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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    I believe Allah swt can not be described by direction, is not above anywhere. I believe he has no form, nor confine, nor limited contingency to be envisioned by my senses. I believe Allah swt is above change, and therefore can not 'ascend' or 'descend'. I believe that the essence of Tawheed neccessitates that he is one by his essence, in the sense non-divisible. He can not have hands, feet, etc even if i affirm they are not like our own.

    This is why i have named myself Tawheed. For i found the most satisfying and logical appreciation of Tawheed as taught by the Muhammed s.a.w family of Muhammed a.s

    I also do respect noble Sahaba, but i do not see them as one body. They differ in ranks. My judgement on a companion is purely based on their obidience to Allah swt, Rasullah s.a.w, and the family of the holy prophet s.a.w and other loyal sahaba r.a. Our historical sources differ , and so our views on shaba differ. Let us agree to disagree.
    From this post, you seem to suggest a dichotomy: either one believes in Allah's transcendence beyond all things or is a Sunni. If this is what you propose, this dichotomy is false. There are varying approaches to this matter within ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah, which all (if correctly followed up) affirm that Allah is beyond confinement to physical dimensions. This is key in the 'aqeedah (creed) of all Sunnis. The difference of approach lies in matters regarding tafweed.

    I mentioned the above because I am unsure as to whether you have a misconception regarding Sunni 'aqa'id (doctrines), rather than with the intention of debate.

    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Salam

    The sunni belief is that Allah (SWT) is above the heavens and descends to the lowest heaven every night, when one-third of the night is left.

    It was narrated by al-Bukhaari and by Muslim from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”

    We also believe that Allah has two feet, hands etc. however they do not resemble the normal human attributes but rather they are in a form which only befits Allah (SWT).

    [He is] Creator of the heavens and the earth. He has made for you from yourselves, mates, and among the cattle, mates; He multiplies you thereby. There is nothing like unto Him, and He is the Hearing, the Seeing. [Quran 42:11]

    I've put some ayats and hadith for evidence in the spoiler
    Spoiler:
    Show
    Narrated by al-Bukhaari and Muslim from Anas ibn Maalik, according to which the Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him) said: “Hell will keep saying, ‘Are there any more (to come)?’ until the Lord of Glory, may He be blessed and exalted, places His foot on it, then it will say, ‘Enough, enough, by Your glory!’ And all its parts will be integrated together.

    Allah (Exalted be He) also has said to Iblis (Satan): "What prevents you from prostrating yourself to one whom I have created with Both My Hands." [Surah Sad, 38: 75]

    He (Glorified be He) also says: "They made not a just estimate of Allah such as is due to Him. And on the Day of Resurrection the whole of the earth will be grasped by His Hand and the heavens will be rolled up in His Right Hand."
    [Surah Al-Zumar, 39: 67]
    To state all this as "the Sunni belief" is oversimplification of the different approaches regarding this matter.

    (Original post by z33)
    uwotm8
    what do you think angels are for?

    Also Allah has two hands and feet and a body now? Are you okay? Does He only absorb/ reflect UV radiation now is that why we don't see His body? Astaghfirullah...
    Do you think if someone says they "ruled with an iron fist" it means they actually have hands made of iron? Ever heard of metaphors? My God...
    This is an inappropriate manner of discussion when you are delving into matters relating to Allah. Especially as a Muslim. From some of your posts on this thread, imho, perhaps it is better to avoid discussions of difference of opinion when we are so opposed to anything other than what we believe.

    (Original post by h333)
    True brother. It is ashamed we are using words like sunni, shia, sufi etc to describe ourselves. Imagine what the prophet S.A.W would be thinking if he was here. It really is sad.

    One thing I don't understand, Islam was complete in the time of the prophet S.A.W and he completed his prophethood. Then why all these additions after him, is it necesaary to look into it so deeply?
    No brother, I must disagree here. Names are that by which we define ourselves. Yes, we shouldn't seek to further divide the Ummah, but where names and descriptions are used to distinguish between mutually exclusive beliefs, I don't see this as problematic. How else would we distinguish between, for example, the majority of Muslims and the Mu'tazila or the Ahmadiya?

