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    (Original post by Gaya Ramanathan)
    I completely agree. The poor don't eat at all sometimes in 24 hours, don't have shelter, warmth. I think it's belittling and patronising the people facing this issue for real rather than doing anything else. Sorry if you want to fast, fine but don't act as if that lets you know what it's like for poor people.
    But most of us aren't poor and needy so we will never know what's it's like. It's not a 100% attempt to experience what hunger and thirst feels and it's never the primary objective. But at the end of the day we are grateful for all the blessings of God that he have bestowed on us, and we know if it weren't for Him we would all be hungry and thirsty. If we never break our fast, then we wouldn't have the energy to be grateful and if we aren't grateful we would never be charitable and if we aren't charitable the earth would be filled with the hungry and the thirsty.

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    Muslim patient who is fasting presents to A&E with a low circulating volume and low blood pressure of 95/65. Patient is visibly exhausted and doctors are scared that the patient could go into a coma due to the hypotension.

    Doctors go to fetch a drip, but the patient refuses on religious grounds saying that it is a violation of his religious rights and breaks his fast. The patient's blood pressure begins to fall and doctors are unsure whether the exhaustion, hunger and thirst have compromised the patient's capacity. If they leave it untreated the patient could fall below cerebral auto regulation range and into a coma.

    What do the doctors do? (Completely hypothetical and involves no real patients, I'm just interested to see what people think about this particular ethical dilemma! )
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    (Original post by Gaya Ramanathan)
    I completely agree. The poor don't eat at all sometimes in 24 hours, don't have shelter, warmth. I think it's belittling and patronising the people facing this issue for real rather than doing anything else. Sorry if you want to fast, fine but don't act as if that lets you know what it's like for poor people.
    The aim isn't to live like the less fortunate, it's to be grateful for what we have by experiencing the hunger felt them. For any situation 'putting yourself in one's shoes' does not mean experiencing everything they go through or living exactly like them because you never really can. Even if you just think about or empathise with others , that's something. It's the same thing with raising awareness about illnesses or wars, the aim is to better understand and empathise with people so that we can help them. Just because we will never truly understand them does not mean we should do nothing. Also, It is not the only purpose of fasting.
    Besides, fasting isn't the only way muslims empathise with the poor. One of the pillars of islam is to regularly give parts of our income to charity, amongst other acts of benevolence. We aren't really supposed to tell other people about these acts though if we are truly doing it out of kindness and obedience to God.

    Keep in mind that there are things in Islam that we muslims don't even fully understand. We just truly believe in God and try to serve him obediently --every creation is marked with his existence and without him we are nothing, well we wouldn't exist haha. That is the beauty of faith.
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    (Original post by SeanFM)
    Ah, I understand a bit more now. That is quite insightful especially a bit about the utmost faith.

    Thanks
    No worries, I'm glad that helped!
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    (Original post by Zygomaticus)
    Muslim patient who is fasting presents to A&E with a low circulating volume and low blood pressure of 95/65. Patient is visibly exhausted and doctors are scared that the patient could go into a coma due to the hypotension.

    Doctors go to fetch a drip, but the patient refuses on religious grounds saying that it is a violation of his religious rights and breaks his fast. The patient's blood pressure begins to fall and doctors are unsure whether the exhaustion, hunger and thirst have compromised the patient's capacity. If they leave it untreated the patient could fall below cerebral auto regulation range and into a coma.

    What do the doctors do? (Completely hypothetical and involves no real patients, I'm just interested to see what people think about this particular ethical dilemma! )
    The doctors force feed him. It is haram in Islam to cause your body to bear more than it can bear, and it is not compulsory for the ill to fast or to continue the fast. It is encouraged in Islam to try and stop a person doing haram with your hands or your words.

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    (Original post by Gaya Ramanathan)
    I completely agree. The poor don't eat at all sometimes in 24 hours, don't have shelter, warmth. I think it's belittling and patronising the people facing this issue for real rather than doing anything else. Sorry if you want to fast, fine but don't act as if that lets you know what it's like for poor people.
    Lol you can't be serious. Yeah you're actually right, when we break our fast with a full plate of food we say, "Pffft... these poor people are so weak. Living without food is sooo easy! Alright, now I don't need to give charity anymore."

    And why do you say "rather than doing anything else"? Don't you think it makes more sense for a person to feel hungry, realise the poor have it way worse and then feel even more compelled to give charity? You're certainly being belittling and patronising towards us.

    Btw, "feeling the way the poor feel" isn't the fundamental objective of fasting. It's more of a side.
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    (Original post by pinkrox22310)
    Fasting is done to experience how people in LEDC survive without going days or weeks without food (even though we do it for 18 hours) its to put ourselves in their shoes and be more grateful for what we have. Honestly it is a blessing because you realise how lucky you really are at the end of the day when you have food to eat after those hours of fasting you remember those children and adults who dont.
    ....
    Not necessarily that. That is not the main purpose. It's more than just 'experience how people in LEDC survive without going days or weeks without food'.

