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TTIP- remain/undecided side please take note and read this Watch

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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    That's typically English. And sorry, but wanting authoritarian means for their ends marks out an authoritarian. That's an absolute.

    What is this nonsense about workers rights? The toires just announced the retirment age would go up to the mid 70's for younger people, TTIP will get pushed through by European governments regardless of being in the EU, France for example were the only major player to reject it, as an independent country they could outright-in the EU, if it gets forced by enough countries, you have to succumb. I'm sick of hearing pieces of 'fact' as though they are beyond question when they have no basis in reality, when Tory governments can still push through the worst of what they want within the EU, when the point is to campaign and vote for what you want within democracy. They have done this already and will do more. If we reclaim our democracy we can shape our future. The other truly depressing thing about the, democracy doesn't matter, Europe can save us from the worst argument, is that they will not give you anything you want as a leftist or progressive, there may be a few token things but they are there to support the same economics and globalisation.

    The scary, and depressing thing about remainers, especially of the left, and I am of the left, is that they believe in giving up on democracy to deliver anything, giving up on the long term prospects of that, and want authoritarianism to save them, so they can live in a helpless state with no control over their destiny, hoping there is some benevolent superstate authoritarianism that can look after them as opposed to the freer, self determining course. Think about what you are arguing and it's implications if we take that course, think about how it could become a self-fulfilling prophecy-

    Democracy is hopeless in our own country and can't deliver....if things went wrong in the short term, democracy would never be able give us what we wanted or redress anything long term. Democracy couldn't cause more democracy, more engagement, and then more chance to shape things long term. So you basically want to live under authoritarianism and unaccountability because it might be benevolent to you, more than freedom, just to hold you in your place.
    We won't ever get much say or the ability to overthrow anything, and democracy will weaken over time, people will become less engaged in the idea of freedom, just so long as it's being benevolent to us. Look at the history books, this is communist thinking, it's the thinking of people living under despots, it's desperately depressing, spirit crushing defeatism, and doesn't seem to have any awareness of our history, how countless visitors and immigrants said we had the freest and most unique way of life on earth. You are judging everything on very recent history, dejection and loss of empire, and short termism(I don't even agree on that basis though). Evne if Brexit wins and the future starts getting more and more democratic for the UK, I still worry that the country is full of people who think like this. It's bad fro democracy itself.
    Democracy is a means, not an ends. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner- there is nothing inherently just or wonderful about it.

    You may view democracy as the best way to achieving just ends but in and of itself it is not just.

    If 51% of people voted to execute all homosexuals would that be a good thing just because it's democratic?

    Would you rather be fed in an autocracy or starve to death in a democracy?

    You're far too idealistic. I don care about abstract concepts. I care about real working conditions and stable economy.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    You're far too idealistic. I don care about abstract concepts. I care about real working conditions and stable economy.
    Literally animal tier

    even the ancient greeks worked this out

    let us know when you evolve into zoon politikon
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    (Original post by EuanF)
    Literally animal tier

    even the ancient greeks worked this out

    let us know when you evolve into zoon politikon
    Left wingers voting for Brexit are Turkeys voting for Christmas.

    There's an unholy alliance between the far right and far left here.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Left wingers voting for Brexit are Turkeys voting for Christmas.

    There's an unholy alliance between the far right and far left here.
    "It is a battle in the course of which all other political lines and links will continue to be overrun and broken as it surges one way or the other. It is a battle in which the bitterest of foes of the past will stand together... the fight is about the continued existence of a nation itself, an issue which by definition all other political causes and issues whatsoever must be subordinate as to the greater which subsumes the less. In wartime, conservatives and socialists... sank their past differences and postponed their future divergent ambitions to fight together for the survival of the political nation itself - it is so, again."
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Why do people keep making this argument and similar? We could have our own democracy, make our voice heard and boot out governments that did such things. It's just so incredibly defeatist, to give in to the globalists. As for all the people who think UK is nothing compared to the EU and America, the EU is sinking and America is a mess, they will be both be utterly screwed by climate change....the UK is in a unique position to reclaim greatness. Unique.
    Ignore JordanL_, he said he was perfectly happy living under an undemocratic government; he likes being told what to do, because he doesn't like to have independent thoughts of his own, it frightens him.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Democracy is a means, not an ends. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner- there is nothing inherently just or wonderful about it.

    You may view democracy as the best way to achieving just ends but in and of itself it is not just.

    If 51% of people voted to execute all homosexuals would that be a good thing just because it's democratic?

    Would you rather be fed in an autocracy or starve to death in a democracy?

    You're far too idealistic. I don care about abstract concepts. I care about real working conditions and stable economy.
    Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.

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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Ignore JordanL_, he said he was perfectly happy living under an undemocratic government; he likes being told what to do, because he doesn't like to have independent thoughts of his own, it frightens him.
    Right. Because the EU, where the UK makes up 10% of the vote (we have the third most MEPs in the union), is less democratic than... the UK, where we live in a monarchy and all of our laws need to be approved by an unelected House of Lords.

    If you're really that bothered about democracy, maybe focus on reform in the UK first, because you aren't living in one.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Why do people keep making this argument and similar? We could have our own democracy, make our voice heard and boot out governments that did such things. It's just so incredibly defeatist, to give in to the globalists. As for all the people who think UK is nothing compared to the EU and America, the EU is sinking and America is a mess, they will be both be utterly screwed by climate change....the UK is in a unique position to reclaim greatness. Unique.
    How is that defeatist? The EU has always made legislation protecting my interests, while our government has been ****ing me over since I was born. I'd gladly vote to be ruled by the EU over whatever ***** the British electorate bring in next. That's not defeatist, that's me making my voice heard and voting for a government that has an outstanding record, rather than one that's trying to sell our public services and strip away my rights for some ££££
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Right. Because the EU, where the UK makes up 10% of the vote (we have the third most MEPs in the union), is less democratic than... the UK, where we live in a monarchy and all of our laws need to be approved by an unelected House of Lords.

