What a world without God means

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    I liked your post, well written and nice to read, but I'm afraid the question is very easy to answer for a theist. They can point to their judgement, at which everything they ever did is of great importance. They will be able to remember their life - so everything you achieve will stay with you. You truly benefit from the good things you did, and are rewarded more than the bad person. I could also point to the teaching that suicide is a sin - hence I should be doing everything I can to stay alive.

    But ask your question to an atheist, and they have no real answers. Why bother? If you stay alive for longer, you won't ever remember it, or benefit from it. When you die it all becomes completely pointless, and tou won't even know you existed, let alone if you were successful. All that effort for nothing. Now I'd be interested if you could answer that.

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    But I'm a theist so like you said, i do see the point to everything because I believe I would remember it, and your point about suicide is also true, what I'm still trying to work out is, is this opinion you have of life being pointless your actual opinion on life, or are you a theist who's asking atheists this question?
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    But I'm a theist so like you said, i do see the point to everything because I believe I would remember it, and your point about suicide is also true, what I'm still trying to work out is, is this opinion you have of life being pointless your actual opinion on life, or are you a theist who's asking atheists this question?
    I'm a theist but I like making atheists think a bit about what they're dealing with

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    I'm a theist but I like making atheists think a bit about what they're dealing with

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    Ahh fair enough. I thought that was your opinion that life is pointless and was just about to launch into a big motivational speech about finding your purpose in life and everything... Glad I haven't now haha.

    But seriously, it's a very interesting point you've made, but atheists don't think life is pointless even if they agree with everything else you say. Since they don't believe in God and therefore don't think that if they behave in a wrong way they'll be punished, they're free to do whatever the hell they want basically, so will go out and just live for the moment, i.e go out and get drunk. I mean, like i said to you, they're not going to sit and stare at the wall all day everyday because there's no point in enjoying anything, are they?
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    Ahh fair enough. I thought that was your opinion that life is pointless and was just about to launch into a big motivational speech about finding your purpose in life and everything... Glad I haven't now haha.

    But seriously, it's a very interesting point you've made, but atheists don't think life is pointless even if they agree with everything else you say. Since they don't believe in God and therefore don't think that if they behave in a wrong way they'll be punished, they're free to do whatever the hell they want basically, so will go out and just live for the moment, i.e go out and get drunk. I mean, like i said to you, they're not going to sit and stare at the wall all day everyday because there's no point in enjoying anything, are they?
    I dont get why people think atheism means life is meaningless.If anything it gives life more value and meaning.If you know you only have one life then every second counts,if you believe you will live forever then there is always tommorow or the day after that.Atheism gives life more meaning not less.
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    I dont get why people think atheism means life is meaningless.If anything it gives life more value and meaning.If you know you only have one life then every second counts,if you believe you will live forever then there is always tommorow or the day after that.Atheism gives life more meaning not less.
    What..? Of course you don't live forever. Theists believe how you live in this life determines how you live in the next. And they still believe that every second counts, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow and then you'll stop being you and could become someone or something worse in the next life, or go to Hell or whatever they believe. Life has different meanings between theists and atheists, but both meanings have equal importance.
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    What..? Of course you don't live forever. Theists believe how you live in this life determines how you live in the next. And they still believe that every second counts, you could get hit by a bus tomorrow and then you'll stop being you and could become someone or something worse in the next life, or go to Hell or whatever they believe. Life has different meanings between theists and atheists, but both meanings have equal importance.
    Christians do believe you will live forever. Of course they believe that you will die but then you have an afterlife spent in paradise in heaven.Its not really death in the same sense as an atheist because
    an atheist believes that this life is it.You cant be said to die really if you are then going to live forever in heaven.I thought my meaning was pretty clear.Death is a lot more final for an atheist than a theist.
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    (Original post by Robby2312)
    Christians do believe you will live forever. Of course they believe that you will die but then you have an afterlife spent in paradise in heaven.Its not really death in the same sense as an atheist because
    an atheist believes that this life is it.You cant be said to die really if you are then going to live forever in heaven.I thought my meaning was pretty clear.Death is a lot more final for an atheist than a theist.
    Some theists believe you spend the rest of eternity in paradise, but others believe you move on to another life where how you live determines how you lived in the previous life. That is not "living forever" though. Theists might believe they haven't done enough yet to be given a good afterlife or they might simply enjoy their life so they work on enjoying every second of it. So they'd still think that every second counts, just for a different reason than an atheist.
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    I have to say this notion of surviving beyond our physical deaths is terrifying. If there isn't a limited time to our existence then why do anything now? If living a pointless and sinless life means that every tear will be dried in the afterlife then I can't see the benefit of living any sort of meaningful life. Why not just stare at a wall your entire life if it ultimately leads to the same outcome? I work hard and try to make the lives of others better because I'm aware of just how brief our existence is. If it goes on forever why do anything now? I've got to say the very concept of permanent existence scares the hell out of me. Even if heaven were pure pleasure, it'd be like eating a delicious cake for infinity. In 'A History of the World in 10 and 1/2 Chapters' Julian Barnes posits the idea of a heaven inevitably becoming dull. People end up asking to have their souls destroyed as they cannot tolerate endlessness. I think I'd take the same route.

