Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by The Epicurean)
    How so? Considering he was in the process of committing genocide, I find it hard to believe the end would have been much better. Much like with Assad, there would have been a similar uprising, possibly another intifada like happened in 1991.
    Do you see what the end was like, though? How could Iraq possibly be doing any worse than it is right now?
    Offline

    18
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by QE2)
    Ironic that your post is clearly made by someone with only a superficial and selective understanding of Islam.
    The Quran and sunnah contain passages that justify peace and violence, tolerance and intolerance, equality and oppression, People will take those parts that suit their agenda - or the ones that they have been told.

    Your dismissal of ISIS as "Not True Muslims" because they favour a different interpretation and agenda, is no different from their dismissal of you, for exactly the same reasons (although their interpretation puts into practice the permission to kill Munafiqun under certain conditions).
    Okay so in the Quran they read a passage and interpreted it as that your allowed to kill, however one of the most clearest commands or rules if you like, is the one that tells us killing any human is forbidden, and doing so will be as if we have not killed one person, but the whole of mankind. Why would you interpret when the meaning is clearly there? Surely they want to twist words now, dont you think?

    Also lets look at the passages of the quran
    Example : Quran 9:5
    Islam-critics only post 9:5:“Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (Translation, Quran 9:5)Let’s read the verse in context 9:1-9:5:Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (Translation, Quran 9:1-5)

    This verses is always quoted out of context, they never post 9:6 or from 9:1 to 9:6. If we read from start it states that there was a treaty, which the Pagans of Arab broke. Thus Allah gave them 4 months as 9:2 states in order to amend the treaty. Verse 9:4 states that the punishment prescribed in 9:5 is ONLY to those who broke the treaty and NOT to those who abided by the treaty. Therefore the context of 9:5 is of war with the pagan Arabs who broke the treaty yet refused to amend it in 4 months.
    Naturally, in war violence is expected. If a war is declared between Country A and Country B, because country B broke the treaty and refused to amend, then if president of country A states “wherever you find soldiers of Country B, you kill them and besiege them”, no one would truly find much wrong in that statement.
    Killing in war is nothing peculiar, and there is yet to be a war where soldiers hugged and kissed each other.

    Dr Zakir Naik said: “4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battleSimilarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, “Kill the Mushriqs [pagans] where ever you find them”, during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.”Islam-critics remain shy of posting the next verse, 9:6, as it contains the answer to their deception:“And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. (Translation, Quran 9:6)Quran does not only say that you release those who seek protection but it goes even further and states to protect them! In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?

    Hence even in war Quran promotes peace.

    -norasensation
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    Muslims are the root of all evil. If you read Allah backwards, it says Devil.
    Offline

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Kutta)
    Nope..

    Is it fair to blame "white" people for slavery?
    is it fair to blame Christians for the KKK?
    is it fair to blame Christians for Breivik?
    Is it fair to blame Christians for the Lords Resistance Army?
    Is it fair to blame Christians for the Westboro Baptist Church?
    Is it fair to blame Sikhs for Flight 182?
    Is it fair to blame Jews for the actions of the state of Israel?
    is it fair to blame Indians/Hindus for the actions of Hindu extremists in India?
    Is it fair to blame Buddhists for Wirathu (aka the Burmese Bin Laden)?
    is it fair to blame white people for the destructing of ancient civilisations such the Indians?
    is it fair to blame Christians for Hitler and Nazi's?
    is it fair to blame the Chinese for Chairman Mao?
    is it fair to blame normal everyday Americans for the atomic bomb attacks which still effects peoples lives today?
    is it fair to blame us Brits for the drone strikes which kill innocent people?
    Is it fair to blame Muslims for ISIS?

    you get the picture....
    exactly
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    You blame the Muslims who commit these atrocities but you don't blame all Muslims

    you can also blame Islam as this is their ideology and their interpretation

    But those denying this is a muslim issue are just as dangerous as those comminting the slaughter.
    Offline

    8
    ReputationRep:
    Name:  ImageUploadedByStudent Room1467707216.536589.jpg
Views: 131
Size:  172.1 KB

    Name:  ImageUploadedByStudent Room1467707317.899083.jpg
Views: 130
Size:  182.1 KB

    Hope people understand, can't blame the majority for the acts of the minority, this is not the teaching of Islam or the Quran:

    Name:  ImageUploadedByStudent Room1467707387.673598.jpg
Views: 142
Size:  98.6 KB


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    My real problem is, why does there religion connote marrying young girls, as either the prophet Muhammad or Allah raped a girl? That is what I have read and want to know if it's true?


