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Why do Leave voters think they know better than experts? watch

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    (Original post by drogon)
    Always a pleasure talking to you

    What a ridiculous notion, you think that oxford econ caused the crash? ffs.

    These experts aren't individuals, rather a collective group of researchers and statisticians who make independent reports. As i said, if you want to criticise the experts, have a go at their methodology. I need specifics.
    It doesn't take a expert to realise that printing money out of thin air will eventually lead to a currency crisis.

    Germany did it. Their economy collapsed.
    Argentina did it. Their economy collapsed.
    Zimbabwae did it. Their economy collapsed.
    Japan has done it. Their economy has been in stagnation ever since.
    USA has done it. Their economy is inflated and their stock prices are decreasing.
    Europe has done it. Their economy is failing and member states are screaming revolution.

    Britain did it twice but didn't go full idiot mode with it.

    QE is dangerous and unpredictable. Its like playing Russian roulette.

    Your experts are all Keynesian idiots who all back QE and yes men like Paul Krugman.

    Rome did QE and the Barbarians of Europe wiped them off the face of the Earth.

    These are facts which people can check rather than listening to rabble by some idiot called Mark Carney.
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    (Original post by illegaltobepoor)
    It doesn't take a expert to realise that printing money out of thin air will eventually lead to a currency crisis.

    Germany did it. Their economy collapsed.
    Argentina did it. Their economy collapsed.
    Zimbabwae did it. Their economy collapsed.
    Japan has done it. Their economy has been in stagnation ever since.
    USA has done it. Their economy is inflated and their stock prices are decreasing.
    Europe has done it. Their economy is failing and member states are screaming revolution.

    Britain did it twice but didn't go full idiot mode with it.

    QE is dangerous and unpredictable. Its like playing Russian roulette.

    Your experts are all Keynesian idiots who all back QE and yes men like Paul Krugman.

    Rome did QE and the Barbarians of Europe wiped them off the face of the Earth.

    These are facts which people can check rather than listening to rabble by some idiot called Mark Carney.
    The issue is more complicated than that. Their economies did not collapse solely because of QE.

    That said it is irrelevant to brexit. Instead of looking at their past, arguably tainted record you can point to me where their methodology has gone wrong or is flawed. You are comparing two things that are economically very different.
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    (Original post by drogon)
    The issue is more complicated than that. Their economies did not collapse solely because of QE.

    That said it is irrelevant to brexit. Instead of looking at their past, arguably tainted record you can point to me where their methodology has gone wrong or is flawed. You are comparing two things that are economically very different.
    If UK leaves the EU, EU will collapse. Cos UK is essentially financing the entire EU with the strong £ against the failed €. Do you recall the George Osbourne tax rebate fiasco from 2 years ago? EU slapped a £1.7 billion on UK but Cameron vowed that he would not pay it. What happened in the end? UK still paid up and did so quietly.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29751124
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...u-budget-bill/
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...n-budget-bill/
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ember-deadline
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...happening.html

    Yesterday, the German finance minister said he would cry if UK voted Brexit. Of course he would! Cos UK is the one funding the EU and Germany gets to dictate who gets the money and what to do with it.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-EU-referendum
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...718_story.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6909616.html

    Please understand that Germany controls the EU and dictates to the other member states when to stand up and when to sit down. France is her close ally despite their colourful history.

    If UK leaves, then the other poorer member states would want to follow suit. Do you recall last year when EU forced Greece to accept a humongous financial bailout which EU knew Greece would never be able to repay back cos the interests were just too high? and the greek banks allowed its citizens to withdraw only €120 per week? When this news first broke out in Greece, its citizens queued up outside the bank to withdraw their monies but the banks were shut. Do you recall this man who cried outside the bank and this image went viral?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ing-man-banks/



    If UK leaves then many EU citizens working in the UK and living off benefits will have to return back to their home countries. These EU citizens based in UK, don't want this to happen because UK is the only country in EU that offers such amazing benefits.

