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    (Original post by BodhiUtah)
    Yep voting leave just to wind up the left wing liberal nutters
    Thats a terrible reason to vote, you do know corbyn and many other left wingers want out?
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    (Original post by LeahTopping)
    Lol preach! No matter what we end up voting, we're going to stay in the EU regardless. Personally I'm voting to stay in because it's the safer option for now but I don't feel educated enough on the matter because everything is so biased!!
    So you think that if the people vote leave we will still stay?
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    I feel like the people who vote leave will be more likely to vote in the referendum than those who wish to remain. No real reason, but sometimes I feel like leave campaign people are a bit more enthusiastic about their choice.

    Myself I can't vote as I don't hold a British passport.
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    (Original post by cuppa)
    I feel like the people who vote leave will be more likely to vote in the referendum than those who wish to remain. No real reason, but sometimes I feel like leave campaign people are a bit more enthusiastic about their choice.

    Myself I can't vote as I don't hold a British passport.
    Completely agree with you. I think the remain camp and those saying Brexit won't ever happen fail to take that into consideration.
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    This is the problem with today's generation, they are the product of indoctrination from left wing education systems and have no bottle in the face of adversity- rather than rebel like normal teenagers did in previous generations, they will bend over the barrel and take it. Toughen up. Have some conviction, faith and belief in your country to make a success of it and go alone. Let's do it our way, not Brussels. The nation is turning into a bunch of pussy boys who need safe spaces to wrap themselves up
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Moving the goalposts. Our poor democracy doesn't excuse the EU's anti-democracy. Once we leave the EU, we can focus on improving our own democracy and moving to a Swiss-style direct democracy.

    Still, don't use this argument. It isn't pertinent to the issue.
    We could indeed. But we won't. Alas there will be enough to do trying to salvage the economy and hoping that Scotland don't declare independence. That said, we will have the fallout from a split Tory party to keep us entertained.
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    (Original post by neal95)
    This is the problem with today's generation, they are the product of indoctrination from left wing education systems and have no bottle in the face of adversity- rather than rebel like normal teenagers did in previous generations, they will bend over the barrel and take it. Toughen up. Have some conviction, faith and belief in your country to make a success of it and go alone. Let's do it our way, not Brussels. The nation is turning into a bunch of pussy boys who need safe spaces to wrap themselves up

    we haven't been told to toughen up, we've been told that everything will be fine and dandy by Vote Leave etc. The problems with our generation is a lack of responsibility which is exacerbated by the ukip crowd of whingers and narcissits whose lives would be so much better without meddling brussels and Polish migration.

    Judging at how sensitive you eurosceptics have been acting the last few weeks what with Obama coming and all I suggest its you lot that need to go and find a safe space, away from things like facts et al.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    We could indeed. But we won't. Alas there will be enough to do trying to salvage the economy and hoping that Scotland don't declare independence. That said, we will have the fallout from a split Tory party to keep us entertained.
    What's the point you're trying to make?

    Do you like democracy? Do you like voting for those who make your laws? Do you like being able to democratically remove those who make your laws?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    What's the point you're trying to make?

    Do you like democracy? Do you like voting for those who make your laws? Do you like being able to democratically remove those who make your laws?
    My point, is that whilst we lambaste the undemocratic aspects of the EU as a reason to leave, we turn a blind eye to our own undemocratic niggles. Like the fact that we don't have a proportional representation of MPs; that the party system involves parties publishing a manifesto of policies which they then totally ignore when elected into government. And the truly sad part is that it turns out our unelected peers are one of the few organisations that have been protecting our democratic rights in recent times.

    So if the EU vote is about democracy, please, let us get our own house in order first. It is true that the commission is unelected, but they can only propose laws and only after consulting with key stakeholders. It is for the EU parliament, elected by us in part, that is responsible for voting them into law.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    we haven't been told to toughen up, we've been told that everything will be fine and dandy by Vote Leave etc. The problems with our generation is a lack of responsibility which is exacerbated by the ukip crowd of whingers and narcissits whose lives would be so much better without meddling brussels and Polish migration.

