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Decided to leave Islam after Orlando attack. AMA. Watch

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    (Original post by Sara_t)
    In Islam, there very much is such thing as 'out of context'. Allah himself, in the Quran, says:
    'And he misguides with it (the Quran) many and guides with it many' [surah Baqrah verse 27-28].
    'And had your Lord willed, those on earth would have believed, all of them together. So will you (Muhammad) then, compel mankind? Until they become believers? [Yoonus 10:99]

    In islam, seeking knowledge is compulsory for every human being. It's vital that to properly understand the text, you have studied the arabic language and the context in which the surahs were revealed.

    Allah repeated makes it very clear throughout the quran that no one can be forced to become a Muslim or follow Islamic rules. Muhammad (pbuh) is reminded throughout that his role is only to spread the message. Not dictate how someone must live their life. That is upto the individual.
    There is one passage that is used repeatedly by Islamophobes: 'and kill them where you find them...' out of context to justify their incorrect view that Islam belives anyone who isn't a believer must be killed (which in itself goes against the many ayahs in the quran that oppose this). I won't go into detail on the issues you mentioned because i'll end up writing an essay. But i'll leave a link that mentions some of the points I would've made

    discover-the-truth.com/2014/08/12/quran-2191-and-kill-them-wherever-you-find-them-explained/
    Allah saying there is no compulsion in Islam is like Hitler saying "Look, you don't have to be a Nazi, but if you don't give us money and do as we say we'll crucify you."

    I know there is such a thing as context in Quran, but if Allah was the tiniest bit of intelligent, he would have been a bit more careful with the way he worded things. For example, he says to crucify those who wage war against God and "yas'oon fel ard fasadan",i.e. spread corruption in the land, which is SO VAGUE it encompass anyone, it could encompass people from American army soldiers to ISIS people. A smart God isn't supposed to be that vague, specially if he knows his Quran is supposed to be a book of law. Have a look at any decent constitution and compare it to the Quran, you'll see how vague the Quran is.

    Look, I believe that the Quran isn't as violent as people generally believe it to be, it certainly does not say "Go and kill non-Muslims", but it's vague enough to be interpreted in such way by maniacs. The fact that "God" was not careful with his wording and did not foresee people misinterpreting his word, show's you how great he is really.

    Plus, what kind of God asks his followers to crucify people?
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    (Original post by macsalaama)
    He had doubts before and the attack confirmed his disbelief. That's more than enough.

    Say, why are some muslims so adamant that ex-muslims have a "valid" reason for not believing?
    Would you demand the same from new converts who know nothing but the 5 pillars?



    Totally out of context and misquoted.

    "Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land - it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one - it is as if he had saved mankind entirely. And our messengers had certainly come to them with clear proofs. Then indeed many of them, [even] after that, throughout the land, were transgressors" (5:32)

    "Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment, "(5:33)

    http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...=786&Itemid=60

    More extreme translations and interpretations actually state verse 5:32 only applies to the killing of a believer.




    It doesn't change the fact that Islam doesn't accept homosexuality and the punishment for "acting on homosexual urges" is death.

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    Perfect example of someone who hasn't studied Islam and the quran in depth and has most probably searched for these passages on google and has made up their mind based off of that. All of what you have quoted was revealed to the prophet at a particular point in time in regards to a particular situation that was going on. This is made more obvious the rest of the quran very much focuses on forgiveness and mercy. Not compulsion and hatred. Go and do a little more research next time instead of embarrassing yourself.
    • #5
    #5

    (Original post by BenC1997)
    You have a victim complex I'm afraid, 50 people are shot dead, and Muslims are the 'real' victims, the 'oppressed' people.
    49 people shot dead, and over 1 billion held accountable. Go figure.

    Not a single person on this forum is deserving of the disrespect and hatred they've received following the attack in Orlando. Is it really fair that Muslims thousands of miles away, who are so far removed from the attack, are called in to question simply because the perpetrator claimed to be Muslim?