    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Yes Islamqa are stricter than most other websites.
    But just because they may be strict or even wrong with one issue, it's unwise of you to completely dismiss everything else they may say.
    It's not about strictness. It's about fiqh.
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    No brother, I must disagree here. Names are that by which we define ourselves. Yes, we shouldn't seek to further divide the Ummah, but where names and descriptions are used to distinguish between mutually exclusive beliefs, I don't see this as problematic. How else would we distinguish between, for example, the majority of Muslims and the Mu'tazila or the Ahmadiya?
    I have to admit you are right. But still I see, is Islam as one. And do not like any other names to be on me than a Muslim. Simple as that. I know I am in a dream world lol as there are already divisions etc. But I just follow what is right and the Islam way with no bid'ah. Now with sunni beliefs I actually have no problem actually out of all the sects I know now. But I don't want to be called Sunni. I don't know how to explain this. The struggles lol.
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    (Original post by h333)
    I have to admit you are right. But still I see, is Islam as one. And do not like any other names to be on me than a Muslim. Simple as that. I know I am in a dream world lol as there are already divisions etc. But I just follow what is right and the Islam way with no bid'ah. Now with sunni beliefs I actually have no problem actually out of all the sects I know now. But I don't want to be called Sunni. I don't know how to explain this. The struggles lol.
    Haha, I know what you mean bro. In this way, that's a good mindset to have. The way I tend to explain it usually is that to assign yourself a name for the sake of splitting from the Muslims and become further divided is not what I agree with, but in terms of categorising yourself in a group for purposes of identification (eg. the fiqh that one follows, dissociating from groups with incorrect aqeedah, etc.) and distinguishing from that which is incorrect is different. So I would say that I am a Sunni in order to define that I am not a Shi'a, or an Ahmadi, etc. - not because I'm seeking a label.

    I hope that makes sense
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    I agree with Ash on all counts.
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    This is an inappropriate manner of discussion when you are delving into matters relating to Allah. Especially as a Muslim. From some of your posts on this thread, imho, perhaps it is better to avoid discussions of difference of opinion when we are so opposed to anything other than what we believe.
    If you read my other posts you'd see that I apologised kk?
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    (Original post by z33)
    If you read my other posts you'd see that I apologised kk?
    In that case, I offer my sincere apologies
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    In that case, I offer my sincere apologies
    Thank you
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    From this post, you seem to suggest a dichotomy: either one believes in Allah's transcendence beyond all things or is a Sunni. If this is what you propose, this dichotomy is false. There are varying approaches to this matter within ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama’ah, which all (if correctly followed up) affirm that Allah is beyond confinement to physical dimensions. This is key in the 'aqeedah (creed) of all Sunnis. The difference of approach lies in matters regarding tafweed.

    I mentioned the above because I am unsure as to whether you have a misconception regarding Sunni 'aqa'id (doctrines), rather than with the intention of debate.
    .
    Salamunalaykum brother,

    I have had extensive discussions on this issue with brothers from varying schools of thought on the issue within the ahlus-sunnah. From the salafi-types to the more hanafi-types. On youtube, in debates, in articles and books, you will find groups even within the ahlus-sunnah having very big disagreements on how to intepret the attributes of Allah swt.

    I acknowledge that even people like Ibn Taymiyyah considered Allah swt to be transcendent , and not like his creation.

    The issue is, on one hand, we all affirm Tawheed, the transcendence of Allah swt, but then, we run into some issues, due to hadiths as well as varying intepretation of them.

    Here are a few of my points of contention:

    You see, some people have intepreted the Quran mentioning the 'hands' of Allah to be literal attributes of his, whereas it is very common allegory to use 'right hand' , or to use 'with my own two hands' , or 'both his hands are outstretched', and you can tell from the verses these are metaphorical. Similarly, when Allah swt everything will perish save his face, it does not mean he has a literal face, but not like ours. Because if everything will perish , save his face, what of his hands, feet, shin and so on? I have seen brothers therefore state the verse is allegorical, Allah swt does not have a face, which brings into contention the inconsistency between saying one must take the verse at face value, and realizing it runs one into problems and intepreting them allegorically.

