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Obese patients and smokers banned from routine surgery with the NHS Watch

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    (Original post by Dandaman1)
    A step in the right direction. The taxpayer shouldn't have to pay for people's bad habits and poor lifestyle choices.

    People should be paying for more of their own healthcare and taking more responsibility for themselves.
    If you actually made everyone only individually accountable for their own health problems then I guess you'd be referring to private insurance without risk pooling. In these circumstances, the irony is whilst you have greater autonomy, since you're only responsible for your health, each claim would result in an astronomically high premium. Now just try to imagine some of the consequences of that.

    There is a reason we pay in nationally to protect against these types of situations.
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    the problem is, it's easy to say that every obese person is that way through poor eating choices - but there are those people who have glandular issues, or things like pcos, that can make it harder to lose weight. I fear that people who genuinely have it harder could be ignored here...

    I also think people would be more offended if the nhs refused to treat girls with anorexia or bulimia until they reach a healthy bmi, and seeing as they're all eating disorders... Etc.

    I don't like it, and i mostly just hate the fact that money is so tight the nhs has to operate like this, and there are still people complaining about tax. It's sad, i think....
    thank you so much for this
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    (Original post by Mathemagicien)
    I wasn't even being entirely serious... anyway, doesn't your research actually show its a good idea?
    Well cannabis use is associated with lower BMI.

    http://www.readcube.com/articles/10.1002/oby.20973?r3
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    Although I don't claim to know huge amounts on the subject, this could potentially be a huge benefit to the NHS, in the long term. But it would put quite a lot of people at risk in the meantime.

    Then NHS obviously has a huge funding problem at the moment with not enough doctors to treat people and less money for treatments in general. To my knowledge obesity and smoking being two large areas of spending for the NHS would radically help other areas. Not only that, but this could potentially act as a bit of a preventative measure, forcing people to think twice about their health at the risk of their health care being lost, further decreasing the pressure on NHS budgets in the future as less people are smoking/obese.

    Obviously it would create quality of life problems for the people included in the ban throughout the year. However - assuming it only affects people with obesity not caused by other health issues - the 12 month waiting period could potentially get them off the list with prescribed dieting and physical therapy, both decreasing pressure on the joints and strengthening the muscles/reducing inflammation. Although, I'm no doctor so I can't say for sure how effective or possible this would be and this could arguably be more expensive. The article does however say that they can get on the list faster if they lose 10% of their body mass.

    If it were my choice, I'd get a new health secretary and then start contemplating this.
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    In the long run, this may cost the NHS more. Deny people their routine surgeries, and they'll be in the emergency room more often, which is a hell of a lot more expensive.
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    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    What virtually all the posters have ignored is that this scheme was dropped as soon as it became public because the lawyers quietly explained to the Health Authority that it was illegal.

    It is possible to restrict access to certain treatments on medical grounds ie the outcomes for particular operations are worse for smokers or obese people than non-smokers or non-obese people but that wasn't what was being done here. There was no evidence base considered by this Health Authority and why does any outcome problem miraculously go away with a 12 month delay irrespective of whether the patient has made a lifestyle change?

    Smoking and BMI were being used simply as a rationing technique and choosing those who smoke or those with a high BMI is no more rational and lawful than choosing Manchester City supporters or Audi drivers.
    Why would it be unlawful to ration NHS care preferentially to Manchester City supporters?
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    I hate this argument, it's such a minute percentage of obese people


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    Glandular issues, PCOS, athletes/bodybuilders/weightlifters... There is more than one reason for having a high BMI. On top of that you have differing metabolisms - some people can exercise the same amount, weigh the same, but one can eat 2500 calories a day and the other 1500 or less.

    Even if you are obese because you just simply eat too much, which is an eating disorder, do you support restricting NHS care to people with other eating disorders that cause them to have a poor BMI, such as anorexia, bulimia, etc?

    The truth is we tend to view anorexics as victims of poor mental health and the media, and obese people as simple gluttons, who could lose the weight if they just dieted. People tend not to say 'well she wouldn't be anorexic if she just ate more ' ... People are aware with anorexia that there is more than simply wanting to starve yourself. For many people with the condition, they simply don't feel hungry, dont have an appetite, or feel ill when they want to eat - it's not just girls starving themselves, in the same way that some obese people can just always feel hungry. Yet it is so much easier to say 'stop eating' than 'start eating'.

    This is why the policy is so discriminatory; if you want to take away access to healthcare for people with high BMI (on the assumption that they are not looking after their bodies adequately) then why not people with a BMI that is too low, also? Because that can also lead to other problems - organ failure, stomach ulcers, mental health issues, etc.