    I just feel that your life's purpose has no meaning if another infinite life comes after it. Why not just allow yourself to die of starvation in this life and then spend an eternity figuring out what makes you happy?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    Futile in that it achieves nothing of any value. You will end up the same whether you enjoyed life or not, you don't even get to remember whether you enjoyed life, your life has no purpose besides death (you can't change your future - it is completely out of your hands).
    Quick one as I can this thread is quite circular in it's logic.

    You suggest the absence of God means life has no ultimate purpose, which is understandable.

    However if God did exist...what ultimate purpose does it then have? It seems to me if Heaven/Hell existed all it changes is the fact Earth is now a temporary stepping stone/test and if you go to Heaven you get to what....be in God's presence forever? Worship and Glorify it some more..but now kneeling in its face. Depending on your interpretation you seem to get to do all the hedonistic acts you'd like to do on this world....and then...what? What's the point? 80 years on this world then infinity some other plane of existence? Even if you could do whatever you wished, eternity is torture, after the equivalent of 133,430,324, years on Earth...what are you doing in the afterlife? You would have gone mad, unless possibly your mind is wiped of experience over and over...but then there's really no point to it anyway in that case.

    What is the point of this system God has created? Make a planet, have his chosen species live on it for a relatively short lifespan (where as Hydra's are literally immortal)...and then travel to where he resides if they worshiped him correctly/behaved themselves and go to a place of eternal isolation/suffering if you don't....what a plan for an infinity complex universe building entity.
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    (Original post by FightToWin)
    Theists believe how you live in this life determines how you live in the next.
    Some theists believe this, by no means all. This belief can actually cause a lot of stress and heartache actually, there are no shortage of theists out there who are terribly fearful of death because they believe they're going to then suffer torment for all eternity.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Some theists believe this, by no means all.
    Nooooo!! My argument is crushed! How could I ever come back from this?
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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    .... Whether I die this very second, or live another 80 years, becoming the most successful person in the history of mankind, the net outcome is the same. capable of thought, let alone memory – everything any human ever did will be co...
    Yes, totally agree and you are not alone in thinking that. Look at the Book of Ecclesiastes

    Ecclesiastes 1
    Everything Is Meaningless
    1 The words of the Teacher,[a] son of David, king in Jerusalem:2 “Meaningless! Meaningless!” says the Teacher.“Utterly meaningless! Everything is meaningless.”3 What do people gain from all their labours at which they toil under the sun?4 Generations come and generations go, but the earth remains forever.5 The sun rises and the sun sets, and hurries back to where it rises.6 The wind blows to the south and turns to the north;round and round it goes, ever returning on its course.7 All streams flow into the sea, yet the sea is never full.To the place the streams come from,
    there they return again.8 All things are wearisome, more than one can say.The eye never has enough of seeing, nor the ear its fill of hearing.9 What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun.10 Is there anything of which one can say, “Look! This is something new”?It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time.11 No one remembers the former generations, and even those yet to comewill not be remembered by those who follow them.