    And for the record, the latter half of my original post was very generally speaking, and not about the event itself, but I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge the suffering of Muslims around the world when you can't even see it happening in front of you.
    • #5
    #5

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    maybe because your routine of life is ridiculous :eek:
    Different strokes for different folks.

    You may disagree with somebody over something, and you are absolutely entitled to do so, but it doesn't mean you have to put them down because of it.
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    Muhammad married a 6 year old and kept a harem. He was a warlord and routinely raped and murdered people. I really can't understand why Islam is called a religion of peace when it preaches such hatred and was founded on violence and fear.
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    (Original post by Sara_t)
    Perfect example of someone who hasn't studied Islam and the quran in depth and has most probably searched for these passages on google and has made up their mind based off of that. All of what you have quoted was revealed to the prophet at a particular point in time in regards to a particular situation that was going on. This is made more obvious the rest of the quran very much focuses on forgiveness and mercy. Not compulsion and hatred. Go and do a little more research next time instead of embarrassing yourself.
    No need to get so emotional, chill:holmes:

    I doubt anyone disagrees with you in that the Quran has some nice verses. But is it really that hard for you to comprehend the fact that violent verses are what spews violence?
    Verse 5:32 alone has a nice message mixed with a messed up one. "Killing one soul is like killing mankind" sure does have a nice ring to it but it's conditional. The "Unless for corruption done" is ambiguous and can mean anyone preaching against Islam, not just physical violence. But even if you disagree with that interpretation, the verse doesn't ban killing all together.



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    QUOTEhttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items...rrow-10x10.png=Anonymous;65834687]49 people shot dead, and over 1 billion held accountablehttp://cdncache-a.akamaihd.net/items...rrow-10x10.png. Go figure.

    Not a single person on this forum is deserving of the disrespect and hatred they've received following the attack in Orlando. Is it really fair that Muslims thousands of miles away, who are so far removed from the attack, are called in to question simply because the perpetrator claimed to be Muslim?

    And for the record, the latter half of my original post was very generally speaking, and not about the event itself, but I wouldn't expect you to acknowledge the suffering of Muslims around the world when you can't even see it happening in front of you.[/QUOTE]

    Islam was to blame. That's holding the ideology to account, not the people. Nice try though.
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    (Original post by YaliaV)
    Muhammad married a 6 year old and kept a harem. He was a warlord and routinely raped and murdered people. I really can't understand why Islam is called a religion of peace when it preaches such hatred and was founded on violence and fear.
    1000 years of brainwash can turn "Mein Kampf" into a children's bed-time story.
    Do you think Muslims are told about the crimes of Muhammed? Even if they are, they're told of his "war heroism", killing murderers and slaughtering unjust warriors.
    When I was young, we were taught of the heroism of Omar ibn El-Khattab, a man who asked for Muhammed's permission to behead a man just because he insulted Muhammed in his face, Muhammed did say no but still, ibn El-Khattab as looked upon as a hero by Sunnis.
    • #10
    #10

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Well the Quran wishes death on homosexuals.
    It doesn't literally mean death its another term used for dislike (not only Islam dislikes homosexuals other religions do as well e.g. Christians) anyway why change yourself because of someone else the Orlando Killer wasn't even Muslim because Islam they say if you kill one person it is like you have killed the whole of man kind and obviously because of this we can tell its quite serious what he done. Maybe you should put some thought into it ask some Friends and Family for help and support about this. There is much more to Islam than just what you see on TV. But at the end of the day its your choice but you need to remember that some people are not worth it so do not think too much about them any way he will be accounted for.
    By the way i believe it is fine to be Homosexual because i believe the old traditions and beliefs need to adapt to the new society.And also well done for coming out and voicing your opinion although your anonymous your not bottling it up.
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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    Allah saying there is no compulsion in Islam is like Hitler saying "Look, you don't have to be a Nazi, but if you don't give us money and do as we say we'll crucify you."