    Should we limit access to steroid abusers, drug users, injured athletes, etc. If you fall out of a tree and break your arm, shouldn't we just leave you to suffer? Why did you climb the tree in the first place? Taking it to the hyperbolic, of course, but where would this policy stop?
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    (Original post by 1010marina)
    The truth is we tend to view anorexics as victims of poor mental health and the media, and obese people as simple gluttons, who could lose the weight if they just dieted.
    Section the obese! :fuhrer:
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Tbh it's particularly harsh on smokers, they pay their fair share in taxes on tobacco for the demand they create.
    How is it particularly harsh? If anything, a person can have a BMI over 30 due to a number of factors such as a thyroid issue, a disability, a genetic condition and so on. But for smokers? It's a habit they choose to have (yes, many overweight people choose it too, but its a hell of a lot harder to lose weight than dropping smoking). I mean, should a smoker be allowed any sugery to do with throats or lungs if they activily ask for that problem? As it stands, both vices are bad, but smoking is just that little bit worse tbh.
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    If someone causes themselves to become ill through stupid choices like smoking and eating too much junk food they should pay for their own treatment. If someone's fat due to a diagnosed medical condition that's different because it's not their fault.
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    (Original post by MPH125)
    How is it particularly harsh? If anything, a person can have a BMI over 30 due to a number of factors such as a thyroid issue, a disability, a genetic condition and so on. But for smokers? It's a habit they choose to have (yes, many overweight people choose it too, but its a hell of a lot harder to lose weight than dropping smoking). I mean, should a smoker be allowed any sugery to do with throats or lungs if they activily ask for that problem? As it stands, both vices are bad, but smoking is just that little bit worse tbh.
    I'm not in favour of this at all(I made the first reply to the thread saying I though it was draconian) but when planning measures like this due to a lack of funding it doesn't register with me to target people who over contribute towards the system(which smokers do via taxes on tobacco). The fact that anyone is refused treatment isn't acceptable IMO.

    In terms of kicking either habit(which doesn't include people with medical reasons) that depends entirely on the person.
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    (Original post by Peroxidation)
    If someone causes themselves to become ill through stupid choices like smoking and eating too much junk food they should pay for their own treatment. If someone's fat due to a diagnosed medical condition that's different because it's not their fault.


    Nar mate, didn't do it on purpose, was doing a spot of naked hoovering and tripped.
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    (Original post by dingleberry jam)


    Nar mate, didn't do it on purpose, was doing a spot of naked hoovering and tripped.
    LMAO. What kind of idiot does that kind of thing?

    I'd expect her to pay for that treatment.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    Tbh it's particularly harsh on smokers, they pay their fair share in taxes on tobacco for the demand they create.
    its only you your killing, don't bring the rest of us down with you!
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    (Original post by DANIELREED)
    its only you your killing
    How?
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    How?
    When you smoke you are damaging your body and us descent people have to pay for you. Your feeble mind just cannot realise that you are the problem.
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    (Original post by DANIELREED)
    When you smoke you are damaging your body and us descent people have to pay for you. Your feeble mind just cannot realise that you are the problem.
    There's one slight problem with your analysis.

    Spoiler:
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    I don't smoke.
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    (Original post by JamesN88)
    There's one slight problem with your analysis.
    Spoiler:
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    I don't smoke.
    I'm no sure if you misunderstood my post. I was not necessarily talking to you but to smokers. However to think that those who cannot quit are not weak then you must be as unintelligent and lacking mental capacity as a they are.
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    (Original post by DANIELREED)
    I'm no sure if you misunderstood my post. I was not necessarily talking to you but to smokers. However to think that those who cannot quit are not weak then you must be as unintelligent and lacking mental capacity as a they are.
    You replied to me directly and said "your only killing yourself"(or something along those lines). Anyone with a reasonable level of intelligence wouldn't have done that if they were talking to smokers generally rather than to me individually.

    N.B. Before you question my mental capacity you should learn the difference between your and you're.
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    This is difficult because the NHS was formed to treat everyone with no bias or discrimination...

    My issue here is obesity (especially in severe cases) and smoking is totally self-inflicted in 99% of cases, but I do not think rationing their treatments is going to work. Instead we need to work harder to address the issue at the source and help these people lose weight or stop smoking in the first instance.
    I also think it would be better to get these people to try to give up smoking or lose weight for a good amount of time before surgery or treatment for their problems caused by their obesity/smoking (unless life threatening) is offerred so people will not see it as their "way back to health".
 
 
 
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