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Countdown to the Referendum: What We Should All Know About the EU vs. UK Independence watch

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    (Original post by Nurne)
    Luckily there aren't enough xenophobes in the country to allow this country to leave the EU. Those who don't know will swing to remain and remain will win the referendum. Probably about 55% to 45%. And if we are very lucky UKIP and Britain First would disband.


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    It's xenophobic to want to leave the EU?

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    (Original post by Foo.mp3)
    I'm no great authority when it comes to the European Union (EU), but it's probably as well to establish my credentials and interest in this topic before I break it down. I'm a graduate Economist, with a particular interest in the economics of inequality, housing, and the environment, as well as politics and international relations, and over a decade of experience studying and debating a multitude of issues pertaining to the social sciences

    I'm fairly politically engaged, follow current affairs, actively participate in political canvassing and campaigning activities, and am a Fourth Way pragmatic pluralist; this means that I believe policymaking should be pitched at delivering outcomes that make for a sustainably vibrant, prosperous, and diverse society – rather than acting in accordance with a particular, inflexible ideology and/or 'special interests' i.e. I believe we ought to leave pathetically parochial/partisan party politics, and ‘third way’ populism, firmly in the past, and be guided by conscience, not Crony Capitalism

    Perhaps also worth mentioning that my family and I have lived on the continent, as well as my home-town: cosmopolitan London, have studied, worked, and socialised with scores of Europeans, and that my ex-partners include a French editor and a Greek lecturer. I'm a committed Europhile in the true sense of the word (disambiguated from support for the ailing EU): I feel a strong sense of fraternity and solidarity with our continental cousins, and think Europe a fantastic place – steeped in rich culture, history, and heritage, and (ordinarily) abound with opportunities
    - - -
    Sovereignty and Democracy
    • Jean Monnet (a founding father of the EU): 'Common market will lead to unity and produce [political union which is the goal' | NWE
    • President Jean Claude Juncker: "There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties" | BBC
    • Democratically elected Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) cannot propose, initiate, or even repeal legislation | EUR
    • What MEPs have done, however, is to vote for the EU to diminish our direct influence in the United Nations (UN) Security Council | EXP

    • A federalised United States of Europe and EU armed forces are very real prospects a la: 'ever closer union' and 'common defence' | EUR
    • Equivocation regarding threats to security and co-ordinated foreign/domestic security and defence policy responses are an equally real prospect

    • The bulk of UK law originates from/is influenced by EU law - which is supreme, at any rate. Even the Queen is reduced to an: 'EU Citizen' | HoC
    • EU corpus juris lacks many legal safeguards e.g. limited detention without trial, habeas corpus, and trial by jury, as routine | IND
    • We are 1 voice in 28 (soon to be 35), and have only a tiny share (13%) of the all important EU Council of Ministers vote vs. "at top table" | FFT
    • Surreptitious global (crony) capitalist deals like TTIP will eventually get passed vs. consumer/privacy/environmental standards and GovT sued | ZH


    Society and Security
    • The sheer number of migrants, and transience/lack of integration in some cases, is causing societal friction and pressure on public services
    • It's clear that it has become increasingly difficult to secure affordable/social housing due, in large part, to related demand-side pressure | HSG
    • No control over massive EU migration has led to GovT squeezing other migrants, which is both iniquitous and to the detriment of our nation | GDN

    • Organised crime gangs are able to operate with impunity thanks to free movement - now around 13,000 trafficking victims in the UK | GOV
    • The European Court of Justice (ECJ) arbitrarily blocks the deportation of convicted criminals, as well as unskilled and unemployed migrants

    The Migrant Crisis is a shambles and the EU intends to fine member states a quarter of a million Euros per asylum seeker they refuse entry | BBC
    • EU Com has agreed to award people travelling from Turkey visa free travel and essentially committed to fast-tracking Turkish membership | BBC
    • Other Muslim nations are also earmarked for accession - Bosnia, 'The Cradle of Modern Jihadism', recently submitted it's application | BBC


    Trade and Economics
    • Gross, average (all sector) UK payments to reportedly fraudulent/wasteful EU institutions total c.£350m per week, or £55m per day | FFT
    • Of the 35% of public funds we get back, post-rebate, we don't simply get to say how it's spent and it often has to be match-funded | EUR
    • The EU fisheries & aquaculture fund has allocated the UK just 21% vs. Spanish industry: who pay in far less, and fish (our waters) far more | EUR

