If the burqa is a form of oppression, then so are bikinis?

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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    They wear it for God even though he never mentions it in the Qu'ran?
    the Quran says this
    "and say to the believing women that they should draw their veils over their bosoms"

    i.e women should cover their boobs

    "O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59).

    This is basically saying that women should cover so that they are not disrupted and looked at funny because lets admit it men flirt/shout things out at women on the streets all the time if they are attractive so Allah says that its better to cover so you won't be harmed and annoyed

    and the recognised part is because hijab i.e modest clothing is a symbol of islam
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    I just want to politely fix a slight error, the burqa is not a form of oppression contrary to many people's beliefs. In Islam a woman is meant to be protected, they are described as pearls who should be protected and taken care of, the same way a pearl is hidden at the bottom of a sea and protected by the shell. However, there are select few people who do force it and that is NOT allowed in Islam. Many of us women wear it because we feel comfortable, at ease and out of personal choice. I mean, we can go out in our pajamas and no one will know. I love wearing it because i feel safe and secure, but a woman is not meant to be forced.
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    (Original post by samantham999)
    the Quran says this
    "and say to the believing women that they should draw their veils over their bosoms"

    i.e women should cover their boobs

    "O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks close round them (when they go abroad). That will be better, so that they may be recognised and not annoyed. Allah is ever Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 33:59).

    This is basically saying that women should cover so that they are not disrupted and looked at funny because lets admit it men flirt/shout things out at women on the streets all the time if they are attractive so Allah says that its better to cover so you won't be harmed and annoyed

    and the recognised part is because hijab i.e modest clothing is a symbol of islam
    So God doesn't say that you should cover your head, just your breasts. You can therefore be modest -- according to God -- without a burqa or a hijab.
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    (Original post by samantham999)
    marrying children? LOOOOL it isn't valid in this time. Women matured quickly in that time.

    Diets weren't as rich as today in these times, and women matured much later, at 15-16 years old.
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    (Original post by samantham999)
    I think you just hate Islam when you have hardly taken the time to educate your thick mind but whatever X
    I'm not going to play the game. I know how it goes. You claim there are no nasty bits in the Hadiths and the Quran. I quote the nasty bits of the Hadith and the Quran that always get quoted in these conversations. You either criticise the source, or you claim that I simply do not understand them and need an imam to interpret them (because the parts in the Quran or Hadiths such as the bits that advocate reigning fire down on sodomists or cutting off the fingers of enemies are just sooo oblique). We've all seen these discussions, we know what happens, and I'm not going to fall for the usual tricks that ultimately lead me no-where but you being increasingly intellectually dishonest. Like Christians and Jews, you didn't obtain your views via logic, so there is very little point in me taking them apart with logic.
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    (Original post by samantham999)
    ...This is basically saying that women should cover so that they are not disrupted and looked at funny because lets admit it men flirt/shout things out at women on the streets all the time if they are attractive so Allah says that its better to cover so you won't be harmed and annoyed...
    Aside from what seems like subtle victim blaming, for the inappropriate behaviour and mindset of apparently all men. This (bolded text above) is questionable given the hijab is not enough to prevent from being (as you say) women being 'disrupted', 'harmed' and 'annoyed', as revealed in Muslim majority countries where there's a greater reverence for Islam and the Hijab is much featured, yet sexual harassment conducted by Muslim men, still takes place...

    'Egypt's sexual harassment of women 'epidemic'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19440656

    'The myth of how the hijab protects women against sexual assault'

    http://www.womenundersiegeproject.or...sexual-assault

    'In Egypt, Some Women Say That Veils Increase Harassment'

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081602063.html

    'How the hijab has made sexual harassment worse in Iran'

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/ira...P=share_btn_tw

    'Street Harassment and Religious Objectification of Woman'

