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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    When you tell someone you’re taking Philosophy, you often get the impression the person you’re talking to (especially, it must be said, if they’re a STEM Nazi) doesn’t know what the subject actually is, and assumes it’s just sitting (mainly in the reclined position) considering the meaning of stuff in a whimsical way. Oh the ignorance. So I’ve decided to give some reasons why Philosophy should be (and is, by employers and those who know), considered one of the most prestigious, challenging and rewarding subjects out there (yes, right up there with medicine, physics, law and maths):

    1) In terms of skill in logical thought and precision, Philosophy matches any science or quantitative subject. Formal Logic notation is notorious for its complexity, and on Oxford’s website, in the description of the Logic unit, it warns that even students who took Further Maths A Level ‘will struggle’.

    2) At the same time, it hones writing, argumentative and analytical skills to the same extent as any other humanities subject, like History or English Literature. Hence combining the best aspects of the arts with the sciences.

    3) It involves the study of, quite simply, the greatest minds to have ever walked the Earth. While Geography students are off learning about rates of coastal erosion on the Norfolk coastline, you’re learning about the intricacies of the work of Aristotle, Plato, Hobbes, Locke, Rousseau, Descartes, Nietzsche, Sartre, Hume, Socrates, Machiavelli, Aquinas, Augustine, Voltaire, Kant, Camus, Russell, Mill, Epicurus, Confucius and so many more. Philosophy's scope means it's near impossible not to find deep interest somewhere.

    4) Philosophy is the original and oldest subject. There’s a reason Newton named his work ‘Mathematical Principles of Natural Philosophy’. Science (formerly Natural Philosophy) is a child of Philosophy, and simply cannot function without it. Every day, budding young scientists carry out their investigations, all the while oblivious to the fact that they rely on the work of philosophers like Thomas Kuhn, Karl Popper and Francis Bacon to do so.

    5) Employers know that the soft skills many science students lack can be found in a Philosophy student. The subject is best done as a verbal process or through structured verbal argument, thus perfecting your communication, debating and verbal reasoning skills. Spend time studying syllogisms and analytic philosophy and, in all likelihood, you will be the most ferocious debater for miles around. If you want, training in philosophical reasoning can allow you to dominate your philosophically illiterate opponents (which, sadly, will be most of them).

    6) Philosophy has shaped our world more than any other subject. From every war begun in the name of a particular philosophy of religion, to every revolution caused by a philosophy of politics, to every scientific invention born of philosophy of science, Philosophy is there, in the background, always.

    Thanks for reading this; I’d be happy to have a discussion below. I leave you with my personal favourite Plato quotation:

    “There will be no end to the troubles of states, or of humanity itself, till philosophers become kings in this world, or till those we now call kings and rulers really and truly become philosophers, and political power and philosophy thus come into the same hands”.

    Here are some statistics from the USA for those people hardest to persuade:

    Source:
    http://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/b...19841346388353



    I do Philosophy and Ethics at A level and I love it! It is such an interesting and fascinating subject! The essays can be demanding but I think it should certainly be classed as a "core" or traditional subject as it teaches you so much in terms of academic skills!
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    (Original post by GeorgeB16)
    I do Philosophy and Ethics at A level and I love it! It is such an interesting and fascinating subject! The essays can be demanding but I think it should certainly be classed as a "core" or traditional subject as it teaches you so much in terms of academic skills!
    I think philosophy should be classed as a core subject ONLY IF applied golf management studies is classed as a core subject also.
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    I think philosophy should be classed as a core subject ONLY IF applied golf management studies is classed as a core subject also.
    So much prejudice rolled up into a neat little bundle. Lots of people, even those arguing with me, agree that every student benefits from at least some Philosophy. Heck, Oxford seem to combine it with any course they can. So, in this sense, yes, it's a core subject.

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    I couldn't love the first post/thread starter anymore.


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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    So much prejudice rolled up into a neat little bundle. Lots of people, even those arguing with me, agree that every student benefits from at least some Philosophy. Heck, Oxford seem to combine it with any course they can. So, in this sense, yes, it's a core subject.

