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British woman stabbed to death by knifeman ‘chanting Allahu Akbar’ Watch

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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    Everyone on this planet loses family members for one reason or another but do we all become cleaver/ knife wielding maniacs? No. The problem is with Islam
    quite clearly its because there is an Islamist militant group, with extremely manipulative social media reaches, that has the capacity to draw in Muslims and make their hateful feelings legitimate, and concentrate them on their victims

    the problem is ISIS and hatred, ISIS legitimise this hate, and whinging about how Islam is misogynistic or crying about mohamed being a pedo won't make ISIS disappear.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    It's not about the number of people killed, its about wanting to enforce political aims as a result of invoking violence to people or property. Its clear that stabbing a random person isn't trying to accomplish this, otherwise they would have vocalised their intentions, or the investigation thus far would have found a link to Islamic terrorism or a terrorist group.
    as you should know, there is no universally accepted, set-in stone-definition of terrorism. Most notably, the UN has not been able to reach such a definition,
    However, if we take the UN Draft comprehensive convention against international terrorism, we find that https://www.ilsa.org/jessup/jessup08...nterrorism.pdf

    1.Any person commits an offence within the meaning of the present Convention if that person, by any means, unlawfully and intentionally, causes:
    (a) Death or serious bodily injury to any person; or
    (b) Serious damage to public or private property, including a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system, an infrastructure facility or to the environment; or
    (c) Damage to property, places, facilities or systems referred to in paragraph 1 (b of the present article resulting or likely to result in major economic loss; when thepurpose of the conduct, by its nature or context, is to intimidate a population, or to compel a Government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act.
    (emphasis added)

    So, it would appear that the crucial element is if these stabbings, bombings etc are intended to intimidate the population, independently from the number of victims (1 or 1,000)

    As to the motivations, we could take UN Resolution1566 (2004) which states that "all acts which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic,religious or other similar nature" (emphasis added)

    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    And constantly whinging about me being an "Islamoapologetic" is not an argument, nor does it reinforce your pre-existing argument.
    well, you are constantly whinging about "islamophobes", so I'll whinge about "islamoapologetics"

    what's good for the goose, is good for the gander

    best
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    quite clearly its because there is an Islamist militant group, with extremely manipulative social media reaches, that has the capacity to draw in Muslims and make their hateful feelings legitimate, and concentrate them on their victims

    the problem is ISIS and hatred, ISIS legitimise this hate, and whinging about how Islam is misogynistic or crying about mohamed being a pedo won't make ISIS disappear.
    So ask yourself, why do these groups exist? I've already told you why - because they read these scriptures that endorse 'honour killings' of non-believers. If the religion didn't teach this kind of thing, these groups wouldn't exist. It really is that simple. Same reason you don't see militant groups from any other religion.
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    This probably actually has nothing to do with Islam
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    as you should know, there is no universally accepted, set-in stone-definition of terrorism. Most notably, the UN has not been able to reach such a definition,
    However, if we take the UN Draft comprehensive convention against international terrorism, we find that https://www.ilsa.org/jessup/jessup08...nterrorism.pdf

    1.Any person commits an offence within the meaning of the present Convention if that person, by any means, unlawfully and intentionally, causes:
    (a) Death or serious bodily injury to any person; or
    (b) Serious damage to public or private property, including a place of public use, a State or government facility, a public transportation system, an infrastructure facility or to the environment; or
    (c) Damage to property, places, facilities or systems referred to in paragraph 1 (b of the present article resulting or likely to result in major economic loss; when thepurpose of the conduct, by its nature or context, is to intimidate a population, or to compel a Government or an international organization to do or to abstain from doing any act. (emphasis added)

    So, it would appear that the crucial element is if these stabbings, bombings etc are intended to intimidate the population, independently from the number of victims (1 or 1,000)

    As to the motivations, we could take UN Resolution1566 (2004) which states that "all acts which constitute offences within the scope of and as defined in the international conventions and protocols relating to terrorism, are under no circumstances justifiable by considerations of a political, philosophical, ideological, racial, ethnic,religious or other similar nature" (emphasis added)

    well, you are constantly whinging about "islamophobes", so I'll whinge about "islamoapologetics"

    what's good for the goose, is good for the gander

    best
    You did not explain how stabbing one person is supposed to intimidate the population of Australia to submit to extremist Islam.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    perhaps you've been ignoring the rise in hate crimes and racial abuse since the Brexit vote

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk...-a7104191.html
    The level of reporting has certainly risen, but the numbers are still pretty low. And TellMAMA include a lot under "hate crime". One recorded act of "anti-Muslim bigotry" was a sign saying "Halal is barbaric". This is arguable, as traditional halal slaughter requires the animal to be fully conscious while it bleeds to death. I would call that barbaric, wouldn't you?