    • The net fiscal contribution of all EEA migrants is negative, costing HM Treasury over a billion pounds a year according to the latest reports | MW
    • The effect of free movement is effectively to drive down wages/employment T&Cs at the bottom, and to drive up bankers' bonuses at the top | GDN
    • Big business is using the ECJ to claw back billions of pounds of historic tax revenues, yet we are told remaining is about social solidarity | DM
    • Former Governor of BoE, Lord Mervyn King: Euro depression has occurred "almost as a deliberate act of policy" by EU elites | TEL
    • Conduct of EU/ECB with regards to GRE & IRE: absolutely scandalous e.g. surreptitious, nefarious media briefings + pushed into bailouts | TEL

    • Unlike Switzerland/Norway, UK runs a sizeable trade deficit with the EU (goods account: £100bn+ p.a.) and is biggest importer of EU goods | NIE
    • We are forecast to become the 3rd largest economy in the world within a generation and already do trade worth £330bn p.a. with US | TMS
    • Article 50 of The Maastricht Treaty stipulates that trade arrangements may continue for a minimum of two years i.e. we have two years grace | WIK
    • Top exporters to the EU: China, USA, etc trade rather freely, and prosperously, in the absence of membership of the customs union | EUR
    bully-boy blackmail blunder, just doesn't stack up


    Red Tape and Interference
    • CAP takes up half of EU budget, 80% goes to (wealthy) 25% of farmers, it’s wasteful, and harms farmers outside EU e.g. food dumping | EUR
    • Jaguar Land Rover stopped making the renowned Defender model in the UK because it couldn't comply with arbitrary EU emissions laws | BBC
    • Ryton Peugeot factory in Coventry was relocated to Slovakia with the loss of thousands of jobs - a move the EU funded to the tune of £78m | BBC
    • The British Police, and a myriad of other public bodies, cannot treat British car makers preferentially because of EU procurement rules | TEL

    • The UK cannot reduce VAT at will e.g. to below 5% on domestic fuels under EU law and most businesses are subject to ridiculous standards | GDN
    • EU regulations stifle many SMEs and dynamism, and even the establishment admits that they cost our businesses alone around £10bn p.a. | GOV


    #VoteLeave
    • We regain control of our rights, borders, waters (fishing), waterways (reduce flood risk), transport , and can slash red tape
    • We end EU institutional supremacy, retake our seat at the Word Trade Organisation (WTO), and are free to spend our money on our priorities
    • We are free to foster a healthy new cooperative, free trade relationship with our European partners and meritocratic immigration
    • We set the scene for EU reform and can always mirror progressive EU trends in a way that suits our culture, society, and economy



    - - -
    It is important to note that whilst the above analysis represents an earnest attempt to convey the facts of the matter, we won't know for sure how anything will pan out until/unless we vote for real change. What is clear, however, is that this is a once in a lifetime opportunity, that will affect the lives of every man, woman, and child of this country for generations to come. It's extremely important that we do not shirk this responsibility, or allow 'project fear' to determine our collective fate, and that us young people in particular put sentimentality and fairly deeply ingrained pro-EU propaganda to one side, and really stop and think about what it is we are being asked to decide

    Please share this information with as many people, on as many platforms, as possible. It's extremely important that we do our utmost to empower young people to make a truly informed decision, armed with all the facts, as this is the demographic that could swing the result
    If we leave the EU will there be any change on the VAT price of Silver?
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    £350 million a week paid to the EU. Tax payers money should be spent in this country. We can use this money to fix our weak economy and build new trade deals with other countries. It is all possible. We could also control our borders and control immigration. Lets take back control, and we will see our economy improve, rather than run away from it for a very long time.

    There is a thing called "the UK rebate/correction" which reduces it to £245 million a week (which however is in jeopardy every 7 years.)

    Then considering the EU budget spent on us, the figure is reduced to £168 million, however we don't get to decide how this money is spent, and it comes with EU propaganda, despite the excess of £168 million we pay into the EU.

    I'm just saying this because the figure of £350 million a week is a tad misleading and I don't want a Bremainer to call you out on it and discredit your argument because of it.

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    Even worse than the scaremongering form both sides is the use of "Scaremongering" or "Project Fear!" s a response to any concerns that a decision one way or another might lead to anything negative.

    Bank of England projects a reduction in growth, or even the economy shrinking? Scaremongering!

    Potential for increased immigration if Turkey joins the EU? Fearmongerers!

    Increased unemployment forecast if we vote Leave? Project Fear!