    As you can see, many times in the Quran do we see allegory:

    Quran: "The hand of Allah is over their hands."

    Quran: "Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth, lest they cease. And if they should cease, no one could hold them [in place] after Him. Indeed, He is Forbearing and Forgiving."

    Furthermore, by virtue of the essence of Tawheed, Allah is absolute, he can not be divided, he is Allah, and is one of essence. Therefore one can not say, Allah is one, but he has hands, shin, feet, fingers (yes , this is also said ), his hands are different from his shins, his feet are different from his hands, because that would contradict his absolute oneness. The creation are divisible by essence. The angels have wings, and constituent subunits.



    I must make this clear, even if one states, the hands, shin, fingers, feet of Allah swt are not like human hands, shins, feet, this is still dividing Allah swt into constituent sub-units, and therby detracting from his absolute oneness.

    Furthermore, one can say, 'I worship the hands of Allah', because technically, that is still the 'essence' of Allah swt. Or i worship another divisible part of him, his shin.

    I have many other points on this issue, but for sake of berevity and to let you answer , i've kept this very short.
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    (Original post by HAnwar)
    Salam

    The sunni belief is that Allah (SWT) is above the heavens and descends to the lowest heaven every night, when one-third of the night is left.

    It was narrated by al-Bukhaari and by Muslim from Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: “The Lord descends every night to the lowest heaven when one-third of the night remains and says: ‘Who will call upon Me, that I may answer Him? Who will ask of Me, that I may give him? Who will seek My forgiveness, that I may forgive him?’”
    Salamunalaykum sister,

    I'll address the ascending and descending part first, because even within the ahlus-sunnah there is major disagreement about this. I have watched video's by sunni speakers, as well as read books refuting this notion and idea.

    The confusion i believe comes due to the hadith you have mentioned.

    The belief as per the shia-school of thought is, Allah swt does not incur change. He is and always has been eternally and in one state.

    Creations engage in variables, whereby they move from x to y, because we require it, and are not omnipotent nor eternal, nor changless.

    Why does Allah swt, require descent, from variable x to variable y? If one says at one time, Allah is not at variable y, but is at variable x, that means change has taken place in terms of the essence of Allah swt.

    Furthermore, Allah swt is all powerful, and omnipotent, aware of all things and has power over all things. Why would he require descent, or movement?



    Man Lā Yaḥḍuruh al-Faqīh, Graded sahih
    ‘O son of the Messenger of Allāh, what do you say about the ḥadīth which the people narrate from the Messenger of Allāh, that he said: ‘Allāh descends in every night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night) to the earth’s heavens’’.
    He said: ‘...The Messenger of Allāh has not said that! Verily, he said: ‘Allāh) sends down an angel to the earth’s heavens in the last third of every night, and the first part of the night of Friday (i.e. Thursday night). And He commands him to call, ‘Are there any (who) asks, so that I can grant him?’; ‘Are there any repenters that I should forgive him?’;..."

    A video by sunni speakers also discussing the fact that Allah swt sends an angel, not desending himself:
    Some sunni's as well as all shia's believe that actually, Allah swt sends an angel:




    IslamQa , and i do say this with the utmost respect, represents the salafi-tradition. You will find them clashing with other groups in the ahlus-sunnah on this issue.
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    (Original post by Tawheed)
    Salamunalaykum brother,

    I have had extensive discussions on this issue with brothers from varying schools of thought on the issue within the ahlus-sunnah. From the salafi-types to the more hanafi-types. On youtube, in debates, in articles and books, you will find groups even within the ahlus-sunnah having very big disagreements on how to intepret the attributes of Allah swt.

    I acknowledge that even people like Ibn Taymiyyah considered Allah swt to be transcendent , and not like his creation.

    The issue is, on one hand, we all affirm Tawheed, the transcendence of Allah swt, but then, we run into some issues, due to hadiths as well as varying intepretation of them.

