberating" does not mean that they really feel that way. Everybody saying that should try not to wear it at least one day to see the difference; I bet that they will be scorn by someone for having done that - they will thus see how much they are "free" to wear it.

    Then converts are also often keen to show that they are not faking their conversion.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    clearly this is TL;DR
    if god has knowledge of something, why would he test that subject matter?
    would a scientist need to test something he already knows? he would maybe demonstrate a practical, but he isn't doing it to learn something, and he's thinking nothing other than "look, this is exactly what would happen". what kind of scientist is god, then? one who learns something even when he knows of the 100%-determined an certain outcome? how many times does he need to test an absolutely certain outcome in order to be absolutely certain of it being the outcome?
    Well if he didn't have to "test" then we wouldn't be given a life, we wouldn't be able to be given a chance to live on earth and actually make those choices.
    Maybe it would make sense if you actually read my post. But with your ignorance and lack of understanding, that is clearly too much to ask isn't it? I guess you didn't read my post because you wouldn't be able to respond to my points anyway. Have a good day.
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    OP, it sounds like Islam really isn't the right religion for you. There are many other ways of worshipping your god, most of which are far less regressive. My advice would be to leave Islam once you're in a position where you don't depend on your family. Happiness is the most important thing in life and if something's jeopardising that then just discard it.

    I need to apologise here because this next bit is going to sound like flattery, but keep in mind that I don't say something unless I mean it. I think you're an example that the others in your community should follow. Unlike them you've remained true to yourself and have resisted the indoctrination process. I can't stress enough how rare and important this is. It's people like you who give me fresh hope that humanity has a future of progress instead of blind faith and war.

    A parent should love their child unconditionally and should want nothing more than to see their child happy. If your parents would put Islam first then they are unworthy of even knowing your name and are undeserving of you.

    My advice would be to wait until you leave home, then live your life the way you want to. Take off your hijab, find a partner who loves you for who you are not what you do and free yourself from the confines of organised religion. Seriously, don't worry about not getting married, there's plenty of non - Muslims out there who are your type and who will love you unconditionally, there's probably some Muslim men who will as well, but as you know they're pretty rare. When you marry who you want to marry and not who your parents want you to marry, you'll get a new, better family.

    Take your life into your own hands, focus on where you want to be and don't let anyone or anything stand between you and your goals.
    • #1
    • Thread Starter
    #1

    Guys please refrain from debating whether what we do is predetermined or not... this isn't the thread.

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    ngl im on the same boat as you, i have to wear an abaya, im the only one in a predominantly white girls school, i want to ateast just wear a hijab, but my parents just go crazy, even tho my younger sisters dont have to... i feel quite depressed too most of the time, now i just dont bother even trying to look good... im 18 too... gonna die an ugly loner... not dressing for guys... but for myself, so i can feel like i fit in... everone should b allowed to wear what they want, allah is all merciful, modesty iisnt just about covering your head

    well atleast if i have daughters i wont to do the same
    Yes same boat. I wear the abaya as well. Once I wore jeans, bootlegs and they weren't tight anywhere, and for the rest of that week I was called a hoe/ slut by a family member.