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    This is very dishonest quote and it has been refuted many times

    Telling porkies to cover for Islamic terror is as bad as the terror itself (IMO)
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    Why is there such a big debate? It’s not fair.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    17
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Kadak)
    I have actually read a bit about the Marsh Arabs but not alot because they dont seem as well known as the Kurds .
    I dont get the controversy around the highway of death,is it wrong to bombard fleeing soldiers ?Or was it the fact the Iraqi soldiers were so helpless ?
    From what I understand, under international law when soldiers have agreed to a ceasefire and are retreating (and thus no longer fighting), then attacking them is not allowed. It is the Geneva Convention of 1949, common article 3 which was violated by the US in this event.

    The other problem was that it was not only soldiers, but also Iraqi civilians and civilians of other nationalities too who were traveling along the road. And the other issue was the tactics that were used, which one could argue were disproportionate to the threat posed. Everyone was heading on the highway back to Iraq, which obviously was very congested. America decided to bomb the vehicles at the front and rear of the line of vehicles, thus stopping anyone in between from moving on the road, and then just went back and forth along the road bombing every vehicle

    (Original post by tanyapotter)
    Do you see what the end was like, though? How could Iraq possibly be doing any worse than it is right now?
    So a genocide of the Kurds and the Marsh Arabs would have been better to the status quo? Not to mention that the Arab Spring would have effected Saddam much like it did Assad. In 1991 there were massive revolts throughout the country, so it is very likely the same thing would have happened once the Arab Spring reached neighbouring countries like Syria. Thus we would have ended up most likely in fairly similar situation.

    Everyone knows Iraq is not in a great situation now. But the idea that Iraq would somehow have been better under Saddam is absurd.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by TheO.G.Slayer)
    what is this tripe?

    Islam is a religion of patience and peace, Muslims are humble, righteous and more rounded individuals.. of course nobody is perfect but theres a reason more people convert to islam over any other religion...
    The Quran contains many unpleasant and violent verses, this is fact and not "tripe".

    Where is your evidence that more people convert to Islam than other religions?
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by champ_mc99)
    This is actually quite interesting. If the moderates cannot claim ISIS are not true Muslims then according to your logic, ISIS cannot do the same vice versa. Hence, when ISIS do kill muslims they may say those that are killed were not true Muslims but here they would be playing the no true scottsman fallacy too. Hence, we can say those killed by ISIS are Muslims right? Look at the following verse:

    And whoever kills a believer intentionally, his punishment is Hell; he shall abide in it, and Allah will send His wrath on him and curse him and prepare for him a painful chastisement...

    So technically after they kill another muslim they aren't "true" or they are unislamic.
    Yes, ISIS may indeed be using the No True Scotsman fallacy and twisting verses to suit their agenda. Whereas most Muslims cherry pick the peaceful verses, they pick the violent ones.

    No, that quote does not say that it stops them from being Muslim, merely that they'll go to hell. And again, ISIS could merely say that that verse doesn't apply to them as they believe that those who they kill aren't Muslim.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tanyapotter)
    Yes.
    How can you say that? I'm Iraqi myself and my father fled Iraq a long time ago because of saddam. My dad even said Muslims were being beheaded because of saddam Hussein or being told to leave Iraq if they were Iranian or Kurdish.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    The Quran contains many unpleasant and violent verses, this is fact and not "tripe".

    Where is your evidence that more people convert to Islam than other religions?
    And so does every other holy book. We do not follow every exact thing the Qu’ran states if we believe it is not right.

    Need I remind you that the Qu’ran was made centuries ago, society is much more different than it was then.

    Islam is a religion of peace – I would know. All the Muslims I have met are the most humble, kind and beautiful people I have ever met. They hear all the **** that people like you say, and yet, they would still treat you with utmost kindness.

    They believe in forgiveness, modesty and kindness. It’s crazy that these innocent people are being called terrorists just because of the actions of other people?

    Let me tell you a few facts about Islam that you probably do not know:

    • They have to pay to charity, it’s an obligation. It is one of the main pillars of Islam.

    • They call each other brothers, sisters. My friends have to call their elders aunties, uncles.

    • “Heaven lies under your mothers feet” this means that you have to treat your mother with U T M O S T respect. Like U T M O S T. The way my friends treat their mothers make me look bad.

    • They respect every religion.

    Media had manipulated us into believing that Islam is an extreme religion in which they practise acts of terrorism. They really don’t. They couldn’t care less. After that attack on the twin towers, Islam has been shamed as a religion by our society. Why? For what reason? The amount of acts of terror other religions have done, mainly Christianity, is not shamed.