    I mean, this kind of refusal to properly discuss the issues in an adult manner is alarming. I'd be disappointed if my colleagues thought that this was the way to conduct a debate. But here we have elected MPs who think it is appropriate to avoid discussing real, important issues. And this is happening on both sides of the campaign.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    £350 million a week paid to the EU. Tax payers money should be spent in this country. We can use this money to fix our weak economy and build new trade deals with other countries. It is all possible. We could also control our borders and control immigration. Lets take back control, and we will see our economy improve, rather than run away from it for a very long time.

    LOL! Everyone knows the £350 million figure is wrong.

    This is old. Bojo has stopped saying it. It's about time you do too.
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    (Original post by ib_hopeful)
    LOL! Everyone knows the £350 million figure is wrong.

    This is old. Bojo has stopped saying it. It's about time you do too.
    It is not wrong.
    People in this country are not getting enough from the economy.
    Wages are getting very low, taxes are high and there is less jobs.
    It is clear that our lives are not doing well while we are in the EU.

    Thats because part of the country's money goes to EU membership. We can change this if we leave the EU.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    It is not wrong.
    People in this country are not getting enough from the economy.
    Wages are getting very low, taxes are high and there is less jobs.
    It is clear that our lives are not doing well while we are in the EU.

    Thats because part of the country's money goes to EU membership. We can change this if we leave the EU.
    Less jobs? UK unemployment has been falling for some years now:

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    Wages getting low? UK wages are rising
    <broken img - see below>

    Taxes are high? UK taxation is pretty stable and not as high as it has been.


    We can change this if we leave EU? Yes these improvements can be reversed.

    You aren't very good at this are you.
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    (Original post by jneill)
    We can change this if we leave EU? Yes these improvements can be reversed.
    Re-posting the Wages chart. Didn't upload correctly.

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    (Original post by jneill)
    Re-posting the Wages chart. Didn't upload correctly.

    Name:  Screen Shot 2016-06-21 at 08.53.55.jpg
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    Doesnt change the fact that I will be Voting Leave.
    I care about this country. The country right now is not doing well.
    Im not going to listen to Dodgy Dave's false promises and rubbish facts/figures.

    Im Voting Leave because I want UK to have it's sovereignty back. I am also Voting Leave because I want UK to take back control of the £350 million paid to EU every week, take back control of our free trade laws, take back control of our borders and our tax funds.
    Clearly, the economy of this country is weakening. If we want good economy, more investments into our country, better quality of life for our families and children, then we should Vote Leave.
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    VOTE BLOODY LEAVE!!!!!!

    Ive come to the conclusion that the remain group cannot see beyond the end of their own noses, and are the 'im alright jack' crowd [and screw the grandkids]

    The NHS will be sold off and privatised for certain if we remain in the EU.

    Hundreds of papers from the secretive trade talks between the US and EU have been released online. They appear to confirm fears that the Transatlantic Trade and Investment Partnership talks between Brussels and Washington will, when ratified, lead to the health service being privatised or dismantled. The documents, obtained by Greenpeace Netherlands, include a US proposal to have a committee with representatives from Washington and Brussels to meet each year “to review state-owned enterprises and monopolies” which would include the NHS.
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    For anyone who missed TSR's Big EU Referendum - The Panel Debate, here are the main points raised on behalf of #VoteLeave:

    #VoteLeave: UK Finances
    As a committed Europhile (in the true sense of the word) I feel a strong sense of fraternity with our continental cousins, and as someone who has lived on the continent know Europe to be a fantastic place – steeped in rich culture, history, and heritage, and (ordinarily) abound with opportunities. As a learned social scientist, and someone who has dedicated himself to exploring/debating the EU in some detail, I also feel a sense of foreboding about our continued membership of the ailing institution, however:

    UK ECONOMY
    • UK payments to the EU (£13bn p.a.) constitute 20% of the budget deficit, of which only a third comes back – with strings attached | FFT
    • Net fiscal contribution of EEA migrants is +/- £2bn, or 0.25% of public expenditure i.e. impact of EU migration is small either way | MW
    • One of Project Fear’s many threats is that #Brexit will see house prices fall by 20%, according to the Chancellor. Yes please, Mr. Osborne! | GDN

    PUBLIC FINANCES
    • The way the EU has briefed against, bullied, and corralled, countries like Greece and Ireland is nothing short of scandalous | REU
    • UK already bailed out Eurozone (£20bn) sadly on the brink of another crisis – one that will cost us all dearly/probably be terminal for the EU | FT
    • Big business is using the ECJ to claw back billions of pounds of historic tax revenues. Remaining is about social solidarity and sustainability? | DM