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/excommu...tion-of-women/
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    (Original post by ami787)
    I just want to politely fix a slight error, the burqa is not a form of oppression contrary to many people's beliefs. In Islam a woman is meant to be protected, they are described as pearls who should be protected and taken care of, the same way a pearl is hidden at the bottom of a sea and protected by the shell. However, there are select few people who do force it and that is NOT allowed in Islam. Many of us women wear it because we feel comfortable, at ease and out of personal choice. I mean, we can go out in our pajamas and no one will know. I love wearing it because i feel safe and secure, but a woman is not meant to be forced.
    Wow, the bolded part is the most literal example of objectification I can think of. Women aren't jewellery, and they aren't at all comparable to jewellery.
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    (Original post by Ladbants)
    Ignoring the small percentage of women who are forced to wear the burqa (it's illegal to force someone to wear it in the UK) surely the argument that the burqa is a form of oppressing women can also be applied to the bikini? One is extremely covering, one is extremely revealing. Yet people seem to think that the bikini is somehow more acceptable than the hijab or the burqa or the niqab.
    I swear to god I've read this post like 7 times over the past week and I still have no idea how you've worked this out.
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    (Original post by string56)
    Aside from what seems like subtle victim blaming, for the inappropriate behaviour and mindset of apparently all men. This (bolded text above) is questionable given the hijab is not enough to prevent from being (as you say) women being 'disrupted', 'harmed' and 'annoyed', as revealed in Muslim majority countries where there's a greater reverence for Islam and the Hijab is much featured, yet sexual harassment conducted by Muslim men, still takes place...

    'Egypt's sexual harassment of women 'epidemic'

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-19440656

    'The myth of how the hijab protects women against sexual assault'

    http://www.womenundersiegeproject.or...sexual-assault

    'In Egypt, Some Women Say That Veils Increase Harassment'

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...081602063.html

    'How the hijab has made sexual harassment worse in Iran'

    http://www.theguardian.com/world/ira...P=share_btn_tw

    'Street Harassment and Religious Objectification of Woman'

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/excommu...tion-of-women/


    I agree! but its just in the sense that the majority of men lets say in the West are not attracted to those who are fully covered up as opposed to those who are showing skin if that makes sense? therefore, they would tend to refrain from harassing or shouting odd things out

    I know it can happen even when modest, I know especially in Islamic countries
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    I'm not going to play the game. I know how it goes. You claim there are no nasty bits in the Hadiths and the Quran. I quote the nasty bits of the Hadith and the Quran that always get quoted in these conversations. You either criticise the source, or you claim that I simply do not understand them and need an imam to interpret them (because the parts in the Quran or Hadiths such as the bits that advocate reigning fire down on sodomists or cutting off the fingers of enemies are just sooo oblique). We've all seen these discussions, we know what happens, and I'm not going to fall for the usual tricks that ultimately lead me no-where but you being increasingly intellectually dishonest. Like Christians and Jews, you didn't obtain your views via logic, so there is very little point in me taking them apart with logic.
    Honestly, I question Islam to the core and there are many things well minor things I am somewhat in the middle or agreeing with. I know what is right and wrong and if I didn't believe in Islam then I would have left many years ago

    I completely understand why people may think how the prophet married a child is absolutely unusual and other things such as gender roles are odd but if you read into them and judge Islam as a whole you would understand more because there a ton of hadiths and many may seem to contradict each other but they do make sense

    I respect all religions truly, I believe religion is personal and quite frankly I am more to the disagree side regarding the veil just because TODAY right now, it will cause a lot of harm to women because what is happening with ISIS and the TALIBAN and stereotypes.
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    (Original post by Ladbants)
    Ignoring the small percentage of women who are forced to wear the burqa (it's illegal to force someone to wear it in the UK) surely the argument that the burqa is a form of oppressing women can also be applied to the bikini? One is extremely covering, one is extremely revealing. Yet people seem to think that the bikini is somehow more acceptable than the hijab or the burqa or the niqab.

    What do you guys think?
    Yes oppression comes in many forms the argument is what are the main reasons behind covering up or flaunting it?As long as you are doing this for yourself and subconsciously you are not being influenced by society including the opposite sex then do what makes you happy
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    They're an item of clothing.

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    (Original post by samantham999)
    I agree! but its just in the sense that the majority of men lets say in the West are not attracted to those who are fully covered up as opposed to those who are showing skin if that makes sense? therefore, they would tend to refrain from harassing or shouting odd things out

    I know it can happen even when modest, I know especially in Islamic countries
    What is this nonsense?! The majority of Westerm men do not harass women on the streets, regardless of how they're dressed.
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    (Original post by KingBradly)
    The suggestion that a woman wearing the burqa is being "modest" is very paradoxical. Think of it this way: A rich man driving a Ferrari is considered less modest than a rich man driving a Ford Fiesta. A rich man driving a Ford Fiesta may be considered an act of modesty. Modesty is to intentionally not flaunt something which you have which one believes is desirable. This may already seem paradoxical, but with a Ferrari (or any other thing which evidently is highly desirable) there is no paradox to this. Ferraris are clearly highly desirable, or they would not have such high prices. The owner is not being very immodest by treating his car as something desirable and trying to be modest by not flaunting it, because its price is firm evidence that it is very desirable. He is therefore not making any kind of vain assumtions about himself or (in this case) his property.