    Wisdom Is Meaningless12 I, the Teacher, was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13 I applied my mind to study and to explore by wisdom all that is done under the heavens. What a heavy burden God has laid on mankind! 14 I have seen all the things that are done under the sun; all of them are meaningless, a chasing after the wind.

    15 What is crooked cannot be straightened; what is lacking cannot be counted.16 I said to myself, “Look, I have increased in wisdom more than anyone who has ruled over Jerusalem before me; I have experienced much of wisdom and knowledge.” 17 Then I applied myself to the understanding of wisdom, and also of madness and folly, but I learned that this, too, is a chasing after the wind.18 For with much wisdom comes much sorrow; the more knowledge, the more grief.


    I love these verses. I read somewhere it is believed these verses were intended to be aimed at secularists, people who seek to find life's meaning outside of faith in God.

    The perception of addressing some of life's most thought provoking questions.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    Some theists believe this, by no means all. This belief can actually cause a lot of stress and heartache actually, there are no shortage of theists out there who are terribly fearful of death because they believe they're going to then suffer torment for all eternity.
    There are but, these theists have no personal understanding of a relationship with a loving father.

    God loves us. God provides a way for people to be unafraid of eternity.

    If you do not believe God is just and if you do not believe God has made a way for you to be released from this torment then you don't know God.

    God forgives us now and we can literally live in the light of eternity now without a worry.

    Personally for me the jury is out on whether people suffer in hell for eternity. The bible mentions a second death.
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    God is a racist, genocidal, homophobic dictator and the world would be a better place without him
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    (Original post by BefuddledPenguin)
    I have to say this notion of surviving beyond our physical deaths is terrifying. If there isn't a limited time to our existence then why do anything now? If living a pointless and sinless life means that every tear will be dried in the afterlife then I can't see the benefit of living any sort of meaningful life. Why not just stare at a wall your entire life if it ultimately leads to the same outcome? I work hard and try to make the lives of others better because I'm aware of just how brief our existence is. If it goes on forever why do anything now? I've got to say the very concept of permanent existence scares the hell out of me. Even if heaven were pure pleasure, it'd be like eating a delicious cake for infinity. In 'A History of the World in 10 and 1/2 Chapters' Julian Barnes posits the idea of a heaven inevitably becoming dull. People end up asking to have their souls destroyed as they cannot tolerate endlessness. I think I'd take the same route.

    I just feel that your life's purpose has no meaning if another infinite life comes after it. Why not just allow yourself to die of starvation in this life and then spend an eternity figuring out what makes you happy?
    We can't possibly comprehend the concept of eternity. Eternity is another dimension. Time is man's concept, not God's.

    If we push aside the problem with time and the unbearable thought of living for ever and focus on the here and now, God says work is profitable and God tells us to work or we don't eat.
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    (Original post by Racoon)
    We can't possibly comprehend the concept of eternity. Eternity is another dimension. Time is man's concept, not God's.

    If we push aside the problem with time and the unbearable thought of living for ever and focus on the here and now, God says work is profitable and God tells us to work or we don't eat.
    Well actually time isn't a man-made idea, it's a physical reality we all have to deal with. Jesus is actually anti-profit too. 'It is easier for a donkey to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.'

    The eternity problem can't be willed away with, 'just don't think about it.' Thanks to the apparent lack of an afterlife I suppose we won't have to deal with it and I consider that to be highly fortunate. If we just take the age of the universe (which may not cover all of time as there could be other universes) then for 7.2 billion years I didn't exist. There is no pre-birth comparable to an after-life. Did we suffer for that. Do we come into this world traumatised due to our soul being trapped in nothingness? No of course we don't, there was no pre-birth so why on Earth should there be an after-life. If the soul is eternal where was it before I was born? Why is it limited to a physical shell?
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    (Original post by BefuddledPenguin)
    Well actually time isn't a man-made idea, it's a physical reality we all have to deal with. Jesus is actually anti-profit too. 'It is easier for a donkey to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.'