    Many of the lecturers in the UK unis are also against Brexit because if UK pulls out of it then these lecturers will have to return back to their home countries and re-apply via a work permit system. So far nothing unusual? The catch here is that these lecturers of EU origin will have to compete for lecturing jobs with equally abled or far better lecturers from New Zealand, Canada, Australia, India, Hong Kong and Singapore. This is the reason why many lecturers have been writing articles and blogs online to plead with UK citizens to vote in their favour. How selfish!

    If you have studied politics at A-level or at uni, depending on who your lecturer is and which textbook you're reading, you will know that ever since UK joined the EU, she has given away her sovereignty to the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg. I can't help but wonder why UK still needs a Supreme Court when its no longer supreme and a British parliament when it's no longer sovereign?

    Do you know that millions of British soldiers have died in several wars over the centuries to protect Queen and country? But Tony Blair let these millions of soldier died in vain because when he was in power for 10 years or so as the Prime Minister of UK, he allowed virtually everyone to enter the UK
    • without checking if they are holding genuine passports
    • without checking if they have links to terrorist groups
    • without checking if they have criminal records in their home countries
    • without checking if they have genuine educational qualifications or a trade skill
    • without checking if they have HIV/AIDS
    Someone recently asked me why should people wanting to enter into another country, be checked for HIV/AIDS? This is because the government owes a duty to its citizens to protect them from people who may want to infect others with their communicable diseases. This is an extension of a 'social contract theory'. Read up on it if you have time. Educate yourself.


    I'm German. As you know, many migrant men raped, molested and sexually abused many women in my country since New Year's Day.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ks-list-crimes
    http://www.news.com.au/finance/econo...d65045e65e141d

    This is the list of sex crimes against German women in one night. I hope you have a strong stomach for this.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

    You only have to see what the German police commissioner said on national TV to understand the true extent of the migrant crisis. Mind you, the higher command in Germany gave him a piece of their mind following the telecast of this interview. Watch it to believe it.



    I hope all of you reading my post, bears this in mind. A country's sovereignty, security and safety of its citizens is so important. With Merkel's blunder, we have become a carbon copy of UK & the rest of EU and their set of problems.

    Merkel has been in hiding for many months now. She's pushing 62 years of age. She won't throw in the towel just yet. If UK decides to remain in the EU, I am certain they will make EU into a united states of Europe and she would be the major contender for the post of PM of the USE. Tony Blair has quietened down way too much to be able to stake a claim for that coveted position.

    Merkel studied physics and then chemistry. She has no knowledge and understanding about politics, law, finance and sociology. She tells the German public one thing and tells the EU another thing and then tells the world another thing. Sometime back she said that refugees must now return back to their countries of origin after the wars back home have ended.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN0V80IH

    With Turkey's inclusion into the EU imminent, there will be 77 million Turks who will get to make their debut appearance in any of the EU member states. They will not go to France because France has zero tolerance towards Muslims. They will continue to come to Germany or go to the UK where the borders are invincible and where the border agents have zero powers to turn people away.

    And if you go onto the Oxbridge threads on this forum and some of the other top UK unis, you will see a growing number of EU students who simply want UK to stay in the EU so that they can apply for student loans because without it they will not be able to study in these top unis. Their main priority is to get the funding and get a place at these tops unis.

    So you must be wondering whats wrong with that? Well, a growing number of EU students simply take these loans, one after another and then disappear after they've completed their studies without repaying the loans and the British government has to write off these debts. It's been reported several times and it's about time UK puts her foot down.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...g-tuition-fees
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ing-loans.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...pay-debts.html

    The money you send to EU can be used to invest in your NHS, build more hospitals, recruit more police officers, increase their salaries which should apply to teachers and junior doctors too, give incentives (funding, tax breaks) to British citizens to start their own businesses (entrepreneurship) and so much more.

    Lastly, and I could be wrong but my observations tell me that several people on this forum who oppose Brexit are from two camps. The first comprises of first generation British citizens whose parents immigrated to UK which is why they feel as though people are trying to marginalize their parents when they vocally support Brexit. The second are people who were born abroad and immigrated to UK at a young age with their parents in tow and similarly feeling being discriminated against when people support Brexit.

