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Guardian: 'We are Europeans. Brexit will make us face up to it' watch

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    Only Remain seems to see Brexit as being about becoming more powerful than other countries, dictating to or dominating them, or even just out-competing them.

    Brexit was about Britain becoming Britain again, just as Australia is Australia, Singapore is Singapore, and Botswana is Botswana. Whether anyone outside these islands cares about that, or us, is irrelevant.

    If you want to chase power, then the EU is probably the place to be. If you just want amenable laws in your own country, it's not. I would question the wisdom of trading freedom for power.
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    You understand zero about British people or our temperament, which is why all you have is insults. We don't appreciate sneering, condescending braggarts and when you combine this with insufferable bossiness, an anti-authoritarian people are not going to warm to you.

    You reported me for 'abuse' earlier, like the prissy snob you are, because you dish it out endlessly and baselessly and can't take it. Whether Britain has closer ties to Europe than commonwealth countries is a matter of policy, not of your pompous wisdom that it is a fact.

    We have a shared cultural history, political and legal system and language. I said I had little reason to learn a continental language, not a foreign one. You clearly don't read very carefully, for someone so intellectually superior.

    That is a personal choice, an option of living in a free country. I don't prescribe diktats to other people, or demean their free life choices, because I am not a patronising authoritarian. And the bit about being confrontational and aggressive is just beyond belief, take a look at German history.Isolationism is just an absurd point too.

    Who made you god, if someone wants to focus on other aspects of education, practicality, and spend time in the US or countries with the same language, rather than learn European languages, that is their right to do.

    You are utterly insufferable, arrogant, bossy, pompous snob- the perfect crystallization of the worst in autocratic German arrogance and why so many Europeans dislike the Germans.

    Just who the hell do you think you are calling Brits racist, demeaning the perfectly legitimate life choices of Brits and moralizing endlessly about our foreign policy and history, whilst you sneer about how superior you are and how everyone should do as you say? You don't juts fail to understand the British temperament, you fail to understand any decent, normal human's temperament.

    This is why so many Europeans are now through with the German controlled Europe.

    Love, and kisses, from your favourite 'nationalist mouth breather'

    P.S I think you may have been reading too much Nietzsche, maybe you are going mad like he did too.


    Does anyone feel Teutons parents may have spoilt him just a tiny bit?
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    (Original post by SaucissonSecCy)
    The fact that so many remainer are so insufferable and self-satisfied and patronising, not to mention indoctrinated, just makes me more and more delighted we left.
    This, just this over and over.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Oh, you WILL get a *****y deal. The EU is not breaking up, what are you even talking about? Now that the ideological cancer that was Britain has removed itself, it can thrive even more.

    The EU's share is actually 16.5% - and it was by far the UK's biggest trading partner, so you're pretty much screwed now.

    Just goes to show the actual economic knowledge of Brexiters; you, my friend, know absolutely nothing. Go hang out with the knuckle-dragging peasants that voted Leave together with you.

    52% of Europeans backed Brexit? Care to back up that number? Oh, you saw it in the Daily Mail? Of course. You got nothing, as usual, just hot air. Typical Leave voter. Uneducated, uninformed, populist.
    Here's some stats to sink you.

    http://www.pewglobal.org/2016/06/07/...beyond-brexit/

    If we're punished by the EU for leaving, it will only confirm that the EU has become a power hungry, corrupt and blackmailing entitiy and justify the descision in choosing to leave.

    Also, you put a lot of energy into saying we're wrong etc etc. This doesn't even affect you, so what do you care?

    You claim the UK in tiny and insignificant, yet it pays the second highest amount of the EU budget? Which one is it? When the UK leaves, Germany alone is going to have to find and extra £2billion to replace the UK's contribution.

    Are you even trying to change our opinion or just trying to ridicule us? (and failing, lol) You're certainly not making remaining in the EU look any better with your attacks and other drivel.

    You claim to be so massively superior to everyone else (first sign of a basket case) yet you're posts have gaping holes in them.