    I wouldn't take the claims of a partisan group with a vested interest too seriously without knowing the details of each case.

    Edit: The article isn't the one I thought it was, but my point still stands in the context of this discussion. Berxit doesn't really have much to do with Islamist attacks and their reoercussions.
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    quite clearly its because there is an Islamist militant group, with extremely manipulative social media reaches, that has the capacity to draw in Muslims and make their hateful feelings legitimate, and concentrate them on their victims

    the problem is ISIS and hatred, ISIS legitimise this hate, and whinging about how Islam is misogynistic or crying about mohamed being a pedo won't make ISIS disappear.
    That hatred wouldn't be there in the first place though if there wasn't a valid basis for it in the Qu'ran. The hatred of ISIS comes from the Qu'ran itself, they quite clearly believe that they have a spiritual and theological reason to do the things that they do. All human beings have the capacity to experience hatred and anger yet you don't see buddhists and hindu's forming terror groups and doing what ISIS and their ilk do, do you?

    Nobody is crying about Mohammed being a pedo, he objectively was a paedophile and the Qu'ran is undoubtedly misogynistic and in some cases a little racist. These are cold, hard facts
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    So ask yourself, why do these groups exist? I've already told you why - because they read these scriptures that endorse 'honour killings' of non-believers. If the religion didn't teach this kind of thing, these groups wouldn't exist. It really is that simple. Same reason you don't see militant groups from any other religion.
    I explained why they exist.

    ISIS exists because there is a chaotic 5-way proxy war in Syria, with a brutal regime and rebels who are sometimes equally as brutal. This chaos has lead to a 5 year war in Syria. The average powerless Muslim who is witnessing this war, witnessing people dying, witnessing western bombers kill innocent people alongside their targets, these people become hateful and become radicalised and more predisposed towards violence. ISIS is simply a collection of these people working together. This group, with its vast reaches on social media, provides a legitimate voice to western Muslims who have had enough of their hateful feelings and want to act upon them.

    If Christianity were the main religion in these areas, I have no doubt that we should see extremist Christians, with Christian patrols who go around killing anyone who works on a Sunday or anyone who insults their parents, with crucifixions in public and armed militant groups going around discriminating against other religions.
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    (Original post by AngryRedhead)
    That hatred wouldn't be there in the first place though if there wasn't a valid basis for it in the Qu'ran. The hatred of ISIS comes from the Qu'ran itself, they quite clearly believe that they have a spiritual and theological reason to do the things that they do. All human beings have the capacity to experience hatred and anger yet you don't see buddhists and hindu's forming terror groups and doing what ISIS and their ilk do, do you?

    Nobody is crying about Mohammed being a pedo, he objectively was a paedophile and the Qu'ran is undoubtedly misogynistic and in some cases a little racist. These are cold, hard facts
    This is a simple lie. The hatred I am talking about derives from peoples' lives being turned upside down by conflict, by war, by political oppression, by political instability, by failed western foreign policy, by losing family members, by being persecuted because of religion.

    The hatred would be there without the Quran.

    And evidently yelling 'hard, cold facts' in a pompous, bigoted manner hasn't helped, has it?
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    You did not explain how stabbing one person is supposed to intimidate the population of Australia to submit to extremist Islam.
    you have not explained how you have jumped to the conclusion that this crime is not of a terrorist nature, why it has not an Islamic character and why it should not intimidate Australians

    random knife attacks can of course intimidate people
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    This is a simple lie. The hatred I am talking about derives from peoples' lives being turned upside down by conflict, by war, by political oppression, by political instability, by failed western foreign policy, by losing family members, by being persecuted because of religion
    there are always tons of motivations and justifications available for crimes

    but the main responsibility always lies in those who commit them . Less directly, on the ideology which inspires them

    as simple as that

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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    This probably actually has nothing to do with Islam
    let's wait for more info

    but why should we exclude an Islamic jihadist motivation ?
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    I explained why they exist.

    ISIS exists because there is a chaotic 5-way proxy war in Syria, with a brutal regime and rebels who are sometimes equally as brutal. This chaos has lead to a 5 year war in Syria. The average powerless Muslim who is witnessing this war, witnessing people dying, witnessing western bombers kill innocent people alongside their targets, these people become hateful and become radicalised and more predisposed towards violence. ISIS is simply a collection of these people working together. This group, with its vast reaches on social media, provides a legitimate voice to western Muslims who have had enough of their hateful feelings and want to act upon them.