    You can check this on the video below on the site:

    http://onepathnetwork.com/why-do-muslims-fast/
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    (Original post by Sciatic)
    The doctors force feed him. It is haram in Islam to cause your body to bear more than it can bear, and it is not compulsory for the ill to fast or to continue the fast. It is encouraged in Islam to try and stop a person doing haram with your hands or your words.

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    Ahhh but think from a clinicians point of view, treating a Gllick Fraser competent patient is battery if they've explicitly stated their refusal to treatment. The doctor could be criminally convicted. A patient above the age of 18 who is Gillick Fraser competent can consent or refuse treatment and it must be respected.

    With this knowledge you now have and based off your prior fasting experiences and how fasting could affect capacity, what do you think the doctors should do? Should they assume capacity and respect the patient's decision?
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    (Original post by Gaya Ramanathan)
    I completely agree. The poor don't eat at all sometimes in 24 hours, don't have shelter, warmth. I think it's belittling and patronising the people facing this issue for real rather than doing anything else. Sorry if you want to fast, fine but don't act as if that lets you know what it's like for poor people.
    :facepalm:Good thing it's Ramadan. Exercising self control at the moment with that comment.
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    (Original post by Zygomaticus)
    Ahhh but think from a clinicians point of view, treating a Gllick Fraser competent patient is battery if they've explicitly stated their refusal to treatment. The doctor could be criminally convicted. A patient above the age of 18 who is Gillick Fraser competent can consent or refuse treatment and it must be respected.

    With this knowledge you now have and based off your prior fasting experiences and how fasting could affect capacity, what do you think the doctors should do? Should they assume capacity and respect the patient's decision?
    Then yes.

    But according to Islamic law it won't be a sin or a crime to force-feed the patient in this case.

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    (Original post by Zygomaticus)
    Ahhh but think from a clinicians point of view, treating a Gllick Fraser competent patient is battery if they've explicitly stated their refusal to treatment. The doctor could be criminally convicted. A patient above the age of 18 who is Gillick Fraser competent can consent or refuse treatment and it must be respected.

    With this knowledge you now have and based off your prior fasting experiences and how fasting could affect capacity, what do you think the doctors should do? Should they assume capacity and respect the patient's decision?
    Well if the patient is that ill you could test if her had capacity ie if he can remember and understand information given to him. If he fails this test then he can be treated in his best interest under the medical ethical principles of beneficence and non maleficience. If not we would have to respect thei autonomy and find another way to raise their falling blood pressure whilst we convince him of needing to break their fast. This patient also is misinformed about how he can break his fast as his body needs him to so you could get in touch with the local imam
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I think it would be better if you just ate frugally during Ramadan, because not eating during the day and stuffing yourself with samosas as soon as it's dark is meaningless in regards to starvation in the world.

    Muslims don't eat less during Ramadan, they just concentrate all their daily food intake on a short time by eating extremely rich meals.

    Moreover, I don't understand why you're not even allowed to drink.
    An average person eats 3 meals a day along with snacks especially if your a teenager like the majority here. The aim is to get a glimpse of how the less fortunates feel upon hunger and thirst not to die.

    Now not me but a lot of my friends (cuz they don't wanna wake at like 2am) eat 1 proper meal a day and then sleep for 30 days. tell me how is that the same as the "average person". Even me I eat like some fruit and some light snacks like 1 or 2 samosas to open my fast, then an hour later have a normal meal like a plate of pasta (this was my meal yesterday). Then night I have what I'd usually have for breakfast.
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    (Original post by Zygomaticus)
    Muslim patient who is fasting presents to A&E with a low circulating volume and low blood pressure of 95/65. Patient is visibly exhausted and doctors are scared that the patient could go into a coma due to the hypotension.

    Doctors go to fetch a drip, but the patient refuses on religious grounds saying that it is a violation of his religious rights and breaks his fast. The patient's blood pressure begins to fall and doctors are unsure whether the exhaustion, hunger and thirst have compromised the patient's capacity. If they leave it untreated the patient could fall below cerebral auto regulation range and into a coma.

    What do the doctors do? (Completely hypothetical and involves no real patients, I'm just interested to see what people think about this particular ethical dilemma! )
    hypothetically in your scenario the persons allowed to break his fast if they can't do it due to medical reasons as it says in the quran. PROBLEM SOLVED
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    (Original post by Josb)
    I think it would be better if you just ate frugally during Ramadan, because not eating during the day and stuffing yourself with samosas as soon as it's dark is meaningless in regards to starvation in the world.

    Muslims don't eat less during Ramadan, they just concentrate all their daily food intake on a short time by eating extremely rich meals.

    Moreover, I don't understand why you're not even allowed to drink.
    It is meaningless and one shouldn't do it. Gluttony is bad and sometimes sinful in Islam.
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    (Original post by pinkrox22310)
    Fasting is done to experience how people in LEDC survive without going days or weeks without food (even though we do it for 18 hours) its to put ourselves in their shoes and be more grateful for what we have. Honestly it is a blessing because you realise how lucky you really are at the end of the day when you have food to eat after those hours of fasting you remember those children and adults who dont.