    In both instances these people are wrong. As a result of their personal bias (which is understandable), they are unable to see what Brexit actually means. So it doesn't matter how many of these threads are created, how many different ways the thread title is hashed and rehashed and/or how many more good points substantiated with hard evidence is provided, these people will never alter their position.

    The only way we can move forward is when people remove the wool from their eyes, put their personal agendas aside and see the referendum for what it actually is. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union? and for the reasons I've stated, the answer is obvious. Need I elaborate more?

    Vote Leave!

    All credit of this vital information goes to TSR member: Audrey18
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    If UK leaves the EU, EU will collapse. Cos UK is essentially financing the entire EU with the strong £ against the failed €. Do you recall the George Osbourne tax rebate fiasco from 2 years ago? EU slapped a £1.7 billion on UK but Cameron vowed that he would not pay it. What happened in the end? UK still paid up and did so quietly.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/business-29751124
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...u-budget-bill/
    http://www.euractiv.com/section/uk-e...n-budget-bill/
    http://www.theguardian.com/politics/...ember-deadline
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...happening.html

    Yesterday, the German finance minister said he would cry if UK voted Brexit. Of course he would! Cos UK is the one funding the EU and Germany gets to dictate who gets the money and what to do with it.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/politi...-EU-referendum
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...718_story.html
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...-a6909616.html

    Please understand that Germany controls the EU and dictates to the other member states when to stand up and when to sit down. France is her close ally despite their colourful history.

    If UK leaves, then the other poorer member states would want to follow suit. Do you recall last year when EU forced Greece to accept a humongous financial bailout which EU knew Greece would never be able to repay back cos the interests were just too high? and the greek banks allowed its citizens to withdraw only €120 per week? When this news first broke out in Greece, its citizens queued up outside the bank to withdraw their monies but the banks were shut. Do you recall this man who cried outside the bank and this image went viral?
    https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ing-man-banks/



    If UK leaves then many EU citizens working in the UK and living off benefits will have to return back to their home countries. These EU citizens based in UK, don't want this to happen because UK is the only country in EU that offers such amazing benefits.

    Many of the lecturers in the UK unis are also against Brexit because if UK pulls out of it then these lecturers will have to return back to their home countries and re-apply via a work permit system. So far nothing unusual? The catch here is that these lecturers of EU origin will have to compete for lecturing jobs with equally abled or far better lecturers from New Zealand, Canada, Australia, India, Hong Kong and Singapore. This is the reason why many lecturers have been writing articles and blogs online to plead with UK citizens to vote in their favour. How selfish!

    If you have studied politics at A-level or at uni, depending on who your lecturer is and which textbook you're reading, you will know that ever since UK joined the EU, she has given away her sovereignty to the unelected bureaucrats in Brussels and Luxembourg. I can't help but wonder why UK still needs a Supreme Court when its no longer supreme and a British parliament when it's no longer sovereign?

    Do you know that millions of British soldiers have died in several wars over the centuries to protect Queen and country? But Tony Blair let these millions of soldier died in vain because when he was in power for 10 years or so as the Prime Minister of UK, he allowed virtually everyone to enter the UK
    • without checking if they are holding genuine passports
    • without checking if they have links to terrorist groups
    • without checking if they have criminal records in their home countries
    • without checking if they have genuine educational qualifications or a trade skill
    • without checking if they have HIV/AIDS
    Someone recently asked me why should people wanting to enter into another country, be checked for HIV/AIDS? This is because the government owes a duty to its citizens to protect them from people who may want to infect others with their communicable diseases. This is an extension of a 'social contract theory'. Read up on it if you have time. Educate yourself.