    I'm still waiting for a reply to my previous post.
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    We're not European. Our culture influences Europe, not so much the other way around.
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    TitanicTeutonicPhil's hysterical anger is the age-old expression of the age-old German inferiority complex with respect to Britain. If he really thought we were losing out by Brexit he would be condescending, not angry.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    What a load of fascist, dangerous nonsense. Posting this in German so you don't get blocked by the moderators?
    I can post in english as well. This forum values freedom of speech unlike the BRD media and government.

    A patriotic Germany would be more popular among European nations. Because the monster Merkel is destroying Europe so the only who can stop her within Germany are the german patriots.

    Secondly I see the German Empire 1871-1914 as Germany best incarnation for many reasons. And if the BRD resemvled more to a Germany of chancellor Bismarck would be a benefit to Europe.

    There now report me to Bundesverfassung.... sorry I mean mods.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    Rubbish. We don't 'hate' our German identity, and we have never been taught that we are 'evil people'. Where do you get this stuff from?

    We have been carefully taught about what previous generations did and how it came to that.
    Where do I get it? I need only to look at your media, statements of politicians and even personal encounter with Germans. Did you watch the clip of Merkel removing the german flag? Or when Siggi Gabriel insulted protestors calling them pack? The Jan Bönnerman song who was a former Antifa thugs and now a star in german public TV (the song with lyrics "we are proud of not be proud")

    Even when you read the german media outlets when they report about stuff not related to politics they tend to make a freudian slip. For instance when reporting about a car incident they would instantly put a sentence in reference to the Nazi past. Your journalist are often distorting facts and to much focused about a supposed far-right threar yet at the same time Germany is having a rape epidemic from newly arrived refugees and the media are downplaying it or ignore it.

    Also waving a german flag on streets is a taboo in your country. And do not get me to speak what reactions I saw from ordinary Germans.

    Your next paragraph prooves me I am right.

    The fact that patriotism is bad was not taught, it's simple deduction. Patriotism leads to nationalists, nationalism leads to irrational, aggressive behaviour, and that leads to suffering or loss of welfare. It can be observed in any history book (not just related to Germany) and in many states all over the world right now.
    Bull fuc.king sh.it. A poster already replied very well.

    You really need to stop acting like you're an expert for Germany, you know nothing.
    I would not call myself an expert but certainly I am very familiar with German politics even more than in british politics. Being subscribed on a german political forums gives me a lot infornation.

    Also supposedly Farage will become a german citizen. I hope he will found a GIP party there and pull the same like in the UK.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    TitanicTeutonicPhil's hysterical anger is the age-old expression of the age-old German inferiority complex with respect to Britain. If he really thought we were losing out by Brexit he would be condescending, not angry.
    To be fair I starting to doubt he is a Poe.

    Anyway somebody mentioned here the recent Armenian genocide vote from Germany. It is one more example of german autocratic self hate.

    In the resolution the parliament declared the German gov from 1914 as responsible for it because Germany was allied with the Ottoman.goverbment.

    That is ludocris and hystorical revisionism as Germany had 0 influence on the Ottomans.

    In modern standards that would be as that UK is to blame for Guantanamo bay because it is allied with the US.
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    (Original post by TitanicTeutonicPhil)
    It's a game of trade-offs and compromises. Every big EU country has that problem. The UK just wasn't good at this, given its confrontational and aggressive demeanor in Brussels.



    I don't know how you define success, but I think you'll be lucky if you ever get back to the level of wealth that you have now.



    The thing is though, it's not really going downhill. It's only been the British who have caused unrest and uncertainty, and now that you lot are out, we can regroup and drive the project forward. Greece has been saved, the southern countries are stable, and all remaining member states are committed to the European idea.



    Actually, no.
    So a recent poll saying 2/3 of Germans want Merkel out means she won't be out? Or do you think she's the saviour of Germany?

    She's destroying German identity, allowing the police to cover up migrant brutality against natives, the Turks that have come over to Germany refuse to integrate, enjoy the Germany you know now before Turkey claims it for itself. It'll be the new Islamic Republic of the EU.
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    (Original post by slaven)
    To be fair I starting to doubt he is a Poe.
    I am not sure what that means.

