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    (Original post by typonaut)
    There is obviously a balance between different things going on here: do we want some food security (ie be assured of our supply) against how much do we want to pay for such. Or do we want farmers to be the "guardians" of the countryside, and are we prepared to subsidise them to do that?

    I understand the point you are making. But there has also been a long standing subsidy to employers via low minimum wage levels and top-ups with social security payments.

    At the same time I don't see many Brexiteers arguing that they are going to reduce farm subsidies - they are just saying that they will take the money going to Brussels and redistribute it themselves.
    In reality they likely will fall, especially when a Labour government eventually gets in, it won't be an immediate cut but I would expect the subsidies to gradually fall
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    If the nation chooses to stay I really can't imagine the Tories would put forward someone who wanted to leave.
    Likewise if we leave, it should be a brexiter to handle the exit.
    Remember that half the MPs (more unofficially) and most of the members are in favour of leaving and are hardly want George, would you care to propose another brexiter who is more likely than Boris to make it to the member ballot?
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    The real reasons for voting Remain - the ones that Remain supporters really believe rather than their disingenuous arguments are given below:

    The "sod you, I'm OK brigade":
    They either receive or imagine they, personally will receive a bonus from the EU like a research grant or a job in the EU.

    The World Government Psychopaths:
    Wouldn't it be lovely if we were all the same? There would be no wars and everyone could live happily ever after! This group uses words like "love" when they have no idea that love includes respect for diversity. Very young people like the idea of everyone being the same because they are afraid of or have never encountered difference. The older, true psychopath, like the Austrian Freedom Party or International Socialist sees megastates and eventual world government as the way to ensure that everyone is crushed under their favoured system of government without hope of help from outside.
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    A country that builds walls and not bridges is doomed, that's why countries like North Korea have failed so badly. It's tremendously hypocritical that so many people in our country criticise what Donald Trump wants to do in building a wall between the USA and Mexico when that's exactly what those same people want to do between us and the EU. They can see it's the wrong thing to do in someone else's context on a moral ground but not in their own context because they are blinded by patriotism, chauvinism and quite frankly zealotry. The more trade and political bridges between countries the stronger they will each become, leaving the EU would build walls: financially, politically and mentally.
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Thats fine... do you think the UK people will throw a backlash and remove uber right wing anti-union Boris Johnson if he doesnt ensure them?

    And yano, vote for somebody who does ensure them?
    Not while labour have Corbyn.
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    - Intergovernmental action on tax evasion and climate change
    - protection of fundamental workers' rights such as paid annual leave and health and safety regulations in the workplace
    - vote leave is a reactionary, xenophobic campaign that argues that many immigrants are criminals and rapists that come over in their millions to 'steal our jobs'.
    - 2,2 million UK nationals live abroad in EU countries compared to the 1.9 million EU citizens who live in Britain
    - the idea that Turkish criminals will now migrate to the UK and then damage our society is wrong, it taps into fears against immigrants and is completely wrong as the UK would veto any decision to admit Turkey into the EU.
    - Cuts by national governments on our institutions is much more of a threat than EU intervention. Jeremy Hunt is waging war on junior doctors and Whttingdale is clearly in favour of damaging the BBC and with it our core British values. If anything threatens our own 'British' values it comes from the government and austerity which is now being fought against across the EU, especially in Spain with the newly formed 'podemos' party which is so anti austere. In the EU, these movements will continue to spread and bring about change within society and its structure.
    - the effect of leaving on our economy would be devastating in comparison with if we were to stay in an EU where we can continue to reform the EU rather than having to adhere to their rules without having a say in their formation, as Norway continues to have to do gain access to the single market.

    There are many more reasons to stay in, however I do agree that perhaps people are not aware of 'remain's' principle arguments, partly, I feel, because there are so many reasons to stay that finding one main point is difficult.
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    (Original post by JoeyTr)
    A country that builds walls and not bridges is doomed, ....
    Yes, but what has this got to do with Brexit? After Brexit the UK would undoubtedly join EFTA and seek to expand it. It would still be a member of NATO and the WEU. It would get back its seat at the UN, which is currently controlled to vote with EU policy.

    Lets translate what you really meant: if you don't Remain you are doomed, doomed I tells you!
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    (Original post by Marcuspdown)
    ....
    Do you really want to give up self government? The Eurozone is fully on course to complete Stage 1 of EMU union by 2017. Stage 1 means that the Council of the Eurogroup approves draft Budgets from the member states, that the banks in the Eurozone are part of a banking union and a host of other financial union measures.

    What is not generally understood in the UK is that the Eurozone embarks on Stage 2 in 2017
    (EU referendum in 2016 - get it?). Stage 2 is scheduled to be completed by 2025 and entails full political union. The Eurozone will become a single, united country with member states as regions.