    UK INDUSTRY
    • UK fishing receives just 21% of the funds that the EU sends to the Spanish, who pay in far less, and fish (our waters) far more | EUR
    • EU Common Fisheries Policy has cost an estimated 115,000 jobs, decimating British fishing/significantly degrading proud maritime history | TYO
    • CAP takes up half of EU budget, 80% goes to 25% of farmers, it’s wasteful, and harms farmers outside EU e.g. food dumping | EUR



    #VoteLeave: UK Trade
    It is impossible to be completely clear as to the precise impact of Brexit on trade; that is, except to say that when it comes to International Political Economy, and the quality of our diplomatic/economic personnel and institutions, the UK is very well placed to minimise related turbulence, and that - contrary to what the media has been telling us - there are plenty of respected Economists who have conducted detailed analyses and concluded that leaving would be in our economic interests e.g. Professors Minford and Congdon, Economists For Brexit, and Capital Economics

    TRADE POSITION
    • We are the 5th largest economy in the world, and are forecast to leapfrog Germany and Japan within a generation | TMS
    • Unlike Switzerland/Norway, we run a sizeable trade deficit with the EU (£120bn worth of goods) and are the biggest importer of EU goods | NIE
    • Top exporters to the EU: China, USA, etc trade rather freely, and prosperously, in the absence of membership of the customs union | EUR



    #VoteLeave: Free Movement
    INEQUALITY
    • Effect of free movement is effectively to drive down wages/employment T&Cs at the bottom, and to drive up bankers' bonuses at the top | GDN
    • The best and brightest Europeans have been emigrating en masse, worsening spatial deprivation by inflicting a 'brain drain' on the periphery
    • Our National Living Wage, whilst laudable, will further incentivise millions to travel to the UK, when income disparities are already huge

    SOCIETY
    • The sheer number, mobility, and patchy levels of integration of migrants is irrefutably causing societal friction and pressure on public services
    • It's clear that it has become increasingly difficult to secure affordable/social housing due, in large part, to related demand-side pressure | HSG
    • Roughly 50% of EU migrants return home within a decade but this churning thematic is linked to low English learning/integration | UoR

    SECURITY
    • EU’s European Court of Justice (ECJ) arbitrarily prevents barring/deportation of convicted criminals, terrorists, and unemployed migrants | BBC
    The Migrant Crisis is a shambles and the EU intends to fine member states a €250,000 per asylum seeker they refuse entry | BBC
    • Relatively unvetted non-EU migrants are being given EU residency/citizenship. We are unable to bar their entry, despite ISIS threat | REU[/spoiler]



    #VoteLeave: Political/Legislative Issues
    THE EUROPEAN PROJECT
    • Jean Monnet (founding father of the EU): 'Common market will lead to unity and produce political union which is the goal' | NWE
    • President Jean Claude Juncker: "There can be no democratic choice against the European treaties" | BBC

    DEMOCRATIC DEFICIT
    • Democratically elected Members of the European Parliament (MEPs) cannot propose, initiate, or even repeal legislation | EUR
    • We are 1 voice in 28 (soon to be 35), and have only a tiny share (13%) of the all important EU Council of Ministers vote vs. "at top table" | FFT

    LOSS OF SOVEREIGNTY
    • A federalised United States of Europe and EU armed forces are very real prospects a la: 'ever closer union' and 'common defence' | EUR
    • The bulk of UK law is already heavily influenced by EU law - which is supreme, at any rate. Political unification will mean total submission | HoC

    LOSS OF DIGNITY
    • Surreptitious global (crony) capitalist deals like TTIP will eventually get passed vs. consumer/privacy/environmental standards and GovT sued | ZH
    • No control over massive EU migration has led to GovT squeezing other migrants, which is both iniquitous and to the detriment of our nation | GDN



    #VoteLeave: The Future EU
    REFORM
    • Ours is the first exit-referendum that the powers that be have failed to prevent in the 23 years the EU has technically been in existence
    • There is no appetite, need, or incentive for the EU to reform itself and if we remain in then the reform agenda will be completely dead and buried
    • Crippling effects of Eurozone suffocation and EU austerity on (youth) unemployment and welfare mean most Europeans are desperate for reform | EUR
    • Greece tried to use Democracy to effect change with a referendum; the EU rejected the will of the people and instigated regime change! | ZH

    SECURITY
    • Switzerland will not be sharing the security woes of the EU, having opted out of free movement (2014) and withdrawn EU application last week | DM
    • EU Com has agreed to award people travelling from Turkey visa free travel and essentially committed to fast-tracking Turkish membership | BBC
    • Other Eastern nations are also earmarked for accession - Bosnia, 'The Cradle of Modern Jihadism', recently submitted it's application | BBC
    • Cameron has stated that he wants these countries to join, and repeatedly refused to commit to vetoing Turkish membership on QT | BBC




    #VoteLeave: #BeLeave in Britain!