    I know there is such a thing as context in Quran, but if Allah was the tiniest bit of intelligent, he would have been a bit more careful with the way he worded things. For example, he says to crucify those who wage war against God and "yas'oon fel ard fasadan",i.e. spread corruption in the land, which is SO VAGUE it encompass anyone, it could encompass people from American army soldiers to ISIS people. A smart God isn't supposed to be that vague, specially if he knows his Quran is supposed to be a book of law. Have a look at any decent constitution and compare it to the Quran, you'll see how vague the Quran is.

    Look, I believe that the Quran isn't as violent as people generally believe it to be, it certainly does not say "Go and kill non-Muslims", but it's vague enough to be interpreted in such way by maniacs. The fact that "God" was not careful with his wording and did not foresee people misinterpreting his word, show's you how great he is really.

    Plus, what kind of God asks his followers to crucify people?
    Did you even read the link that I posted? Allah is actully very specific in his arabic wording and grammar. The problem comes when all of that is lost in a translation. Which is why, if you truly want to understand the quran, you MUST devote time to studying it in it's original state. Yes a translation will give you a surface idea on what is being said but a translation will always be someone else's interpretation.
    There are MANY verses in the quran that imply that no one should be forced to live an Islamic way of life:
    'And say (Muhammad): 'the truth is from your Lord'. Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve' [al-khaf 18:29]

    'There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path' [surah al-baqarah 2:256]

    'So if they dispute with you (Muhammad), say: 'I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me'. And say to the people of the scripture and the unlearned: 'do you also submit yourselves?' If they do, then they are on the right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the message' [surah al-Imran:20]

    In Islam we believe that every human being has been given free will by God. People must make their own choices, that's the whole point.
    How can anyone else overlook the countless times the concept of forgiveness and mercy is mentioned throughout the quran and focus on those FEW verses that are pushed out of context and deemed violent.
    • #11
    #11

    (Original post by Anonymous)
    Yes, I was never truly a believer of Allah or Islam... I didn't have the choice because of the family I was brought up in.
    Then the root cause of you leaving Islam is down to your non beliefs.

    Leaving because you don't want to be associated with psychopaths who hijack and tarnish the religion comes second.
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    (Original post by BenC1997)
    Whilst what you have experienced is regrettable, it is also nothing more than anecdotal evidence and thus should not be used in a debate such as this, it is not evidence of systematic oppression I'm afraid.

    I will not deny many people have negative views of Islam, but I would argue that many of these views are entirely justified, if they come from a position of intellectual research as opposed to bias and prejudice.
    'Intellectual research' lol
    • #10
    #10

    (Original post by mariah2011)
    Why? If one attack makes you leave Islam it just really goes to show how strong your belief in Islam was anyway. How does 1 person killing many innocent people affect your belief in Allah? The guy who did the shooting was in fact a muslim, but he was also gay himself. If he wasn't gay and killed the people because islam does not condemn people being gay (just like christianity) then maybe I can see possibly why you are feeling affected but he didn't kill the people because of Islam. If he did then why was he gay himself?
    Anyways, as usual the actions of a minority are being blamed on the majority and this is a sad fact really. You're leaving Islam after one guy killed many people. I don't understand how that affects your belief though?
    If you actually have studied islam you'd know islam doesn't condemn violence and is a peaceful religion. Islam is believing in allah and his prophet and I don't understand why you're leaving islam due to this.
    You clearly don't have enough knowledge of islam hence why you're leaving but juts because something happens and people label islam all over it, it doesn't mean its true.
    The terrorists who claim to be islamic aren't even islamic they don't know the definition of islam all they do know is how to add the word islam or allahuakbar to everything they do/say to make it look like its islam when in fact they aren't muslims themselves.
    When will people understand that adding the word islam or muslim to everything doesn't make that person a muslim....
    I totally agree with you.The way you said it was really simple to understand...
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    (Original post by macsalaama)
    No need to get so emotional, chill:holmes:

    I doubt anyone disagrees with you in that the Quran has some nice verses. But is it really that hard for you to comprehend the fact that violent verses are what spews violence?
    Verse 5:32 alone has a nice message mixed with a messed up one. "Killing one soul is like killing mankind" sure does have a nice ring to it but it's conditional. The "Unless for corruption done" is ambiguous and can mean anyone preaching against Islam, not just physical violence. But even if you disagree with that interpretation, the verse doesn't ban killing all together.