    Judging at how sensitive you eurosceptics have been acting the last few weeks what with Obama coming and all I suggest its you lot that need to go and find a safe space, away from things like facts et al.
    Facts; because the European nationals who have set up shop here permanently are going to be forced to go home by the evil eurosceptics, or so your lot and the home office would have us believe, despite directly contradicting information from them on May 4th. I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee and admit that you are a government stooge and have been indoctrinated. Have some pride and admit it go on.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    My point, is that whilst we lambaste the undemocratic aspects of the EU as a reason to leave, we turn a blind eye to our own undemocratic niggles. Like the fact that we don't have a proportional representation of MPs; that the party system involves parties publishing a manifesto of policies which they then totally ignore when elected into government. And the truly sad part is that it turns out our unelected peers are one of the few organisations that have been protecting our democratic rights in recent times.

    So if the EU vote is about democracy, please, let us get our own house in order first. It is true that the commission is unelected, but they can only propose laws and only after consulting with key stakeholders. It is for the EU parliament, elected by us in part, that is responsible for voting them into law.
    There is an increasing push for proportional representation and direct democracy in British politics, but if we acheive perfect Swiss-style democracy, it wouldn't matter a bit because we'd still be trapped in the yoke of the EU. For democratic reforms to have any meaning, we first need to escape the undemocratic EU.
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    (Original post by neal95)
    Facts; because the European nationals who have set up shop here permanently are going to be forced to go home by the evil eurosceptics, or so your lot and the home office would have us believe, despite directly contradicting information from them on May 4th.
    ?

    I think you need to wake up and smell the coffee and admit that you are a government stooge and have been indoctrinated. Have some pride and admit it go on.
    I wish I was a government stooge getting paid to say what I believe.

    We've all been indoctrinated. But I unlike you have at least tried to see things from the other perspective.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    We've all been indoctrinated. But I unlike you have at least tried to see things from the other perspective.
    See, I don't think this is true. Your ego is getting ahead of you and you're doing the lazy stereotyping of all Brexiters as Nick Griffin in the flesh.
    Just earlier you admitted you dislike the EU's lack of democracy, and that you support removing an unelected set of lawmakers, but yet you're voting in favour of not being able to vote?
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    See, I don't think this is true. Your ego is getting ahead of you and you're doing the lazy stereotyping of all Brexiters as Nick Griffin in the flesh.
    Where did I say that?


    Just earlier you admitted you dislike the EU's lack of democracy, and that you support removing an unelected set of lawmakers, but yet you're voting in favour of not being able to vote?


    Well you've got to be in it to change it (And I vote for MEPs and our own government)

    You may believe it is impossible to reform but I do not (And various treaty changes show that it is reforming).
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Well you've got to be in it to change it
    True, but why would we choose to remain in it when we could make our own if we desperately needed to? There's also the huge possibility that the EU will just collapse shortly after our exit.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    True, but why would we choose to remain in it when we could make our own if we desperately needed to?
    We cant have a united Europe with just the UK....
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    We cant have a united Europe with just the UK....
    Why do we need or want a united Europe? It's not like it hasn't worked perfectly well for us in history. Competition is the great motivator.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Why do we need or want a united Europe?
    Why do we want a united kingdom? Why do we want any state? Why cant we just exit by ourselves?

    It's not like it hasn't worked perfectly well for us in history.
    The collapse of the Roman Empire (for all its faults) heralded in the Dark Ages- which took about six hundred years to recover from.

    [/quote]
    Competition is the great motivator.[/QUOTE]

    No, human ingenuity is. A great many inventors, writers, musicians etc have died poor doing what they loved.
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    (Original post by Davij038)
    Why do we want a united kingdom?
    We're the leading partner in the Union, and the other countries help us acheive our goals.

    Funny you should mention the Romans, who many remain voters try to vaunt as the success of a federalised system

    Competition is the great motivator, however. The British empire wasn't built because we felt like it, we needed it to compete with other European empires. The same goes for virtually every invention borne of war.
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    There is an increasing push for proportional representation and direct democracy in British politics, but if we acheive perfect Swiss-style democracy, it wouldn't matter a bit because we'd still be trapped in the yoke of the EU. For democratic reforms to have any meaning, we first need to escape the undemocratic EU.
    Indeed. But there is no appetite for a Swiss style system in the UK so that is a none starter. But what we are going to find if (and I pretty not) we do leave the EU, is that we will still be bound by much of the legislation passed by the EU if we are to continue trading with them. The idea that there is some Utopian freedom beyond the EU is just a pipe dream I'm afraid. If there is one thing you will not notice whether we stay in or out, it is some sort of sense (or not) of greater freedom or democratic right. What you will notice is the economic impact that sees you / your mates / your family lose their jobs, the ability or not to buy a house and the cost of living fluctuate wildly. Democracy can go hang if I can't support my family,
 
 
 
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