    I will be fair and say that patriotism is natural and healthy, even nationalism by some definitions, and people really need these feelings. Germany has been denied a healthy patriotism, and although there were good reasons for doing that, Germany has now projected an ersatz patriotism onto the EU. Phil is reacting badly to "his country" being broken apart. That it never was his country in the first place doesn't seem to register with him.

    I tend to agree with you that a lot of these problems would be solved if Germany could have a healthy internal patriotism for a reasonable country like the Kaiserreich.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Except it's not. Like it or not (and I can guess which way you're going to go on that) there are plenty of people with genuine grievances against things the EU is doing / not doing, as well as a growing belief in the rest of Europe that the EU in its current format is not fit for purpose.
    There are people with genuine grievances. Then there are lots of people with grievances about things they have been told are wrong with the EU, which are actually imaginary or made up, for example, by people like Boris Johnson, who was charged by the Telegraph with fabricating a new hate story about the EU every week for 10 years, which he duly did and which in nearly all cases, were false.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    I am not sure what that means.

    I will be fair and say that patriotism is natural and healthy, even nationalism by some definitions, and people really need these feelings. Germany has been denied a healthy patriotism, and although there were good reasons for doing that, Germany has now projected an ersatz patriotism onto the EU. Phil is reacting badly to "his country" being broken apart. That it never was his country in the first place doesn't seem to register with him.

    I tend to agree with you that a lot of these problems would be solved if Germany could have a healthy internal patriotism for a reasonable country like the Kaiserreich.
    Despite constant attempts to restart it, the truth is that the old nationalisms (which you call 'patriotism') are gradually but markedly fading away in many parts of the world. Governments strive to keep nationalism going in many areas because it suits their ruling classes to do so, but it ain't working - the forces of globalism, particularly global media, the internet and travel, are combining to make it harder and harder to maintain petty nationalism as a real, believable part of people's lives. The global middle class especially no longer accepts it. This can be seen in all developed and many emerging economies.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Despite constant attempts to restart it, the truth is that the old nationalisms (which you call 'patriotism') are gradually but markedly fading away in many parts of the world. Governments strive to keep nationalism going in many areas because it suits their ruling classes to do so, but it ain't working - the forces of globalism, particularly global media, the internet and travel, are combining to make it harder and harder to maintain petty nationalism as a real, believable part of people's lives. The global middle class especially no longer accepts it. This can be seen in all developed and many emerging economies.







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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Despite constant attempts to restart it, the truth is that the old nationalisms (which you call 'patriotism') are gradually but markedly fading away in many parts of the world. Governments strive to keep nationalism going in many areas because it suits their ruling classes to do so, but it ain't working - the forces of globalism, particularly global media, the internet and travel, are combining to make it harder and harder to maintain petty nationalism as a real, believable part of people's lives. The global middle class especially no longer accepts it. This can be seen in all developed and many emerging economies.
    Pro-Europeanism is a nationalism. Globalism is a nationalism.

    What you are saying has some truth but it would be more accurate to say that the Western middle class is changing its allegiance, just as loyalists to Sardinia-Piedmont changed their allegiance to Italy or Prussians changed their allegiance to Germany.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    Pro-Europeanism is a nationalism. Globalism is a nationalism.