    Let us not forget the black churches? Which were shot up by that young man? And how long did he serve in prison?

    Let us not forget the KKK? And how they lynched blacks in public? And now they are threatening to create something ‘big’?

    Let us not forget police brutality against people of colour now?

    Stop focusing on what the media want to focus. Stay woke.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Shiby_123)
    this is not the teaching of Islam or the Quran:
    You have fallen into the usual apologist trap of quoting verse 5:32 of the Koran. You are obviously unaware that the context of the verse gives the section an entirely different, non-peaceful, meaning. You need to read verses 5:30-34 in their entirety to learn that the peaceful message you chose to post (and intended for the Jews) was withdrawn by your god and replaced by a violent retribution for anti-Islamic agitators.

    Verse 5:33 says:

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by rhia9)
    Islam is a religion of peace. Is ISIS really "Islamic" or are they just using this as a mask and the real reason for the attacks is the urge to have power? Why do people say "Muslims were responsible for the 9/11 attacks, or the Paris bombings?" Were they really?


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Of course it's not fair. There are millions of Muslims on this planet. Many of whom also face the very real threat of terror at the hands of Islamic terrorists. Merely blaming 'muslims' for terror is incredibly simplistic and pretty dehumanising.
    Offline

    2
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Good bloke)
    You have fallen into the usual apologist trap of quoting verse 5:32 of the Koran. You are obviously unaware that the context of the verse gives the section an entirely different, non-peaceful, meaning. You need to read verses 5:30-34 in their entirety to learn that the peaceful message you chose to post (and intended for the Jews) was withdrawn by your god and replaced by a violent retribution for anti-Islamic agitators.

    Verse 5:33 says:

    Indeed, the penalty for those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger and strive upon earth [to cause] corruption is none but that they be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from opposite sides or that they be exiled from the land. That is for them a disgrace in this world; and for them in the Hereafter is a great punishment,
    Read my post above.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Offline

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by dexterminate)
    And so does every other holy book. We do not follow every exact thing the Qu’ran states if we believe it is not right.
    Then you should not call yourselves Moslems. The Koran itself claims to be perfect. If you do things it bans, or don't do things it mandates, then you are not following what your god intended. You may be a follower of New Islam, of course.

    It would make more sense to admit it is all nonsense, tell your parents they are all indoctrinated dinosaurs, and get on with leading a good life untroubled by mediaeval superstitious nonsense that was promulgated to gain political control of gullible desert-dwellers for warlike purposes.
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by rhia9)
    I don't understand how some people can be so small minded. Muslims should take the blame for the actions of disgusting terrorists just because they wish to call themselves Muslims? Really?
    So far, pretty much every comment I've read states that all Muslims should not be blamed for Islamist attacks, only those involved with the attacks.

    You need to be able to make the distinction between and ideology, and the followers of that ideology.
    One is a cohesive set of ideas that can be analysed and criticised.
    The other is a non-homogeneous collection of individuals, who should be judged on their individual words and deeds.
    Online

    16
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by tamanna___)
    Even if they started out as fasting, killing and their evil intentions break their fast, also they miss prayers whilst attacking - also breaks fast, numerous things they do will break their fast, so even if they are fasting, they're not, fasting is not just not eating, its a lot more
    You seem to be making a lot of assertions about individuals that you can have no knowledge of.

    Also, you make some ideological errors.
    Performing justifiable violent jihad does not break your fast. Rather, deeds that meet with Allah's approval are multiplied in value during ramadan, so if the ISIS interpretation is correct, then they are gaining big jannah brownie points (please don't attempt to claim to know what Allah approves and does not approve of - that is close to shirk).
    Also, simply breaking your fast is not an act of kufr, so even if they did, they are still Muslims. Calling takfir on a Muslim who hasn't wilfully expressed disbelief is forbidden by Allah, and apparently, the takfir rebounds onto the caller.

    You say they have "evil intention", but if they are devout Muslims who genuinely believe that they are doing Allah's work as required by the Quran and sunnah (which many clearly are), then their intentions are not evil.

    Look. You don't like what they do. I don't like what they do. The majority of the planet doesn't like it... But they believe that it is what Allah wants of them, and they can point to passages in the Quran and sunnah to support them.

    On the other hand, you (I assume) condemn actions that they take, that are explicitly permitted in the Quran and sunnah (like using female captives as sex slaves, for instance). Therefore, to the devout retentionist Muslim, you are rejecting the inafallible and immutable word of god.
    And that is an act of kufr!
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Brussels sprouts
    Useful resources
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.