    I'm German. As you know, many migrant men raped, molested and sexually abused many women in my country since New Year's Day.
    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-35231046
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/...ks-list-crimes
    http://www.news.com.au/finance/econo...d65045e65e141d

    This is the list of sex crimes against German women in one night. I hope you have a strong stomach for this.
    http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

    You only have to see what the German police commissioner said on national TV to understand the true extent of the migrant crisis. Mind you, the higher command in Germany gave him a piece of their mind following the telecast of this interview. Watch it to believe it.



    I hope all of you reading my post, bears this in mind. A country's sovereignty, security and safety of its citizens is so important. With Merkel's blunder, we have become a carbon copy of UK & the rest of EU and their set of problems.

    Merkel has been in hiding for many months now. She's pushing 62 years of age. She won't throw in the towel just yet. If UK decides to remain in the EU, I am certain they will make EU into a united states of Europe and she would be the major contender for the post of PM of the USE. Tony Blair has quietened down way too much to be able to stake a claim for that coveted position.

    Merkel studied physics and then chemistry. She has no knowledge and understanding about politics, law, finance and sociology. She tells the German public one thing and tells the EU another thing and then tells the world another thing. Sometime back she said that refugees must now return back to their countries of origin after the wars back home have ended.
    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu...-idUSKCN0V80IH

    With Turkey's inclusion into the EU imminent, there will be 77 million Turks who will get to make their debut appearance in any of the EU member states. They will not go to France because France has zero tolerance towards Muslims. They will continue to come to Germany or go to the UK where the borders are invincible and where the border agents have zero powers to turn people away.

    And if you go onto the Oxbridge threads on this forum and some of the other top UK unis, you will see a growing number of EU students who simply want UK to stay in the EU so that they can apply for student loans because without it they will not be able to study in these top unis. Their main priority is to get the funding and get a place at these tops unis.

    So you must be wondering whats wrong with that? Well, a growing number of EU students simply take these loans, one after another and then disappear after they've completed their studies without repaying the loans and the British government has to write off these debts. It's been reported several times and it's about time UK puts her foot down.
    http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/672...g-tuition-fees
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...ing-loans.html
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education...pay-debts.html

    The money you send to EU can be used to invest in your NHS, build more hospitals, recruit more police officers, increase their salaries which should apply to teachers and junior doctors too, give incentives (funding, tax breaks) to British citizens to start their own businesses (entrepreneurship) and so much more.

    Lastly, and I could be wrong but my observations tell me that several people on this forum who oppose Brexit are from two camps. The first comprises of first generation British citizens whose parents immigrated to UK which is why they feel as though people are trying to marginalize their parents when they vocally support Brexit. The second are people who were born abroad and immigrated to UK at a young age with their parents in tow and similarly feeling being discriminated against when people support Brexit.

    In both instances these people are wrong. As a result of their personal bias (which is understandable), they are unable to see what Brexit actually means. So it doesn't matter how many of these threads are created, how many different ways the thread title is hashed and rehashed and/or how many more good points substantiated with hard evidence is provided, these people will never alter their position.

    The only way we can move forward is when people remove the wool from their eyes, put their personal agendas aside and see the referendum for what it actually is. Should the United Kingdom remain a member of the European Union? and for the reasons I've stated, the answer is obvious. Need I elaborate more?

    Vote Leave!
    tl;dr

    probably a load of ********.
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    (Original post by drogon)
    tl;dr

    probably a load of ********.
    Now that is what I call ignorance everyone.
    He doesnt even bother to have a read or have an open mind.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Now that is what I call ignorance everyone.
    He doesnt even bother to have a read or have an open mind.
    Nah, i just don't have read it all. I had a quick skim and there were too many errors to address so i thought why bother.

    Sorry for wasting your time.
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Economists all over the world agree that leaving the EU is bad for our economy - "they don't know what they're talking about!!"

    Scientists all over the world tell us leaving the EU will be bad for science, technology and the environment - "selfish!!!"

    Leaders of every country of any significance telling us we'll be less powerful - "grrrrr but we're the mighty British Empire!!!!"