    It also helps us gain Taqwa (God consciousness) It is that time of the month where Allah (God) forgives our sins and even if we turn away from him all 11 months but practice during this time he is the most forgiving. We are able to connect with Allah and refrain from many things which break our fast so we can focus on our religion. It helps us gain that connecting with God.

    As a Muslim I would say I gain a lot during this month. It helps me realise how grateful I am to be living the life I am living and honestly I'm not the most religious person but this month is so peaceful and so pure that it allows me to realise how truly Thankful I am. Basically making me feel content and closer to my religion.
    But surely this just breeds people who decide to be bad for a whole year and have it all forgiven during Ramadan. I don't disagree with the fast because as a Christian, I fast as well, however I'm just conscious that it can be abused by people who have their own agendas. Also, what happens if someone dies before they are able to see Ramadan again and have their sins forgiven? Are they surely going to Hell?
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    (Original post by Jordan_Gene)
    But surely this just breeds people who decide to be bad for a whole year and have it all forgiven during Ramadan. I don't disagree with the fast because as a Christian, I fast as well, however I'm just conscious that it can be abused by people who have their own agendas. Also, what happens if someone dies before they are able to see Ramadan again and have their sins forgiven? Are they surely going to Hell?
    All this hype about Ramadan would make you think that it is central to a Muslim's salvation but it is not. It is a duty one owes to one's self (ultimately to God), just like salaah (ritual prayer) is - but it is not the work we do to somehow work our way to salvation. Sins are forgiven by the act of tawbah (repentance) and it does not necessitate ibadah or worship/work. We cannot work ourselves to salvation, and that is not the purpose of worship in any of its forms, but work is necessitated by faith and it is through faith and the Mercy of God that we are forgiven and granted eternal salvation.

    Fasting helps to instil/maintain Taqwa (God-consciousness) in our souls, and this would lead us to the proper relationship we should have with God. If God wills He could forgive our sins through or without it but even if we had no sin upon us we wouldn't be saved except if we also have the special Mercy of God bestowed upon us. If we didn't fast, it's a major sin but it is not kufr/shirk or a sin that if we do not repent of, eternal salvation would be forbidden for us. In short Ramadan is not the key to salvation/forgiveness - but one of the means. In the question of salvation it is generally taken to be irrelevant, but in the question of rank and position in the eyes of God it is significant.

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    (Original post by Zygomaticus)
    Muslim patient who is fasting presents to A&E with a low circulating volume and low blood pressure of 95/65. Patient is visibly exhausted and doctors are scared that the patient could go into a coma due to the hypotension.

    Doctors go to fetch a drip, but the patient refuses on religious grounds saying that it is a violation of his religious rights and breaks his fast. The patient's blood pressure begins to fall and doctors are unsure whether the exhaustion, hunger and thirst have compromised the patient's capacity. If they leave it untreated the patient could fall below cerebral auto regulation range and into a coma.

    What do the doctors do? (Completely hypothetical and involves no real patients, I'm just interested to see what people think about this particular ethical dilemma! )
    if a Muslim patient is in so much danger that they are about to go in to a coma then they are allowed to break their fast. You should keep your fasts but if its LIFE THREATENING and you're at the point where you will probably go in to a coma then of course you should take that medication help that you are getting!
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    (Original post by alkaline.)
    "think about the unfortunates" are you kidding?? I'm barely hanging on to my will to live let alone be in deep thought about the unfortunates.

    I think more about the unfortunate in a normal day-to-day situation.

    I think the purpose of fasting is more about patience, and developing gratitude etc and to wash away sins. People will be "more of a muslim" than they are the rest of year because of how the rewards are multiplied, Allah made it a holy month.


    looool okay ??? i'd strongly beg to differ.

    same :/ freaking 18 1/2 hr fast fml I actually have stomach pains
    I understand what you're saying but the purpose of fasting is not because you know your reward is multiplied, You're right about gratitude and patient therefore you should just be patient and think of the less fortunate as this is their everyday life struggle and your 18 hour struggle.
    If you're fasting and you just do it for the reason of your rewards being multiplied then personally I feel as if thats not right. You shouldn't be doing it if you're just thinking about the rewards

    Correct me if I'm wrong
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    (Original post by Gaya Ramanathan)
    I completely agree. The poor don't eat at all sometimes in 24 hours, don't have shelter, warmth. I think it's belittling and patronising the people facing this issue for real rather than doing anything else. Sorry if you want to fast, fine but don't act as if that lets you know what it's like for poor people.
    Okay I understand but it does make you look at your blessings in another perspective the hunger makes me feel grateful because I know the poor feel like this 24 hours a day whereas I get a good meal at the end of my 18 hours. Its all about making yourself feel Thankful and God consciousness
    You're right I don't know how its like for the poor I am lucky enough to eat at the end of the day, have an education, sleep in a warm house and a good bed have my family with me but fasting is what makes me grateful for those things.

    I'm not acting as if I know what its like for poor people. no way.
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    I am surprised that people are actually against fasting... I find it so lovely that people actually do it (considering the purpose of it) and I know for a fact I would struggle doing it so all respect to those fasting particularly during exams!
 
 
 
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