    If you're really that bothered about democracy, maybe focus on reform in the UK first, because you aren't living in one.
    Shows how little you know on the matter. Take a look at the Parliament Acts 1911 and 1949, do the laws have to be approved by the laws? Funnily enough, no. And funnily enough in the UK our elected officials aren't just rubber stampers.

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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Right. Because the EU, where the UK makes up 10% of the vote (we have the third most MEPs in the union), is less democratic than... the UK, where we live in a monarchy and all of our laws need to be approved by an unelected House of Lords.

    If you're really that bothered about democracy, maybe focus on reform in the UK first, because you aren't living in one.
    :facepalm:
    The UK has 73 representatives
    We should make up more than 10% (9.72%), because we constitute 12.74% of the EU population.
    That means each one of our representatives has more people allocated to them than many other countries.
    So rightfully so if we have the third most MEPs, but we should have even more, by your statistics.
    (Just remember our MEPs can't propose, amend or repeal legislation. They have no legislative initiative.)

    I'm pretty sure royal assent by the monarchy is more of a formality in this country.

    Our unelected House of Lords can only delay legislation for up to a year, and can't even delay legislation regarding budget and finance.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Right. Because the EU, where the UK makes up 10% of the vote (we have the third most MEPs in the union), is less democratic than... the UK, where we live in a monarchy and all of our laws need to be approved by an unelected House of Lords.

    If you're really that bothered about democracy, maybe focus on reform in the UK first, because you aren't living in one.
    Cannot improve the UK whilst we're in the EU. If you want greater democracy, you want to leave.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Democracy is a means, not an ends. Democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner- there is nothing inherently just or wonderful about it.

    You may view democracy as the best way to achieving just ends but in and of itself it is not just.

    If 51% of people voted to execute all homosexuals would that be a good thing just because it's democratic?

    Would you rather be fed in an autocracy or starve to death in a democracy?

    You're far too idealistic. I don care about abstract concepts. I care about real working conditions and stable economy.
    You can't give that example with homosexuals, of course it wouldn't be agood thing, but a)It is clearly nowhere near what we are discussing, or what happens in democracy, and
    b)Democracy has primacy.
    I'd rather have liberty and the feeling of freedom and a higher risk of death, yes absolutely.
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    (Original post by XcitingStuart)
    Ignore JordanL_, he said he was perfectly happy living under an undemocratic government; he likes being told what to do, because he doesn't like to have independent thoughts of his own, it frightens him.
    I know there's so many like this in remain, and frankly I find it worrying, anti-British and more than a little scary. Aren't they represent a declining into the worst of what happened in Europe, that we were anti-establishment and liberty loving enough to prevent? I can't help noticing the gulf between the two political traditions.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    How is that defeatist? The EU has always made legislation protecting my interests, while our government has been ****ing me over since I was born. I'd gladly vote to be ruled by the EU over whatever ***** the British electorate bring in next. That's not defeatist, that's me making my voice heard and voting for a government that has an outstanding record, rather than one that's trying to sell our public services and strip away my rights for some ££££
    OH my god, how many times do I have to try and shake you out of this naivete? TTIP, read the articles. France was the only nation that stood up against total subservience to this totally one sided deal which would give America and it's corporations vast, unchecked power in Europe with Europe getting none of these benefits. It's a virtual enthusiastic embrace offered by them to serfdom, the EU is full of helpless, biddable nations like that, look at Sweden with Julian Assange. Why do you think the EU is this protector of British interests, it can do nothing.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    OH my god, how many times do I have to try and shake you out of this naivete? TTIP, read the articles. France was the only nation that stood up against total subservience to this totally one sided deal which would give America and it's corporations vast, unchecked power in Europe with Europe getting none of these benefits. It's a virtual enthusiastic embrace offered by them to serfdom, the EU is full of helpless, biddable nations like that, look at Sweden with Julian Assange. Why do you think the EU is this protector of British interests, it can do nothing.
    France was the only country that resisted, but you some how believe thst if we left the EU we wouldnt be joining TTIP?
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    France was the only country that resisted, but you some how believe thst if we left the EU we wouldnt be joining TTIP?
    It's not the point. It's about democracy and the future, we could make sure if we card enough they didn't get away with these things. In the EU we have no choice, and longer term the USA is waning massively.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Left wingers voting for Brexit are Turkeys voting for Christmas.

    There's an unholy alliance between the far right and far left here.
    Total and utter *******s. You have no concept of the worth of long term sovereignty, do you? You can only frame it in terms of 'left' and 'right'.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    Total and utter *******s. You have no concept of the worth of long term sovereignty, do you? You can only frame it in terms of 'left' and 'right'.
    You'll grow up one day and be pragmatic. Abstract concepts like sovereignty are meaningless. It's far better to have real, tangible ends like worker protections than abstract concepts.

    Besides any trade deal we sign, will involve giving up sovereignty.
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    You can't give that example with homosexuals, of course it wouldn't be agood thing, but a)It is clearly nowhere near what we are discussing, or what happens in democracy, and
    b)Democracy has primacy.
    I'd rather have liberty and the feeling of freedom and a higher risk of death, yes absolutely.
    You're opinion seems to be that democracy is always best no matter what the outcome. I firmly disagree.

    Democracy is not always better than autocracy. Would you rather starve to death in a democracy or be well fed in an autocracy?

    If a democracy decides to persecute no tootsies is that better than an autocracy that doesn't? If a democracy means the Tories shred workers rights, is that better than a less democratic system that protects them?

    You are far, far too idealistic.
 
 
 
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