    The Eurogroup currently acts as a single body on financial matters, meeting before finance meetings of the European Council to agree joint policy. After full union the Eurozone will speak with a single voice in the EU Council on all issues. The dominance of the Eurozone is already a problem, speaking with a single voice on economic concerns, after full political union the Eurozone will be fully dominant.

    All the other arguments pale into insignificance compared with relinquishing self government. If the EU swings far right, something that hasn't happened in the UK but has occurred in almost all the rest of the EU at times, we will just have to lump it. If they repeal all the Regulations that you love so dearly, you will just have to put up with it.
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    1. Almost abolished roaming charges within the EU
    2. Access to the European Single Market (For which otherwise UK would have to pay high fees).
    3. UK within the EU has a say on continental cases. When out, it would have not. (only ignorants or hard UKIP supporters would say that it's not important).
    4. Just because the UK and Eire are not part of the Schengen area, it doesn't mean they can't travel Europe without having to wait on borders, while being out means more borders (once more, only people thinking that they would never travel to different places than neighbouring shire are in the minority, I guess).
    5. Just because MEPs are sometimes ridiculous, it doesn't mean that the whole EU is bad… Also, MEPs are chosen by people, so come on, don't say that Europe is bad, go and change it. The easiest way is to vote in the European Parliament's elections.
    6. OK, the UK pays for membership a high price, but a) if not for Thatcher, it would pay more , and b)it still has many "membership includes…" benefits, so anti-EU'ers are just morons.
    7. Quote 1: "If you want to go to Bulgaria for 98p per hour be my guest, or even £2.60 in Greece or Portugal." REALLY? Now I'm really confused. Let's put down the facts:
    I. Britain does not want to pay for membership
    II. The EU supports poorer countries with money from the common budget, based on the MEMBERSHIP FEES
    III. The anti-EU'ers say that "if you want your EU, move to XYZ (and XYZ is a poor country).
    C'mon people! The aim is to make the poor countries wealthier and to boost their economies, so Britain not willing to pay fees and making fun of such poor places is just an *******.
    Note: by Britain I mean British people
    8.Quote 2: "1) protectionism and very heavy regulations are not good for economies, especially in such a globalised world." LOL? Regulations are good if you have a common market. If there are too many resources of one kind, that resource is getting cheaper. I guess it's good for ancaps, but not for economy.
    9.Quote 3: "2) leaving the EU is not the same as closing the borders. Selecting which workers are let in based on needs is not the same as not letting anybody in. These people don't necessarily come here because we are in the EU, they come here because we have the jobs and they have the skills, why else do so many come from outside the EU?"
    On the one hand, yes, but on the other… I mean, travelling to the UK was always hard (as UK is not part of Schengen), but the other way… I don't believe that British don't travel to Spain, France etc… It would be harder for them if Britain got out of the EU, and here once more capitalist point of view: yeah, it would be somehow better for the British economy. All money stays in the UK, BUT: having to pay fees for access to the common market… I mean, such fees are higher than the possible income from people earlier travelling to continental Europe.
    10. There is always uncertainty, whether Britain STAYS IN or chooses VOTE OUT. But please, the British Empire is almost dead (USA is lost, Canada only formally has British monarch as queen, same with Australia and New Zealand). These are not the best times to be "proud to be independent British" and "We'll make Britain great again".
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Yes, but what has this got to do with Brexit? After Brexit the UK would undoubtedly join EFTA and seek to expand it.
    But that is what we have right now. And right now we have a say in its future. After we leave we have no say. Any rules created by the EU would be imposed on us whether we like it or not. This is what I don't understand about the economic argument of Brexit. We gain nothing by leaving. Gain out independence and lose our influence. You don't get to choose the music if you ain't at the party.
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    Frankly I think it's the leavers who should have to explain their case, since they're the ones proposing we make a major change with political and economic consequences we can't foresee, however:

    -Based on your avatar I bet it's quite likely you don't believe in anthropocentric climate change, however for those of us who recognize the science, being part of a much bigger community makes it easier minimize the effects of it than trying to do it on our own.

    -It's much easier to negotiate a trade deal with other countries when we represent about 450 million people than when we represent just 60 million.

    -Adding to the above point, if a country is being a **** to it's citizens, we can have a better chance of convincing their government to stop.

    -It's easier for scientists to cooperate with their counterparts on the continent.
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    I'm going to vote Remain because it is my democratic right to do so.
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    (Original post by Marcuspdown)
    - Intergovernmental action on tax evasion and climate change
    - protection of fundamental workers' rights such as paid annual leave and health and safety regulations in the workplace
    - vote leave is a reactionary, xenophobic campaign that argues that many immigrants are criminals and rapists that come over in their millions to 'steal our jobs'.
    - 2,2 million UK nationals live abroad in EU countries compared to the 1.9 million EU citizens who live in Britain
    - the idea that Turkish criminals will now migrate to the UK and then damage our society is wrong, it taps into fears against immigrants and is completely wrong as the UK would veto any decision to admit Turkey into the EU.
    - Cuts by national governments on our institutions is much more of a threat than EU intervention. Jeremy Hunt is waging war on junior doctors and Whttingdale is clearly in favour of damaging the BBC and with it our core British values. If anything threatens our own 'British' values it comes from the government and austerity which is now being fought against across the EU, especially in Spain with the newly formed 'podemos' party which is so anti austere. In the EU, these movements will continue to spread and bring about change within society and its structure.
    - the effect of leaving on our economy would be devastating in comparison with if we were to stay in an EU where we can continue to reform the EU rather than having to adhere to their rules without having a say in their formation, as Norway continues to have to do gain access to the single market.