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    Right, so if those verses can be interpreted in a more violent way, rather than the view that most Muslims hold, then the problem is with the individual. Not the Quran, or Islam itself. Me and many other Muslims have studied the quran in depth and there was nothing in there that radicalized me or anyone else I know. So then why is the religion to blame? If you look into the background of alot of these Isis terrorists, you'll find that they weren't even religious to begin with. It's this lack of knowlede that leads to them, like yourself, focusing solely on these 'violent' verses and taking them literally to justify their actions. If the problem was with Islam itself, the billions of Muslims worldwide would have blown everyone up by now.
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    (Original post by Sara_t)
    Did you even read the link that I posted? Allah is actully very specific in his arabic wording and grammar. The problem comes when all of that is lost in a translation. Which is why, if you truly want to understand the quran, you MUST devote time to studying it in it's original state . Yes a translation will give you a surface idea on what is being said but a translation will always be someone else's interpretation.
    There are MANY verses in the quran that imply that no one should be forced to live an Islamic way of life:
    'And say (Muhammad): 'the truth is from your Lord'. Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve' [al-khaf 18:29]

    'There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path' [surah al-baqarah 2:256]

    'So if they dispute with you (Muhammad), say: 'I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me'. And say to the people of the scripture and the unlearned: 'do you also submit yourselves?' If they do, then they are on the right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the message' [surah al-Imran:20]

    In Islam we believe that every human being has been given free will by God. People must make their own choices, that's the whole point.
    How can anyone else overlook the countless times the concept of forgiveness and mercy is mentioned throughout the quran and focus on those FEW verses that are pushed out of context and deemed violent.
    Essentially what you're saying is we can't understand the Quran without knowing Classical Arabic?

    Regarding free will, I'm gonna assume you're Sunni here but the concept of predestination in Islam goes against free will.

    [...] And Allah guides whom He wills to a straight path."(Quran 24:46)
    "And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise." (Quran 14:4)

    Hudhaifa b. Usaid reported directly from Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) that he said:When the drop of (semen) remains in the womb for forty or fifty (days) or forty nights, the angel comes and says: My Lord, will he be good or evil? And both these things would be written. Then the angel says: My Lord, would he be male or female? And both these things are written. And his deeds and actions, his death, his livelihood; these are also recorded. Then*his document of destiny*is rolled and there is no addition to nor subtraction from it." (Muslim 46 3)

    This one is pretty long but worth reading
    Spoiler:
    Show
    "Abdullah (b. Mas'ud) reported that Allah's Messenger (ﷺ) who is the most truthful (of the human beings) and his being truthful (is a fact) said:Verily your creation is on this wise. The constituents of one of you are collected for forty days in his mother's womb in the form of blood, after which it becomes a clot of blood in another period of forty days. Then it becomes a lump of flesh and forty days later*Allah sends His angel to it with instructions concerning four things, so the*angel writes down his livelihood, his death, his deeds, his fortune and misfortune. By Him, besides Whom there is no god, that one amongst you acts like the people deserving Paradise until between him and Paradise there remains but the distance of a cubit, when suddenly the writing of destiny overcomes him and he begins to act like the denizens of Hell and thus enters Hell, and another one acts in the way of the denizens of Hell, until there remains between him and Hell a distance of a cubit that the writing of destiny overcomes him and then he begins to act like the people of Paradise and enters Paradise."*