    The eternity problem can't be willed away with, 'just don't think about it.' Thanks to the apparent lack of an afterlife I suppose we won't have to deal with it and I consider that to be highly fortunate. If we just take the age of the universe (which may not cover all of time as there could be other universes) then for 7.2 billion years I didn't exist. There is no pre-birth comparable to an after-life. Did we suffer for that. Do we come into this world traumatised due to our soul being trapped in nothingness? No of course we don't, there was no pre-birth so why on Earth should there be an after-life. If the soul is eternal where was it before I was born? Why is it limited to a physical shell?
    The soul is everlasting, not eternal. There's a difference. No theist believes your soul existed before you did.

    Catholicism uses that quotation in its teaching that the love of money is wrong. The church doesn't oppose profit as such, but making capitalism your god, since this usually leads to the suffering of others. I think most people, theist or otherwise, agree with this teaching.

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    (Original post by SunnysideSea)
    The soul is everlasting, not eternal. There's a difference. No theist believes your soul existed before you did.

    Catholicism uses that quotation in its teaching that the love of money is wrong. The church doesn't oppose profit as such, but making capitalism your god, since this usually leads to the suffering of others. I think most people, theist or otherwise, agree with this teaching.

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    Everlasting and eternal are synonymous, in order for something to last forever, it has to have always existed. If it only lasted since birth or conception, then it is neither eternal or everlasting. Thrift is actively discouraged in the new testament. It is almost socialist in nature.
    It's also very anti-family the following are from Matthew:
    10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
    10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    It's quite clear that to be a true catholic (or christian generally) you have to actively cause suffering to your own family. The dogma actually requires violence, even in the supposedly more peaceful new testament.

    Just watch this:


    The real question is: What would a World with God look like? The answer would clearly be human extinction.
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    (Original post by BefuddledPenguin)
    Well actually time isn't a man-made idea, it's a physical reality we all have to deal with. Jesus is actually anti-profit too. 'It is easier for a donkey to get through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.'

    The eternity problem can't be willed away with, 'just don't think about it.' Thanks to the apparent lack of an afterlife I suppose we won't have to deal with it and I consider that to be highly fortunate. If we just take the age of the universe (which may not cover all of time as there could be other universes) then for 7.2 billion years I didn't exist. There is no pre-birth comparable to an after-life. Did we suffer for that. Do we come into this world traumatised due to our soul being trapped in nothingness? No of course we don't, there was no pre-birth so why on Earth should there be an after-life. If the soul is eternal where was it before I was born? Why is it limited to a physical shell?
    As the reply above said, God is not against us being rich.That verse is nothing to do with being anti-profit but all to do with loving other things before loving God, and loving them so much that you cannot give them up.

    And, I thought there was something not quite accurate about the verse

    Then Jesus said to His disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is difficult for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”

    We did not exist before we were conceived, although I believe God when he says he knew us because God goes before us and therefore knows the future from the past. God knew we would come into being.

    What I mean about time is that on earth we have day divided by night, yes this was ordained by God but outside of our realm on earth time doesn't exist as we know it.

    The rest - you've made up. (...Do we come into this world traumatised due to our soul being trapped in nothingness? No of course we don't, there was no pre-birth so why on Earth should there be an after-life. If the soul is eternal where was it before I was born? Why is it limited to a physical shell?)
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    (Original post by BefuddledPenguin)
    ....
    It's also very anti-family the following are from Matthew:
    10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
    10:35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
    10:36 And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
    10:37 He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.

    It's quite clear that to be a true catholic (or christian generally) you have to actively cause suffering to your own family. The dogma actually requires violence, even in the supposedly more peaceful new testament

    You really have been sold hook, line and sinker by Fry/Dawkins rhetoric.

    Perhaps you should study the bible's message in more depth cause the skirting over the verses isn't doing you justice.
 
 
 
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