    If Christianity were the main religion in these areas, I have no doubt that we should see extremist Christians, with Christian patrols who go around killing anyone who works on a Sunday or anyone who insults their parents, with crucifixions in public and armed militant groups going around discriminating against other religions.
    We weren't just discussing ISIS, we were discussing Islam as a whole. A lot of the people doing these 'honour killings' have lived in a different country since they were young and grew up in a civilised society.

    Also, there ARE many Christians living in places of civil unrest. You don't see them getting involved in violence and don't hear of radical Christians killing in the name of God. The religion actively discourages it - in fact, the scriptures more or less say, if you are murdered because of your religion, and you didn't instigate violence, you will be blessed in heaven - conversely, anyone that is involved in acts of violence is going against the will of God. Whereas, the quran teaches its people to fight and kill in the name of Allah.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    you have not explained how you have jumped to the conclusion that this crime is not of a terrorist nature, why it has not an Islamic character and why it should not intimidate Australians

    random knife attacks can of course intimidate people
    Because stabbing someone isn't trying to enforce political views onto anyone, is it? They didn't vocalise any intentions to keep Australia from bombing ISIS, or any intentions to establish a caliphate or something in Australia, or anything like that.
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    (Original post by WoodyMKC)
    We weren't just discussing ISIS, we were discussing Islam as a whole. A lot of the people doing these 'honour killings' have lived in a different country since they were young and grew up in a civilised society.

    Also, there ARE many Christians living in places of civil unrest. You don't see them getting involved in violence and don't hear of radical Christians killing in the name of God. The religion actively discourages it - in fact, the scriptures more or less say, if you are murdered because of your religion, and you didn't instigate violence, you will be blessed in heaven - conversely, anyone that is involved in acts of violence is going against the will of God. Whereas, the quran teaches its people to fight and kill in the name of Allah.
    ISIS is the prime case study.

    Nowhere where Christians live in mass is there a brutal regime which barrel bombs its own people, nor is there a war, nor are western politicians intervening with military force.

    Some minor civil unrest is not comparable to the terrible situation in the Middle East
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    let's wait for more info

    but why should we exclude an Islamic jihadist motivation ?
    Certaintly not excluding it but given what we do know, my betelgeuse senses are tingling non Islam.

    I don't think its probable a French muslim who enjoys travelling and backpacking and choosing to live with 20-30 people in a hostel whilst picking fruit on a farm in Australia was radical or devout about his religion.

    Early guess would be some jealousy / domestic dispute
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    Because stabbing someone isn't trying to enforce political views onto anyone, is it? They didn't vocalise any intentions to keep Australia from bombing ISIS, or any intentions to establish a caliphate or something in Australia, or anything like that.
    again, you are jumping to conclusions in order to exonerate Islam from any responsibility

    why don't you wait to know more ?

    and yes, this kind of stabbing episodes do intimidate people . As to the motivations for this particular episode, let's wait
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    (Original post by Betelgeuse-)
    Certaintly not excluding it but given what we do know, my betelgeuse senses are tingling non Islam.

    I don't think its probable a French muslim who enjoys travelling and backpacking and choosing to live with 20-30 people in a hostel whilst picking fruit on a farm in Australia was radical or devout about his religion.

    Early guess would be some jealousy / domestic dispute
    we simply don't know (at least, I don't)

    best
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    again, you are jumping to conclusions in order to exonerate Islam from any responsibility

    why don't you wait to know more ?

    and yes, this kind of stabbing episodes do intimidate people . As to the motivations for this particular episode, let's wait
    Islam is responsible to an extent, but its not worth criticising. How many Muslims do you think have been swayed by the constructive criticisms akin to "Mohammed was a pedo!!!" or "religion of peace again" or "get these dirty Muslims out of our country"?

    These stabbings do not attempt to invoke any political ambitions. They just kill because they are hateful. Even if they did it because of extremist views, its not a terrorist attack.
    Look up a list of Islamic terror attacks, do you think its a coincidence that wikipedia has not included many of the mass stabbings, akin to, or far worse than this??
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    (Original post by alevelstresss)
    This is a simple lie. The hatred I am talking about derives from peoples' lives being turned upside down by conflict, by war, by political oppression, by political instability, by failed western foreign policy, by losing family members, by being persecuted because of religion.

    The hatred would be there without the Quran.

    And evidently yelling 'hard, cold facts' in a pompous, bigoted manner hasn't helped, has it?
    Because denying that the Qu'ran plays a part in this has helped too, hasn't it? :rolleyes:

    How can you be so blind? Other parts of the globe have experienced conflict, war, political oppression etc yet I've yet to see North Koreans forming terrorist groups en masse. If muslims are persecuting each other and other faiths it is because it's in the Qu'ran to do so. I don't understand how you can not see that?
 
 
 
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