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    To all muslims on this page: don't waste your time on trying to convince these ignorants. Allah guides who He wills and misguides who He wills. We will not be questioned by Allah on the day of judgement regarding why this brother/sister left Islam. We will only be judged by what we have done. Besides, these people who are not muslims, have never read the Quran at all let alone study it. These non-muslims (and some muslims) are trying to portray that they know more about Quran and Islam than scholars who have devoted their whole lives to Islamic studies and yet think 100 times before making a comment on verses of the Quran or Hadith. I think it is absolutely futile to argue with ignorant people who are willing to stoop low to any stage to insult muslims and do not respect the beliefs of other people. My brothers and sisters, the more you argue with these ignorants (muslims or non-muslims) the more they will speak against Allah and His prophet. Let Allah be the judge. A kind request from a sister, please leave this thread and don't bother to reply to any of these people because they are only looking for faults within Islam not the truth. Let this brother/sister do whatever they, they want to leave Islam? fine let them do it. Allah does not need their worship. They will realise on the day of judgement.
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    (Original post by karishma9156)
    To all muslims on this page: don't waste your time on trying to convince these ignorants. Allah guides who He wills and misguides who He wills. We will not be questioned by Allah on the day of judgement regarding why this brother/sister left Islam. We will only be judged by what we have done. Besides, these people who are not muslims, have never read the Quran at all let alone study it. These non-muslims (and some muslims) are trying to portray that they know more about Quran and Islam than scholars who have devoted their whole lives to Islamic studies and yet think 100 times before making a comment on verses of the Quran or Hadith. I think it is absolutely futile to argue with ignorant people who are willing to stoop low to any stage to insult muslims and do not respect the beliefs of other people. My brothers and sisters, the more you argue with these ignorants (muslims or non-muslims) the more they will speak against Allah and His prophet. Let Allah be the judge. A kind request from a sister, please leave this thread and don't bother to reply to any of these people because they are only looking for faults within Islam not the truth. Let this brother/sister do whatever they, they want to leave Islam? fine let them do it. Allah does not need their worship. They will realise on the day of judgement.
    It seems you're looking forward to all of us "ignorants" burning in hell.

    Typical Muslim arrogance.
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    (Original post by Sara_t)
    Did you even read the link that I posted? Allah is actully very specific in his arabic wording and grammar. The problem comes when all of that is lost in a translation. Which is why, if you truly want to understand the quran, you MUST devote time to studying it in it's original state. Yes a translation will give you a surface idea on what is being said but a translation will always be someone else's interpretation.
    There are MANY verses in the quran that imply that no one should be forced to live an Islamic way of life:
    'And say (Muhammad): 'the truth is from your Lord'. Then whosoever wills, let him believe, and whosoever wills, let him disbelieve' [al-khaf 18:29]

    'There is no compulsion in religion. Verily, the right path has become distinct from the wrong path' [surah al-baqarah 2:256]

    'So if they dispute with you (Muhammad), say: 'I have submitted my whole self to Allah, and so have those who follow me'. And say to the people of the scripture and the unlearned: 'do you also submit yourselves?' If they do, then they are on the right guidance. But if they turn away, your duty is only to convey the message' [surah al-Imran:20]

    In Islam we believe that every human being has been given free will by God. People must make their own choices, that's the whole point.
    How can anyone else overlook the countless times the concept of forgiveness and mercy is mentioned throughout the quran and focus on those FEW verses that are pushed out of context and deemed violent.
    I read Arabic and have read the Quran about 3 times, and listened to it being read maybe 5 times in my life during Taraweeh prayers when I was younger.
    The Quran is not highly specific. Arabic is not a specific language by any means, yea it has its linguistic laws that some languages do not have, but it's incredibly vague when it comes to wording.