    Here are a few of my points of contention:

    You see, some people have intepreted the Quran mentioning the 'hands' of Allah to be literal attributes of his, whereas it is very common allegory to use 'right hand' , or to use 'with my own two hands' , or 'both his hands are outstretched', and you can tell from the verses these are metaphorical. Similarly, when Allah swt everything will perish save his face, it does not mean he has a literal face, but not like ours. Because if everything will perish , save his face, what of his hands, feet, shin and so on? I have seen brothers therefore state the verse is allegorical, Allah swt does not have a face, which brings into contention the inconsistency between saying one must take the verse at face value, and realizing it runs one into problems and intepreting them allegorically.

    As you can see, many times in the Quran do we see allegory:

    Quran: "The hand of Allah is over their hands."

    Quran: "Indeed, Allah holds the heavens and the earth, lest they cease. And if they should cease, no one could hold them [in place] after Him. Indeed, He is Forbearing and Forgiving."

    Furthermore, by virtue of the essence of Tawheed, Allah is absolute, he can not be divided, he is Allah, and is one of essence. Therefore one can not say, Allah is one, but he has hands, shin, feet, fingers (yes , this is also said ), his hands are different from his shins, his feet are different from his hands, because that would contradict his absolute oneness. The creation are divisible by essence. The angels have wings, and constituent subunits.

    I must make this clear, even if one states, the hands, shin, fingers, feet of Allah swt are not like human hands, shins, feet, this is still dividing Allah swt into constituent sub-units, and therby detracting from his absolute oneness.

    Furthermore, one can say, 'I worship the hands of Allah', because technically, that is still the 'essence' of Allah swt. Or i worship another divisible part of him, his shin.

    I have many other points on this issue, but for sake of berevity and to let you answer , i've kept this very short.
    Wa 'alaykum assalaam (and peace be upon you).

    So from the above post, I gather that the dichotomy I referred to in my previous post is not what you hold to be the case?

    As I mentioned in a previous post, this whole matter has some select differences of approach amongst Sunnis. The point to take home is that A sunni's belief is summarised as follows:

    Imam al-Nasafi (Allah have mercy on him) states, "He [Allah] is not a body (jism), nor an atom (jawhar), nor is He something formed (musawwar), nor a thing limited (mahdud), nor a thing numbered (ma'dud), nor a thing portioned or divided, nor a thing compounded (mutarakkab), and nor does He come to end in Himself. He is not described by quiddity (al-mahiyya), or by quality (al-kayfiyya), nor is He placed in a space (al-makan); and time (al-zaman) does not affect Him. Nothing resembles Him; that is to say, nothing is like unto Him."

    Mulla Ali al-Qari (may Allah have mercy on him) states in his commentary of Al-Fiqh al-Akbar, "We are unable to comprehend Allah Most High. Whatever occurs in one's mind [regarding Allah's appearance], Allah is other than that, for Allah says: 'But they shall not encompass Him with their knowledge.'" (Minah al-Rawd al-Azhar fi sharh al-Fiqh al-Akbar)

    Mufti Muhammad ibn Adam explains: "As such, this basic and central aqida in Allah's transcendence is the only requirement from a believer (along with general affirmation of all of Allah's attributes), and would be sufficient for one's salvation. Thereafter, there is no need for a simple believer to scrutinize the technical details of Allah's attributes, and there is definitely no need for disputes and arguments. Most Muslims – if not all – deny that Allah resembles His creation, thus argumentation and haste in declaring others as disbelievers must be avoided."

    Dwelling on the mutashaabihaat (matters of uncertainty) is something that Allah has described of being unbecoming of those with true faith