    I really can't understand the arrogance and ignorance involved in maintaining these kinds of delusions. It's really not normal or okay to dismiss the opinions of EVERYONE that knows what they're talking about, and deciding that you know better because you read the Daily Mail. At best it's a shocking lack of critical thinking, at worst it's schizophrenia.
    The only thing economists are experts at is predicting things wrong!

    I don't read the daily mail, I support the Labour party and its principles go against the EU's agenda
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    (Original post by drogon)
    What? Are you serious? All of them have. I for one have seen the methodology for the Bank Of England which appears comprehensive and coherent. The IMF, Oxford econ and all the others have published theres and have been simplified on the news so the viewers can see.

    The Remain campaign have been very transparent when it comes to their research. The leave campaign on the other hand dismiss it or just choose not to look at it. Ironically that's what you're doing here too.
    Can you post a link? I have seen the reports but not the underlying methodology.

    Thanks
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    (Original post by DJKL)
    Can you post a link? I have seen the reports but not the underlying methodology.

    Thanks
    Dont be so lazy and google it for yourself. I cant find the latest bank of england one but this will suffice:

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publi...uboe211015.pdf

    It's an older one but there's newer ones.
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    (Original post by Naveed-7)
    Now that is what I call ignorance everyone.
    He doesnt even bother to have a read or have an open mind.
    That you have ripped off from someone else and presented as your own, without crediting them at all.

    So yeah tl;dr

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    (Original post by drogon)
    Dont be so lazy and google it for yourself. I cant find the latest bank of england one but this will suffice:

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publi...uboe211015.pdf

    It's an older one but there's newer ones.
    Thanks:

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publi...uboe211015.pdf

    "It is difficult to quantify the precise impact of EU membership on the UK economy.

    First of all, it is impossible to say with any certainty what the UK economy would have looked like had the UK not joined the EU in 1973.

    Second, EU membership affects the UK economy in many different ways, and through many different channels, at least some of which are not easy to quantify with any degree of certainty.

    Third, any quantitative assessment will necessarily depend on a wide range of very uncertain economic assumptions."

    Annex 1, page 85


    Slightly more on the fence in October 2015 than now appears to be the case, but then again discussions re reforms sought by DC had yet to take place, so possibly safer to fence sit at that juncture, or maybe I am a cynic.

    I think they make a reasonable case re stability/cross border regulation in financial markets, they also at least acknowledge the possible EU amplifier effect as a conduit of world financial shocks to the UK market, they also table a range of outcomes from other studies but do warn re these studies' limitations, but they do not themselves appear to have originated any study themselves, the report appears to be a synthesis of the work of others and suffers from these other studies limitations re scope.

    They do somewhat skate past the effect on UK GDP of a leave vote, but to be fair the paper does appear to intend to be more a reassurance document that the BofE has in place systems that are capable of modifying shocks to the financial system (stabilise) rather than an economic impact assessment of Brexit.

    It is interesting but is no slam dunk; it does appear nobody has prepared and published a full model listing all input assumptions of a Brexit exit (with a similar analysis of the risks of remain) and they do appear to acknowledge this within the report.

    Or is this an unfair critique?
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    (Original post by DJKL)
    Thanks:

    http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/publi...uboe211015.pdf

    "It is difficult to quantify the precise impact of EU membership on the UK economy.

    First of all, it is impossible to say with any certainty what the UK economy would have looked like had the UK not joined the EU in 1973.

    Second, EU membership affects the UK economy in many different ways, and through many different channels, at least some of which are not easy to quantify with any degree of certainty.

    Third, any quantitative assessment will necessarily depend on a wide range of very uncertain economic assumptions."

    Annex 1, page 85

    Slightly more on the fence in October 2015 than now appears to be the case, but then again discussions re reforms sought by DC had yet to take place, so possibly safer to fence sit at that juncture, or maybe I am a cynic.

    I think they make a reasonable case re stability/cross border regulation in financial markets, they also at least acknowledge the possible EU amplifier effect as a conduit of world financial shocks to the UK market, they also table a range of outcomes from other studies but do warn re these studies' limitations, but they do not themselves appear to have originated any study themselves, the report appears to be a synthesis of the work of others and suffers from these other studies limitations re scope.