    First of all, a few verses is all it takes to disprove this is a work of God, who is supposedly perfect.
    Secondly, slaughtering and crucifying the enemies of Muhammed was not taken out of context, yea it referred to the tribal wars in the time, but I don't see how crucifixion is acceptable.
    Thirdly, saying that there is no compulsion in Islam is exactly the same as saying that dictatorships don't require people to join their political party. They still require you to follow their rules, pay them tax and do as they say, even they give you some freedom to believe in whom you want.
    Fourthly, if God was at all intelligent, why's his book so vulnerable to misunderstanding and misinterpretation, to the point that it could and it does justify the acts of people like ISIS and Al-Qaeda? And it's not just about translation, all you have to do to realise how unspecific the Quran is, is to look at the innumerous amounts of interpretation written by Arabic scholars over the years.
    Fifthly, I personally am not saying that Islam is a religion of terrorism, but it's so poorly written and so poorly delivered by Muhammed that no sane person could think it could be a work of God, the fact that it rhymes only adds to its silliness to be honest.

    Look, if you have an interpretation of Islam that is peaceful, that is fine. However, don't say that Islam is fundamentally peaceful, coz then no intelligent person who's read the book will take you seriously.
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    (Original post by Sara_t)
    Right, so if those verses can be interpreted in a more violent way, rather than the view that most Muslims hold, then the problem is with the individual. Not the Quran, or Islam itself. Me and many other Muslims have studied the quran in depth and there was nothing in there that radicalized me or anyone else I know. So then why is the religion to blame? If you look into the background of alot of these Isis terrorists, you'll find that they weren't even religious to begin with. It's this lack of knowlede that leads to them, like yourself, focusing solely on these 'violent' verses and taking them literally to justify their actions. If the problem was with Islam itself, the billions of Muslims worldwide would have blown everyone up by now.
    Silly analogy since most people don't want to die. So no, all muslims wouldn't and won't blow themselves and everyone up.

    I'm glad you and other focus on the peaceful aspect but the violent and questionable parts are still there regardless.
    Punishments for homosexuality, apostasy, adultery/fornication and issues regarding slavery, age of marriage etc
    These are all areas I personally have a issue with when it comes to Islam's take on them. You keep focusing on the Quran but the bulk of the punishments prescribed in Islam come from Hadiths, which is also where most of the controversial issues in Islam stem from.


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    (Original post by oShahpo)
    I read Arabic and have read the Quran about 3 times, and listened to it being read maybe 5 times in my life during Taraweeh prayers when I was younger.
    The Quran is not highly specific. Arabic is not a specific language by any means, yea it has its linguistic laws that some languages do not have, but it's incredibly vague when it comes to wording.

    First of all, a few verses is all it takes to disprove this is a work of God, who is supposedly perfect.
    Secondly, slaughtering and crucifying the enemies of Muhammed was not taken out of context, yea it referred to the tribal wars in the time, but I don't see how crucifixion is acceptable.
    Thirdly, saying that there is no compulsion in Islam is exactly the same as saying that dictatorships don't require people to join their political party. They still require you to follow their rules, pay them tax and do as they say, even they give you some freedom to believe in whom you want.
    Fourthly, if God was at all intelligent, why's his book so vulnerable to misunderstanding and misinterpretation, to the point that it could and it does justify the acts of people like ISIS and Al-Qaeda? And it's not just about translation, all you have to do to realise how unspecific the Quran is, is to look at the innumerous amounts of interpretation written by Arabic scholars over the years.
    Fifthly, I personally am not saying that Islam is a religion of terrorism, but it's so poorly written and so poorly delivered by Muhammed that no sane person could think it could be a work of God, the fact that it rhymes only adds to its silliness to be honest.

    Look, if you have an interpretation of Islam that is peaceful, that is fine. However, don't say that Islam is fundamentally peaceful, coz then no intelligent person who's read the book will take you seriously.
    Based on the points you have made, I can clearly tell that you are not an arabic speaker or have devoted time to actually understanding (not just reading) quranic arabic. The quran is very complex, hence why scholars devote their lives trying to understand the ayah and you're telling me you know it all because you read it a few times? Lol. As I mentioned previously, God himself says that he has opened the quran up to interpretion, those who believe will understand what the religion is really about and those who won't will get the wrong impression. I'm wasting my time, I doubt you'll change your view and I'll never change my view so we'll agree to disagree.
 
 
 
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