    This is why I'm so scared.
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    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    Well if he didn't have to "test" then we wouldn't be given a life, we wouldn't be able to be given a chance to live on earth and actually make those choices.
    Maybe it would make sense if you actually read my post. But with your ignorance and lack of understanding, that is clearly too much to ask isn't it? I guess you didn't read my post because you wouldn't be able to respond to my points anyway. Have a good day.
    1) you're only proving my point by saying that - if god knew the outcome of creating the universe yet create it anyway and had nobody to demonstrate this knowledge to, why would he have done it?
    2) I'm sorry, but is the precedent that I have to read everything another user writes to me, even if it is clearly a wall of text, or is the precedent that would work better that users should contain their text to the amount that is appropriate for their overall point? because I don't believe *all that* was necessary for whatever you were getting at simply by disagreeing with my post before
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    also i dont hate islam i love islam, but this is all culture and traditions and the biggest concerns of my parents before gods judgemts are what people think and what people are going to say...
    Most people will respect and even congratulate you for leaving it.
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    (Original post by BubbleBoobies)
    1) you're only proving my point by saying that - if god knew the outcome of creating the universe yet create it anyway and had nobody to demonstrate this knowledge to, why would he have done it?
    2) I'm sorry, but is the precedent that I have to read everything another user writes to me, even if it is clearly a wall of text, or is the precedent that would work better that users should contain their text to the amount that is appropriate for their overall point? because I don't believe *all that* was necessary for whatever you were getting at simply by disagreeing with my post before
    I believe it was necessary because you seem to be constantly arguing the existence of God based on the topic of "free will". Your first point also links to the "too long to read" post I made, since all you do is ask questions when you clearly don't understand what religion is about - so why keep talking about it and criticising it? He created the world and gave life for us. God isn't human, he doesn't have the same way of thinking as you about having someone "demonstrate knowledge to" or whatever.
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    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Imagine you have a best friend. You love him and he loves you (not in love; best friend type of love). You know everything about him, right? You know what shows he watches, you know what foods he likes to eat when you go resteraunts but not only that ... He has three/four favourite sweets. He loves them. He has them everyday and over time, you obviously notice this. And of course, as best best best friends you know their employment and how much money they might carry with them on an average night out.

    One day, you and your friend enter a new sweet shop with every sweet in the world and you immediately know that your friend has ONLY enough money to buy those three/four sweets. I mean, he COULD buy ANY of the hundreds of sweets available but you just KNOW that he's gonna get those BEFORE he has even bought them.

    Just like that, when God created mankind he knew exactly what actions the individual will do across his whole life and whether or not he is a good or bad muslim. He knows exactly what actions he will make before he does them.

    So this life is a test with the results pre-determind before we are born. This pre-determination is based purely on the actions we make and they are known by God before we make the actions.

    This is the philosophy that muslims believe in, in conjuction with the idea that God is All-Knowing. In fact, the whole idea of it depends on the idea that God is All-Knowing and so therefore if you disagree with that, then fair-dos.
    awful analogy... I don't know everything about my (best) friend, that person can keep secrets, change his/her mind, do something to surprise me or just something I don't know about. I don't know how that person is going to be in the future (as I don't know the future), heck I don't even whether I'd even be friends with that person in 1,2,5 or 10 years time. That person might just decide to buy 4 different sweets to try something different, or even just for the sake of proving my pre-determined conceptions wrong... you can't obviously do that with an all-knowing, omnipotent allah - its a false comparison.

    (Original post by Butternuts96)
    Ooohhhh! And I almost forgot. If you're thinking "If God KNOWS what we're gonna do. Why doesn't God just send us straight to heaven/hell BEFORE we live our lives?"

    It's because no crime can be punished without it actually happening. You can't punish someone for something they didn't do.
    so let me get this straight, omnipotent allah created an individual knowing full-well that said individual is going to commit sins during its time on earth and also knowing fully that this individual will suffer for all eternity - but still proceeds to create this individual. Sounds like a nice chap
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    (Original post by NeverGrowUp)
    I believe it was necessary because you seem to be constantly arguing the existence of God based on the topic of "free will". Your first point also links to the "too long to read" post I made, since all you do is ask questions when you clearly don't understand what religion is about - so why keep talking about it and criticising it?
    okay then - what is religion about? I never even discussed religion, I discussed "god", which isn't something exclusive to a religion seeing as you can have things like deism, pantheism (etc)

    He created the world and gave life for us. God isn't human, he doesn't have the same way of thinking as you about having someone "demonstrate knowledge to" or whatever.
    that's a cop-out. human beings are rational creatures. we've come far enough to see where the universe came from (the big bang) yet you think that we're too stupid to understand basic logic that rules reality? go himself must be ruled by logic if he exists, or his very nature is nonsense. you can't say 2+2=5 for instance; maths *is* logic. but science is maths applied to reality. you can't contradict something like gravity (ruled by mathematical balances of forces), for instance. you can't have a man walking on water.
 
 
 
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