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Is "accidental penetration" rape?

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No what you're doing is adding a bunch of unnecessary details that the OP didn't feel relevant to tell us. Which is odd given the risk of being labelled a rapist. People usually do this to divert and dilute the conversation away from the fact that is frigging rape to penetrate without consent. Even if she had no sensation down there and couldn't tell. It's still rape

This is a fictional scenario so it isn't anything.

These details are not irrelevant. A good legal process will establish exactly whether things like this happened or not.

Rape requires more than just penetration without consent:

In relation to these offences a person (A) is guilty of an offence if she/he:

acts intentionally,
(B) does not consent to the act, and
(A) does not reasonably believe that (B) consents.

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual_offences/consent/#a03

Reply 101

Joep95

Original post by Anonymous

To make this short, I'll bullet point this situation..

1. A man and woman are in bed, kissing and such.
2. The girl made it VERY clear she did not want to have sex with the man
3. She however, agreed to him rubbing his penis on her vagina
4. They do that, but at some point, it slips inside and the man does not stop having sex...
5. The woman is unaware that it slipped inside but is informed by the man, after he ejaculates, that he did penetrate her.

IS THIS RAPE? What are your thoughts?

The bolded is where it becomes rape, if he had stopped then it would be less debatable but in this scenario limits were set and then ignored.

The only possible defence would be he didn't realise it had happened but I would imagine that would be laughed out of court.

Reply 102

~Tara~

Original post by chazwomaq

Yes thanks for quoting the law at me. Since your reasonable belief that consent isn't given is actually already answered in that scenario from OP

Yes if we were police we would ask how he knew he had consent. In your scenario he would mention those signs of consent. In OPs scenario he would say "well she didn't say no" or whatever he decides to say other than the truth that he thought she wouldn't notice.

I'm a bit confused why we are discussing this. It's clearly two separate scenarios that don't and don't have to interlace.

(edited 7 years ago)

Reply 103

~Tara~

Also legally the law requires no more than penetration without consent. The reasonable man test which is used for all legal cases does not create a separate entity where if you swear you didn't know, honest judge, then you're clearly not a rapist. (Well that's the theory) British law has always relied on what can be reaonsably expected - in terms of behaviour and consequence.

Reply 104

Trinculo

Original post by ~Tara~

No, you've pretty much made that up.

Reasonableness only applies in some situations, and it isn't always the "reasonable man".

In some situations, reasonableness doesn't come into it at all - like strict liability. It doesn't matter how reasonable a belief is - if the offence has strict liability - tough luck.

A good example is in Sexual Offences - there is strict liability for statutory rape of a person under 13. In R v G, a 15 year old boy had sex with a 12 year old. He claimed he believed her to be 15. The court accepted that he believed this - but the offence carried strict liability and as such he was convicted, regardless of how reasonable his belief was.

Reply 105

~Tara~

I didn't make it up, there are exceptions and engaging in a sex act with a child under 13 mitigates many factors. But that example as a defence for a child over 13 becomes less clear. Sometimes it will come down to who hears the case. Despite legal consent still not being until 16.

Reply 106

chazwomaq

Original post by ~Tara~

Yes thanks for quoting the law at me.

You're welcome.

In OPs scenario he would say "well she didn't say no" or whatever he decides to say other than the truth that he thought she wouldn't notice.

How do you know the truth in this fictional scenario??

I'm a bit confused why we are discussing this. It's clearly two separate scenarios that don't and don't have to interlace.

We only have the bare bones of the OP scenario. Full details and additional info are needed as several have said already.

Reply 107

~Tara~

The truth for the facts as they are laid out before us. Even on this fictional story, the bullet points are the "facts".

The what if game isn't needed. We don't need any more information because you'd have to be a particular breed of cretin to leave off the part where she really loved it and wanted more when you're hypothetically asking if you're a rapist

Reply 108

chazwomaq

Original post by ~Tara~

The what if game isn't needed. We don't need any more information because you'd have to be a particular breed of cretin to leave off the part where she really loved it and wanted more when you're hypothetically asking if you're a rapist

So maybe the person relating the facts is a cretin. The full facts still matter.

Reply 109

~Tara~

Original post by chazwomaq

So maybe the person relating the facts is a cretin. The full facts still matter.

You seem to be having trouble with this concept...they could be the full facts

Reply 110

chazwomaq

Original post by ~Tara~

You seem to be having trouble with this concept...they could be the full facts

They could be...but we don't know!

A good legal process will try to establish that.

I think you are assuming that she did not give such encouragement whereas I am assuming that we don't know. If so, then do we agree?

Reply 111

seismicwaves9489

Hi Guys. I'm the OP. A mod moved this to "Debate and Society" so I can no longer post as anonymous...
Firstly, thank you all for your help with this..

This is not my homework, or contrived, or a fictional scenario.
This really happened. I'm the girl in the situation.

- I genuinely did not think he was inside. Until he told me afterwards that it did slip inside at some point.
- I found it ridiculous to hear at first; him having sex with me and not feeling anything, but it caused such a big argument that I don't think he'd lie about it.
- Now, around a month after, I am pregnant (and aborting it), so even if he didn't penetrate me, sperm did go inside, so I'm calling this at least sexual assault, and I personally feel extremely violated.

Your answers helped me reach my decision. I will be leaving this guy.

Thanks again everyone :smile:

Reply 112

Underscore__

The simple answer is yes, it's legally rape

Posted from TSR Mobile

Reply 113

Mmmsama

Well for one she would 1000% feel it lol. And I wouldn't go as far as to say that's rape, but it is a big violation of trust, that he knew what happened and carred on regardless of her wishes. He took advantage of her trust. So awful, but not exactly rape.