    What you are saying has some truth but it would be more accurate to say that the Western middle class is changing its allegiance, just as loyalists to Sardinia-Piedmont changed their allegiance to Italy or Prussians changed their allegiance to Germany.
    I do tend to think it's been a mistake for the EU advocates to try to replace the old historic nationalisms with a 'new European nationalism', which they often have tried - this may play well some of the time, but it also heaps up masses of trouble, as for example we see with the resurgence of regionalist (eg, older, pre-modern nationalisms) coming to the fore in many countries - not least Britain. The other negative consequence is that it is virtually impossible to tie together the old national structures with an overarching state - as we see in the ongoing financial crisis, where German national structures are incompatible with attempts by the EU to properly centralise fiscal policy and have the ECB take over. There isn't a genuine, underlying 'EU nationalism' in that phony way - what there is, and could be, is an intelligent understanding of the need to share sovereignty at that level. The drive for a fake federalist new 'supernationalist' Europe has been at the heart of the crisis for the last 30 years or so and is seriously mistaken. We are probably agreed on that. At the same time it is also true that nationalism is in decline generally. People are reaching back to their roots to replace state nationalism with something deeper, but they are also yearning for wider global solutions, genuine ones, not corporate ones.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I do tend to think it's been a mistake for the EU advocates to try to replace the old historic nationalisms with a 'new European nationalism', which they often have tried - this may play well some of the time, but it also heaps up masses of trouble, as for example we see with the resurgence of regionalist (eg, older, pre-modern nationalisms) coming to the fore in many countries - not least Britain. The other negative consequence is that it is virtually impossible to tie together the old national structures with an overarching state - as we see in the ongoing financial crisis, where German national structures are incompatible with attempts by the EU to properly centralise fiscal policy and have the ECB take over. There isn't a genuine, underlying 'EU nationalism' in that phony way - what there is, and could be, is an intelligent understanding of the need to share sovereignty at that level. The drive for a fake federalist new 'supernationalist' Europe has been at the heart of the crisis for the last 30 years or so and is seriously mistaken. We are probably agreed on that. At the same time it is also true that nationalism is in decline generally. People are reaching back to their roots to replace state nationalism with something deeper, but they are also yearning for wider global solutions, genuine ones, not corporate ones.
    A nation is a group of people who consent to be governed together.

    Ruling a non-national empire is terribly expensive and often bloody. Of course the EU wants to be a nation.

    Global nationalism is rooted in Christian universalism. One problem is a lot of people in this world ain't Christians. Another problem is that having only one state and one religion for the whole world would be tremendously dangerous.
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    (Original post by Observatory)
    A nation is a group of people who consent to be governed together.

    Ruling a non-national empire is terribly expensive and often bloody. Of course the EU wants to be a nation.

    Global nationalism is rooted in Christian universalism. One problem is a lot of people in this world ain't Christians. Another problem is that having only one state and one religion for the whole world would be tremendously dangerous.
    I think a wider global awareness and desire for cooperation has solidified which is not specifically Christian - despite, for example, the petty minded tendency of religious extremists in various parts of the world to try to turn the clock back to the middle ages, most people reject that sooner or later and want internationalism.

    Consent wasn't always part of nationalism. Most of the modern European states, including the UK, were constructed by the victor of wars. Even the US is such a country. The idea of consent is a fairly recent one.
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    The only thing that is embarrassing Teuton, is you, with your total arrogance and myopia, and how you are so far behind the political curve and people's rightful disdain for this institution and the political classes that have shown them so much of it.
    You baselessly smear people as racists. You exhibit total unquestioning self-satisfaction about the EU's vast problems, ignorant even of what went on with the Lisbon treaty, which are ignored when pointed out to you. You respond with autocratic, arrogant high handedness that everyone needs to get with it, that the Italians are 'daft but won't be as daft as Brexiters' to leave the Euro, and that we are all, all of us, mouth breathing knuckle dragging xenophobes. You are a one person advert for why European peoples are rejecting the EU. The attempt to portray it as a few total bigots is laughable.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I think a wider global awareness and desire for cooperation has solidified which is not specifically Christian - despite, for example, the petty minded tendency of religious extremists in various parts of the world to try to turn the clock back to the middle ages, most people reject that sooner or later and want internationalism.
    I don't think that is true.

    China is not interested in being part of a global community that doesn't have China in the centre.

    The Muslims have their own legal theory that can't legitimise the social democratic state. Of course Muslims are themselves globalists - but their globalism is incompatible with Christian globalism.

    Russia looks like it is inventing a new state religion.

    Consent wasn't always part of nationalism. Most of the modern European states, including the UK, were constructed by the victor of wars. Even the US is such a country. The idea of consent is a fairly recent one.
    That is slightly tendentious. National states often evolved from non-national empires. And a European nation may well evolve from the non-national European Union empire.

    However, the cores of Britain and France are very similar linguistically, historically, and genetically. There is much more to them than historical chance. The fringes are less similar but they also have persistent nationalist movements that are not obviously fading away. There is more internal nationalism in the UK than there was in 1950.
 
 
 
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