    There are many more reasons to stay in, however I do agree that perhaps people are not aware of 'remain's' principle arguments, partly, I feel, because there are so many reasons to stay that finding one main point is difficult.
    TL;DR: I bought into project fear and will regurgitate it

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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    I'm going to vote Remain because it is my democratic right to do so.
    As is not voting, spoiling your ballot in a million different ways, and voting to leave. You can't do all four at the same time and they are all equally within your democratic rights, meaning there is a reason why you chose that above the other three options

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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    But that is what we have right now. And right now we have a say in its future. After we leave we have no say. Any rules created by the EU would be imposed on us whether we like it or not. This is what I don't understand about the economic argument of Brexit. We gain nothing by leaving. Gain out independence and lose our influence. You don't get to choose the music if you ain't at the party.
    Do you really think the UK will have any say in the EU once the Eurogroup completes Stage 2 of political union in 2025? We will have less say in the EU than Norway!
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    As is not voting, spoiling your ballot in a million different ways, and voting to leave. You can't do all four at the same time and they are all equally within your democratic rights, meaning there is a reason why you chose that above the other three options

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    Yes, there is.
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    (Original post by offhegoes)
    I'm going to vote Remain because it is my democratic right to do so.
    After Eurogroup Political Union in 2025 and when the Austrians, Croatians, Slovenians, Lithuanians, French, Germans etc. swing to the far right and convince the Eurogroup that this is the way to go you will reap the rewards of your vote. With only 8.5% of the numerical vote and Qualified Majority Voting the UK will be irrelevant.
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    (Original post by ByEeek)
    But that is what we have right now. And right now we have a say in its future. After we leave we have no say. Any rules created by the EU would be imposed on us whether we like it or not. This is what I don't understand about the economic argument of Brexit. We gain nothing by leaving. Gain out independence and lose our influence. You don't get to choose the music if you ain't at the party.
    Right now we do have a say but you know as well as I that Eurogroup Union enters Stage 2 next year. (Yes! Against all expectations they have achieved Stage 1 and now even elect a president of the Eurogroup). By 2025 the Eurogroup will have achieved political union and the UK will be entirely marginalised in the EU, just rubber stamping Eurogroup decisions.

    If we Remain we will have little say in our own future, let alone the future of the EU. If we join the Eurogroup we will have 8.5% of the vote and a tiny say in our own future. If we leave we will have 100% of the vote on our future.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Do you really think the UK will have any say in the EU once the Eurogroup completes Stage 2 of political union in 2025? We will have less say in the EU than Norway!
    1. There is no certainty that Stage 2 of the political union will happen by 2025, just as there is no certainty that Turkey will be allowed to join. Even if it does happen, Britain already has an opt out. It matters not a jot to us whether we stay or leave.
    2. Even if it did happen, yes - we would certainly have more say over it as a member than as someone that simply buys access to the market like Norway. And why do you keep mentioning Norway. They have 5 million residents and a sovereign wealth fund so big the government could buy everyone in the country a Lamborghini and still have change over to host the Olympic Games.

    What the Leavers fail to acknowledge is the massive events that have shaken Europe in the last couple of years, namely the economic crisis that hit Greece and the current migration crisis, both of which have seen the political structure of Europe creak. We are seeing a rise of extreme right wing parties in all countries and with the terror threat rising and rising after Paris and Brussels. What may have been seen to be a certainty is now very much up for debate again. I don't believe stage 2 of the political union will happen any time soon. Nor do I believe Turkey will join in my lifetime and I certainly think TTIP will get a run for its money once a draft is published.

    Brexit talk as if these things are a done deals. They are not. However if we leave, we have no say in them whatsoever. At present we have a say and a veto in some cases.
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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    If we Remain we will have little say in our own future, let alone the future of the EU. If we join the Eurogroup we will have 8.5% of the vote and a tiny say in our own future. If we leave we will have 100% of the vote on our future.
    Specifically? What can't we do now that we want to? I mean seriously - what specifically is Europe stopping us doing?

    And before you mention trade deals - didn't we just do a trade deal with the Chinese? They have certainly bought up at least half of Manchester this last year. There were no EU rules stopping that happening although sometimes I wish there were.
 
 
 
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