    • We regain control of our rights, borders, waters (fishing), waterways (reduce flood risk), transport, and can slash red tape
    • We end EU institutional supremacy, retake our seat at the Word Trade Organisation (WTO), and are free to spend our money on our priorities
    • We are free to foster a healthy new cooperative, free trade relationship with our European partners and meritocratic immigration
    • We set the scene for EU reform and can always mirror progressive EU trends in a way that suits our culture, society, and economy

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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    Even worse than the scaremongering form both sides is the use of "Scaremongering" or "Project Fear!" s a response to any concerns that a decision one way or another might lead to anything negative.

    Bank of England projects a reduction in growth, or even the economy shrinking? Scaremongering!

    Potential for increased immigration if Turkey joins the EU? Fearmongerers!

    Increased unemployment forecast if we vote Leave? Project Fear!

    I mean, this kind of refusal to properly discuss the issues in an adult manner is alarming. I'd be disappointed if my colleagues thought that this was the way to conduct a debate. But here we have elected MPs who think it is appropriate to avoid discussing real, important issues. And this is happening on both sides of the campaign.
    Very well said.
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    Why do you Leavers bash people simply because you disagree with them?

    If it's a democracy you want, you should be glad to hear opposing views so you can form a more informed opinion.

    If you only listen to people who say we're giving £350m to the EU, you're living in a bubble of misinformation. It's self-defeating and it's hypocritical.

    By all means vote Leave, but don't do it on the basis of lies. It's undemocratic, anti-intellectualist, and remarkably hypocritical.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Doesnt change the fact that I will be Voting Leave.
    I care about this country. The country right now is not doing well.
    Im not going to listen to Dodgy Dave's false promises and rubbish facts/figures.
    .
    AKA
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    (Original post by offhegoes)

    Potential for increased immigration if Turkey joins the EU? Fearmongerers!

    .
    Well, I think most Remainers will discuss Turkey here.

    The reality is that Turkey won't join. They have been trying to join for close to 20 years and they have gone backwards in that time.

    Even a simple visa agreement cannot be agreed upon. Joining the EU would require so many changes to the Turkish system that I cannot see it happening.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Doesnt change the fact that I will be Voting Leave.
    I care about this country. The country right now is not doing well.
    Im not going to listen to Dodgy Dave's false promises and rubbish facts/figures.

    Im Voting Leave because I want UK to have it's sovereignty back. I am also Voting Leave because I want UK to take back control of the £350 million paid to EU every week, take back control of our free trade laws, take back control of our borders and our tax funds.
    Clearly, the economy of this country is weakening. If we want good economy, more investments into our country, better quality of life for our families and children, then we should Vote Leave.
    How dare you say we have a weak country!
    Since joining the EEC/EU in 1973 we have even outperformed the United States. Be proud of this country!
    Be proud of our success within the EU!

    Vote REMAIN!

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    (Original post by jneill)
    How dare you say we have a weak country!
    Since joining the EEC/EU in 1973 we have even outperformed the United States. Be proud of this country!
    Be proud of our success within the EU!

    Vote REMAIN!

    That does not mean our economy is good. There are lower job opportunities in UK and VERY low wages compared to before so stop fooling us.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    That does not mean our economy is good. There are lower job opportunities in UK and VERY low wages compared to before so stop fooling us.
    And then back to
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    That does not mean our economy is good. There are lower job opportunities in UK and VERY low wages compared to before so stop fooling us.
    You do know what GDP per capita means?

    And do you want that chart of UK unemployment again? Here you go: (look, LOOK, it's going down)

    Name:  UK unemployment rate.jpg
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    smh
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    (Original post by jneill)
    You do know what GDP per capita means?

    And do you want that chart of UK unemployment again? Here you go: (look, LOOK, it's going down)

    Name:  UK unemployment rate.jpg
Views: 61
Size:  138.9 KB


    smh
    Naveed, when actually confronted doesn't know what to say. He's looking for something on the net now to copy and paste. :lol:
 
 
 

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