    To hide your body in-order to be modest is to believe that your body is highly desired. Without your body having a price, and without a large amount of people to see it and judge, this belief is left entirely to the woman who chooses to veil herself. Therefore, we have a paradox: in her attempt to be modest, she is self-evidently being immodest by judging that she would be being immodest to show her body, as the only way she could think that she was being immodest by doing so would be if she considered her body to be highly desirable.

    On the other hand, perhaps the woman is not making the decision to wear the burqa or niqab. Perhaps it is her family or community who are pushing her into it. If this is the case, then they are completely objectifying her, as they are treating her as something with an approximate value, much in the same way as people would with a Ferrari or a diamond ring which would be considered immodest to flaunt.



    A woman wearing a bikini is not necessarily sexualised. It is only in a society where every woman wears a burqa that men will get turned on by the slightest display of flesh. The very concept of the burqa objectifies and sexualises a woman's body, by suggesting that her body is something obscene, sexually explicit, which must be hidden, rather like the porno mags kept on the top shelves in corner shops. This creates a much greater desire in men for them to see women's bodies.

    In this country though, we're pretty used to it, so we don't letch over the slightest flash of ankle. We can even have a conversation with a woman in a bikini without thinking of her as just a sex object.

    The bikini is quite practical. It is light and easy to take on and off, which is useful when you need to change in and out of your clothes or go for a piss. It is really no different to men wearing Speedos.

    The burqa is literally designed for the single purpose of hiding women from the public. It serves to separate women from the rest of society. Pretty sexist if you ask me.


    Try to understand this: in our society, sex isn't a bad thing, so a woman having a sexuality, or showing off her sexuality, is not degrading.
    I've read some of your posts on the topic and I wanted to add something. I genuinely believe that some Muslim women definitely feel more comfortable wearing a burka/burkini - for whatever reason - so it's definitely not up to us to tell them that they shouldn't do it. It's their bodies, they do what they want with them.

    BUT you mentioning the Ferrari thing has reminded me of the great many Muslim men (and some women too) who claim to dress modestly and yet go around wearing Armani clothes and Versace bags that are worth thousands of pounds. Like, how on Earth is this modest?

    I may sounds like an ignorant *****, but this doesn't make sense to me at all.
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    (Original post by samantham999)
    I agree! but its just in the sense that the majority of men lets say in the West are not attracted to those who are fully covered up as opposed to those who are showing skin if that makes sense? therefore, they would tend to refrain from harassing or shouting odd things out

    I know it can happen even when modest, I know especially in Islamic countries
    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    What is this nonsense?! The majority of Westerm men do not harass women of on the streets, regardless of how they're dressed.
    That's exactly what I wanted to say. Apart from the odd occasion when I've been, maybe, eyed up, or something like this, I've never been harassed on the streets, even when I wore revealing clothing. And I lived in Romania too. :rofl:

    And no, I'm not ugly. :rofl:

    Who even shouts things out at women nowadays?
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    "Burqa doesn't let women express their sexuality"

    Well if you're wearing the burqa by choice... then it's because you don't WANT to express it, or you don't mind not expressing it.
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    What is this nonsense?! The majority of Westerm men do not harass women of on the streets, regardless of how they're dressed.
    Spend a day as a woman.... then you might realise
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    (Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
    What is this nonsense?! The majority of Westerm men do not harass women on the streets, regardless of how they're dressed.
    I completely agree with you! 👍🏼
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    I wonder what would happen if the two things was swapped around and muslim women were encouraged to walk around in a bikini? (Other than they'd get cold.)

    I've tried on a burqa. Made me feel like a ninja assassin.
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    (Original post by samantham999)
    I agree! but its just in the sense that the majority of men lets say in the West are not attracted to those who are fully covered up as opposed to those who are showing skin if that makes sense? therefore, they would tend to refrain from harassing or shouting odd things out

    I know it can happen even when modest, I know especially in Islamic countries
    As has been pointed by other users, the majority of men in the western world do not harass women, no matter the clothing they wear. Though it's interesting to see even the Hijab, purported by various Muslims to prevent harassment and unwanted attention, isn't immune from the above still being conducted by Muslim men, as pointed out in my previous post.
 
 
 
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