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    Dear lord... my taxes are going to be paying for your working tax credits, aren't they?
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    My great granddad did a doctorate in this, apparently studying it in one year at Liverpool uni. I think he was called Foo kong liu
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    Dear lord... my taxes are going to be paying for your working tax credits, aren't they?
    I can safely say that any Philosophy graduate from a good institution is perfectly capable of out-earning you. But I'm thankful that political philosophy has brought us to a society where those who actually are struggling are properly protected by your tax credits.

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    legend has it that all those Big Issue people in Oxford did philosophy there...
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    I can safely say that any Philosophy graduate from a good institution is perfectly capable of out-earning you.

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    You spelt 'working at McDonalds' wrong.
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    You spelt 'working at McDonalds' wrong.
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    Ah, it took a while but we got there in the end guys

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Ah, it took a while but we got there in the end guys

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    Ah, but is it the beginning of the end or the end of the beginning?

    There you go, that'll get you another 'A' for a philosophy exam.

    Hey, I'm beginning to think I could be a philosophy instructor. I'll just spout off more of the above:
    i) If you do not master your rage, your rage will become your master.
    ii) When you care what is outside, what is inside cares for you.
    iii) To go left, you must first go right.

    See, easy. Socrates would be jealous.
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Alright,

    Firstly, if you read what I write, not once have I suggested Philosophy is the only degree requiring precision and logical reasoning. I mean, not once. If you want to be taken seriously, perhaps don't make things up. I've even said many times that Science is extremely challenging and important, and that I consider Physics and Philosophy the best degree. Why didn't you read that before having a go at me?

    As for job prospects, did you not read my opening post? There's a whole point addressing perceived job prospects. As I and others have pointed out, the jobs that are made acccessible by a Philosophy degree are many and varied, ranging from management consultancy to law, teaching to investment banking and marketing to computer programming. Again, I'm forced to ask, did you read any of this?

    I have said many times that other humanities are excellent also, as are sciences. I even said 'degrees are what you make of them'. Does this sound like belittling other degrees to you?

    My point about complexity of reasoning was that Philosophy requires the use of formal logic notation, which, in my opinion, is reason to believe it is elevated in this regard above subjects which do not, like English. Is this an objective measure? No. Does it make English any less valuable? No. Nothing I'm saying is especially controversial here.

    Source:
    http://www.physicscentral.com/buzz/b...19841346388353



    Also check out:
    http://www.naceweb.org/s02242016/top...ates-2016.aspx
    There is a selection bias there. Those attracted to philosophy are generally bright and curious students, interested in pursuing a subject for the intellectual stimulation rather than it's career prospects. Similarly to physics (who have the highest sat scores before going into university) we can't measure the significance of the subject when the student pool is also of a higher standard generally than in other subjects like nursing or accounting.
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    (Original post by Athematica)
    There is a selection bias there. Those attracted to philosophy are generally bright and curious students, interested in pursuing a subject for the intellectual stimulation rather than it's career prospects. Similarly to physics (who have the highest sat scores before going into university) we can't measure the significance of the subject when the student pool is also of a higher standard generally than in other subjects like nursing or accounting.
    I see what you're saying, but, frankly, for my purposes, evidence that Philosophy students are very intelligent will do. In this sense, the 'selection bias' is my evidence. The data shows that people who are exposed to philosophy, and study, or want to study, philosophy are clever. This is what I wanted to show.

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    I see what you're saying, but, frankly, for my purposes, evidence that Philosophy students are very intelligent will do. In this sense, the 'selection bias' is my evidence. The data shows that people who are exposed to philosophy, and study, or want to study, philosophy are clever. This is what I wanted to show.

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    My understanding is that you wished to prove that philosophy is a worthwhile pursuit, apart from other subjects in rigour, and that doesn't seem to be demonstrated in your argument, no. People are drawn to the grandeur of physics and philosophy and a lot of those people are smart but in the quote above with the charts you argue about the merits of academic philosophical exposure being superior in some senses and I refute that you don't actually do what you set out.