    هُوَ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ عَلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ مِنْهُ آيَاتٌ مُّحْكَمَاتٌ هُنَّ أُمُّ الْكِتَابِ وَأُخَرُ مُتَشَابِهَاتٌ ۖ فَأَمَّا الَّذِينَ فِي قُلُوبِهِمْ زَيْغٌ فَيَتَّبِعُونَ مَا تَشَابَهَ مِنْهُ ابْتِغَاءَ الْفِتْنَةِ وَابْتِغَاءَ تَأْوِيلِهِ ۗ وَمَا يَعْلَمُ تَأْوِيلَهُ إِلَّا اللَّهُ ۗ وَالرَّاسِخُونَ فِي الْعِلْمِ يَقُولُونَ آمَنَّا بِهِ كُلٌّ مِّنْ عِندِ رَبِّنَا ۗ وَمَا يَذَّكَّرُ إِلَّا أُولُو الْأَلْبَابِ
    It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] precise - they are the foundation of the Book - and others unspecific. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unspecific, seeking discord and seeking an interpretation [suitable to them]. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah . But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.
    [Surah Aali 'Imraan, ayah 7]


    As for why there are different stances among Ahl al-Sunnah wal-Jama'ah, the above ayah makes clear why there is the stance of tafweed. This is the default. Another approach is ta'weel - which is limited to where it is required and where it is justified as per the texts, and involves not ascribing a meaning of allegory with certainty. The position which you mention more is tathbeet, perhaps likening it to tashbeeh. This is harmful to one, as it encourages one to see other's as disbelievers based on incorrectly interpreting their views. Tashbeeh is anthropomorphism. Tathbeet is to affirm the words that Allah has used to describe himself, yet to assign its full meaning and details to Allah, as man is incapable of encompassing full knowledge of the Creator through a mere human intellect.


    What is important is to not repeatedly invite the youth, who are unacquainted with these differences, their validity and their subtleties, to delve into matters that the scholars rightfully encouraged the layman to avoid. So long as Allah's transcendence above all is acknowledged and there is nothing that is incorrect (such as actually doing tashbeeh), there is no need to dwell on such discussions.



    In summary:

    - tathbeet is not to be confused with tashbeeh
    * there is no point in delving into a discussion without understanding the subtleties when the subtleties are so imperative to grasp in the subject
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    Haha, I know what you mean bro. In this way, that's a good mindset to have. The way I tend to explain it usually is that to assign yourself a name for the sake of splitting from the Muslims and become further divided is not what I agree with, but in terms of categorising yourself in a group for purposes of identification (eg. the fiqh that one follows, dissociating from groups with incorrect aqeedah, etc.) and distinguishing from that which is incorrect is different. So I would say that I am a Sunni in order to define that I am not a Shi'a, or an Ahmadi, etc. - not because I'm seeking a label.

    I hope that makes sense
    Ahaha it is funny as you think I am a brother.
    I agree with all you said brother. Thanks Atleast you appreciate my mindset. Whenever I say this to anyone....they jump to conclusions of converting me to their sect as if they have grabbed an easy opportunity looool. Then they start labeling me as sunni, shia etc. And I am just there like M-U-S-L-I-M spells Muslim. :toofunny:

    Ok on serious note, I accept being called Sunni then if I am going to have a label. The only one I can approve of. Basically as long its beliefs match the Qu'ran and the authentic hadiths. And basically no bid'ah.
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    (Original post by h333)
    Ahaha it is funny as you think I am a brother.
    I agree with all you said brother. Thanks Atleast you appreciate my mindset. Whenever I say this to anyone....they jump to conclusions of converting me to their sect as if they have grabbed an easy opportunity looool. Then they start labeling me as sunni, shia etc. And I am just there like M-U-S-L-I-M spells Muslim. :toofunny:

    Ok on serious note, I accept being called Sunni then if I am going to have a label. The only one I can approve of. Basically as long its beliefs match the Qu'ran and the authentic hadiths. And basically no bid'ah.
    Oh, my apologies, sister

    It's something some people refer to as 'saved sect syndrome' :lol:
    If you try to stick to what is correct, you may well find yourself to align with particular groups in terms of having similarities. But of course, that then means that you are more likely to seek benefit from their scholars as opposed to joining the sectarian mindset and shunning every other group of scholars. We take the good and leave the bad.

    :yy:
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    (Original post by ash92:))
    Oh, my apologies, sister

    It's something some people refer to as 'saved sect syndrome' :lol:
    If you try to stick to what is correct, you may well find yourself to align with particular groups in terms of having similarities. But of course, that then means that you are more likely to seek benefit from their scholars as opposed to joining the sectarian mindset and shunning every other group of scholars. We take the good and leave the bad.