    They do somewhat skate past the effect on UK GDP of a leave vote, but to be fair the paper does appear to intend to be more a reassurance document that the BofE has in place systems that are capable of modifying shocks to the financial system (stabilise) rather than an economic impact assessment of Brexit.

    It is interesting but is no slam dunk; it does appear nobody has prepared and published a full model listing all input assumptions of a Brexit exit (with a similar analysis of the risks of remain) and they do appear to acknowledge this within the report.

    Or is this an unfair critique?
    As i said i couldnt find the latest one. that one did have all input assumption, best and worst case scenarios.

    More crucially though, your "critique" hardly debunks the methodology and substantiates the claim that these sources are not reputable. interesting.
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    Two pages in and I can't read anymore of this *******s. Not even a discussion or productive argument - just personal insults.
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    (Original post by BioStudentx)
    Two pages in and I can't read anymore of this *******s. Not even a discussion or productive argument - just personal insults.
    Don't forgot Naveed just copying and pasting things from other people. :lol:
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    (Original post by JordanL_)
    Economists all over the world agree that leaving the EU is bad for our economy
    It is the humble opinion of this independent Economist that it impossible to be completely clear as to what the trade-linked economic impact of #Brexit would be; that is, except to say that when it comes to International Political Economy, and the quality of our diplomatic/economic personnel and institutions, the UK is well placed to minimise related turbulence, and that - contrary to what the media has been telling us - there are plenty of respected Economists who have conducted detailed analyses and concluded that leaving would be in our economic interests e.g. Professors Minford and Congdon, Economists For Brexit, and Capital Economics

    Full article here. Thank you, and good night :top2:
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    Leave voters don't believe REMAIN experts. The EU, IMF, WTO, NATO, OECD etc were all set up after WWII by the Western allies to govern their conquests. As David Miliband put it, they are the "International Order".

    LEAVE experts say that leaving will be good for the UK.

    Prior to Project Fear the Remain experts thought Brexit would have little effect. Carney said it would have much less effect than global events.

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    (Original post by newpersonage)
    Leave voters don't believe REMAIN experts. The EU, IMF, WTO, NATO, OECD etc were all set up after WWII by the Western allies to govern their conquests. As David Miliband put it, they are the "International Order".

    LEAVE experts say that leaving will be good for the UK.

    Prior to Project Fear the Remain experts thought Brexit would have little effect. Carney said it would have much less effect than global events.

    So now you no longer want to cooperate with NATO, IMF, OECD, WTO or the EU...

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    (Original post by Malevolent)
    Don't forgot Naveed just copying and pasting things from other people. :lol:
    I mean you're saying he is "copying and pasting other people" but the thread starter just said a very vague statement that "all experts want to stay" without defining experts, giving names or any sources... Just because you use other peoples arguments - doesn't make it any less valid... It's a better argument than saying "all experts say we should stay" then just finishing it there...

    This thread is dumb. I don't really care whether we leave the EU or not but the arguments on TSR have swayed me towards leave more than remain.
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    (Original post by BioStudentx)
    I mean you're saying he is "copying and pasting other people" but the thread starter just said a very vague statement that "all experts want to stay" without defining experts, giving names or any sources... Just because you use other peoples arguments - doesn't make it any less valid... It's a better argument than saying "all experts say we should stay" then just finishing it there...

    This thread is dumb. I don't really care whether we leave the EU or not but the arguments on TSR have swayed me towards leave more than remain.
    Here's a list


    http://www.strongerin.co.uk/experts

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    (Original post by jneill)
    Here's a list



    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Noted. And as above someone listed people who support "brexit". This is the problem, it's impossible to predict the future and there's constant contrasting opinions - all these "experts" have personal agendas. This is the reason why some people won't be voting. It's interesting how some people on this thread are arrogant enough to be certain of the future.
 
 
 
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