    We see a moving of goalposts here
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    (Original post by Athematica)
    My understanding is that you wished to prove that philosophy is a worthwhile pursuit, apart from other subjects in rigour, and that doesn't seem to be demonstrated in your argument, no. People are drawn to the grandeur of physics and philosophy and a lot of those people are smart but in the quote above with the charts you argue about the merits of academic philosophical exposure being superior in some senses and I refute that you don't actually do what you set out.

    We see a moving of goalposts here
    It's true these stats don't necessarily indicate that philosophy itself produces better students. But it does do two things: firstly, it undermines the nonsense spouted by some that philosophy isn't for intelligent individuals, and, secondly, the fact that the most intelligent students see philosophy as worthwhile of their skill must speak well for the subject - these probably are studebts interested in furthering their intellectual ability. I'm personally pretty pleased with these conclusions.

    I'll look for some other data for philosophy university students while doing their course. If I can find that would that be enough to show the superiority of philosophical exposure in your eyes?

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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    I think philosophy should be classed as a core subject ONLY IF applied golf management studies is classed as a core subject also.
    I believe all systematic knowledge came from philosophy in the first place. Think of it, Newton ASKED why the apple fell before his scientific quest. Scientists used to be called natural philosophers in the old days. And it's not just science. We have Mill who argued for liberty, we have philosophers who defined justice and shaped our legal system.
    I don't think you know much about what philosophy is with all politeness and respect.
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    (Original post by TrotskyiteRebel)
    I believe all systematic knowledge came from philosophy in the first place. Think of it, Newton ASKED why the apple fell before his scientific quest. Scientists used to be called natural philosophers in the old days. And it's not just science. We have Mill who argued for liberty, we have philosophers who defined justice and shaped our legal system.
    I don't think you know much about what philosophy is with all politeness and respect.
    Great. I love playing the, 'Let's twist history to suit our own narrative' game.
    Technically, during the early stages of our evolution, the eating of meat allowed our brains to grow and expand (nutritional science).

    Later the invention of fire (technologists) allowed the quicker ingestion of meat and helped further improve our intelligence, which in turn, allowed us the ability to ask questions such as 'why', and thus led eventaully to philosophy.

    So that's the S and T of STEM. I'm sure I could think of the E and M but i'll leave that to fellow STEM academics.

    So with all politeness and respect, I have to ask...
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    Do you even brain?
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    (Original post by !!mentor!!)
    Great. I love playing the, 'Let's twist history to suit our own narrative' game.
    Technically, during the early stages of our evolution, the eating of meat allowed our brains to grow and expand (nutritional science).

    Later the invention of fire (technologists) allowed the quicker ingestion of meat and helped further improve our intelligence, which in turn, allowed us the ability to ask questions such as 'why', and thus led eventaully to philosophy.

    So that's the S and T of STEM. I'm sure I could think of the E and M but i'll leave that to fellow STEM academics.

    So with all politeness and respect, I have to ask...
    Spoiler:
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    Do you even brain?
    Are you serious or you just trolling around? I said systematic knowledge: knowledge acquired through systematic enquiry. I think your response is a non-sequitor and this brings us to the next reason why philosophy matters. It's the art of thinking, of asking the right question and answering them. You don't seem to have that, you NEED philosophy. Start with Sophie's World (please don't be offended guys I just think that's a good place for someone at this level to start from).
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    (Original post by TrotskyiteRebel)
    Are you serious or you just trolling around? I said systematic knowledge: knowledge acquired through systematic enquiry. I think your response is a non-sequitor and this brings us to the next reason why philosophy matters. It's the art of thinking, of asking the right question and answering them. You don't seem to have that, you NEED philosophy. Start with Sophie's World (please don't be offended guys I just think that's a good place for someone at this level to start from).
    Every subject can claim that it requires the art of thinking, asking the right questions etc etc. Philosophy is not even close to being unique in those areas. This is exactly the reason why whilst us STEM-inators make the world go round, you people live in your own bubble thinking up stupid ideas like, "Life is like a star-spackled unicorn because of inside out potatoes. Think about it".

    "Oh wow. That's so deep and meaning and explains the soul. Blah, blah."

    And philosophy needed STEM in order to come into fruition.

    STEM FTW.
 
 
 
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