    :yy:
    No problem brother, I have always wanted to be a brother ahaha jks.

    Yeah true brother, that is what my aim is all the time to stick to the Sunnah and leave what is bad in shaa Allah. I am not that vulnerable, and can figure it out if it opposes the Sunnah or Qu'ran.

    I mean not everything about the shia sect is wrong, like some things I also approve of, but I can never come to accepting it entirely. This is because of some of its fundamental beliefs.

    May Allah keep us all on the straight true path. Ameen.
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    (Original post by Al-farhan)
    There are theological differences but we share the base belief in Allah and his messenger, fast, hajj..etc
    That would also cover Ahmadi Muslims too.
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    (Original post by TheContrarian)
    That would also cover Ahmadi Muslims too.
    Do Ahmadi muslims believe in the finality of prophethood?
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    (Original post by h333)
    No problem brother, I have always wanted to be a brother ahaha jks.

    Yeah true brother, that is what my aim is all the time to stick to the Sunnah and leave what is bad in shaa Allah. I am not that vulnerable, and can figure it out if it opposes the Sunnah or Qu'ran.

    I mean not everything about the shia sect is wrong, like some things I also approve of, but I can never come to accepting it entirely. This is because of some of its fundamental beliefs.

    May Allah keep us all on the straight true path. Ameen.
    Ameen
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    (Original post by h333)
    Wait, what?? How can they be sinless are they not humans....they are not even prophets soo why?
    They are purified via the verse 33:33 I believe

    I also assume you believe the Holy Prophet is sinless? Are you now saying that the Prophet isn't human?
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    (Original post by mil88)
    X
    Be careful about raising these points brother. I've studied the syrian conflict thoroughly, but i have avoided refuting on it atm, due to exams and time constraint, and because i want to make a thorough reply of it.

    I think it will back-fire turning it on sunni's, whether or not the point holds some legitimacy (in terms of scholars making takfir).

    Also, the individual in question believes the syrian conflict is primarily on the feet of shia's. He believes, for some unknown reason, many shia's are supporting the ethnic cleansing of sunni's, not for one moment considering that, hey, maybe there needs to be a more nuanced, more careful approach that must be utilized when approaching such a complex multi-national, multi-ethnic, utterly complex conflict.

    I have purposefuly chosen not to reply to him, not out of enimity or disrespect, but because i inshAllah, am going to properly refute every statement.

    The idea that i support a blood thirsty killer of sunni muslims, for some unknown and peverse reason, is secterian propaganda which i have no doubt has eminated from the vitrol and secterianism that has primarily been propagated by the likes of ahrar asham, jaysh al islam, jabhat al nusra, Daesh itself, as well as the other secterian groups.

    Contrary to popular belief, the majority of people i have obtained my information with regards to syria are not shia, they are mostly secular, anti-imperial, anti-american invasion, anti-zionism, groups, from all walks of life. Indeed, many , many sunni's i know and i have obtained information from have also believed in the view point i have on syria.

    On such a complex conflict, taking black and white view points without understanding the nuances of the conflict at hand is very dangerous.
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    As bad as Assad is, had Assad fallen, you would have had the most powerful groups there, ahrar asham, jaysh al islam, jabhat al nusra, and Daesh run syria over completely.

    Vitrolistic secterian groups, radical groups, also at fault of crimes against humanity, with advanced weaponary, planes, and access to minorities, including a large bulk of sunni's against them, would lead to untold misery and suffering.

    I want a de-escalation of the conflict, all groups on all sides who have commited crimes to be brought to justice, the removal and destruction of deash, jabhat al nusra, ahrar-asham, and any moderate opposition groups to come to the table, and under international observation, the syrian people, to choose fairly and democratically, their future.

    That would be impossible had the likes of al nusra, daesh, ahrar asham jaysh al islam et al taken the helm. Absolutely impossible.
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    Ah yes the sickening apology for the butcher of Sham comes out.
 
 
 
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