Is "accidental penetration" rape?

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    As a person with a vagina..the only way she wouldn't know penetration is if she is too drunk to consent. So still rape. Or you really pushed the boundaries of penis to labia contact and were already pressing against the vagina. There's a slight amount of time where the pressure feels the same when you push on and slightly in. In which case you're still morally corrupt and a rapist because who hears don't penetrate and then thinks..well I'll just press my penis there and maybe she won't notice.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    But what about my suggested extra details? Without knowing whether something like that did or didn't happen, can we make a sound judgement? That's why police interviews or court cases have to go through these details so finely.

    If nothing like I suggested occurred, it definitely pushes things towards rape. But we need full information to be sure.
    No what you're doing is adding a bunch of unnecessary details that the OP didn't feel relevant to tell us. Which is odd given the risk of being labelled a rapist. People usually do this to divert and dilute the conversation away from the fact that is frigging rape to penetrate without consent. Even if she had no sensation down there and couldn't tell. It's still rape
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    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    No what you're doing is adding a bunch of unnecessary details that the OP didn't feel relevant to tell us. Which is odd given the risk of being labelled a rapist. People usually do this to divert and dilute the conversation away from the fact that is frigging rape to penetrate without consent. Even if she had no sensation down there and couldn't tell. It's still rape
    This is a fictional scenario so it isn't anything.

    These details are not irrelevant. A good legal process will establish exactly whether things like this happened or not.

    Rape requires more than just penetration without consent:

    In relation to these offences a person (A) is guilty of an offence if she/he:

    acts intentionally,
    (B) does not consent to the act, and
    (A) does not reasonably believe that (B) consents.
    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/r...s/consent/#a03
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    (Original post by Anonymous)
    To make this short, I'll bullet point this situation..

    1. A man and woman are in bed, kissing and such.
    2. The girl made it VERY clear she did not want to have sex with the man
    3. She however, agreed to him rubbing his penis on her vagina
    4. They do that, but at some point, it slips inside and the man does not stop having sex...
    5. The woman is unaware that it slipped inside but is informed by the man, after he ejaculates, that he did penetrate her.

    IS THIS RAPE? What are your thoughts?
    The bolded is where it becomes rape, if he had stopped then it would be less debatable but in this scenario limits were set and then ignored.

    The only possible defence would be he didn't realise it had happened but I would imagine that would be laughed out of court.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    This is a fictional scenario so it isn't anything.

    These details are not irrelevant. A good legal process will establish exactly whether things like this happened or not.

    Rape requires more than just penetration without consent:



    http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/r...s/consent/#a03
    Yes thanks for quoting the law at me. Since your reasonable belief that consent isn't given is actually already answered in that scenario from OP

    Yes if we were police we would ask how he knew he had consent. In your scenario he would mention those signs of consent. In OPs scenario he would say "well she didn't say no" or whatever he decides to say other than the truth that he thought she wouldn't notice.

    I'm a bit confused why we are discussing this. It's clearly two separate scenarios that don't and don't have to interlace.
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    Also legally the law requires no more than penetration without consent. The reasonable man test which is used for all legal cases does not create a separate entity where if you swear you didn't know, honest judge, then you're clearly not a rapist. (Well that's the theory) British law has always relied on what can be reaonsably expected - in terms of behaviour and consequence.
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    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    Also legally the law requires no more than penetration without consent. The reasonable man test which is used for all legal cases does not create a separate entity where if you swear you didn't know, honest judge, then you're clearly not a rapist. (Well that's the theory) British law has always relied on what can be reaonsably expected - in terms of behaviour and consequence.
    No, you've pretty much made that up.

    Reasonableness only applies in some situations, and it isn't always the "reasonable man".

    In some situations, reasonableness doesn't come into it at all - like strict liability. It doesn't matter how reasonable a belief is - if the offence has strict liability - tough luck.

    A good example is in Sexual Offences - there is strict liability for statutory rape of a person under 13. In R v G, a 15 year old boy had sex with a 12 year old. He claimed he believed her to be 15. The court accepted that he believed this - but the offence carried strict liability and as such he was convicted, regardless of how reasonable his belief was.
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    I didn't make it up, there are exceptions and engaging in a sex act with a child under 13 mitigates many factors. But that example as a defence for a child over 13 becomes less clear. Sometimes it will come down to who hears the case. Despite legal consent still not being until 16.
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    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    Yes thanks for quoting the law at me.
    You're welcome.

    In OPs scenario he would say "well she didn't say no" or whatever he decides to say other than the truth that he thought she wouldn't notice.
    How do you know the truth in this fictional scenario??

    I'm a bit confused why we are discussing this. It's clearly two separate scenarios that don't and don't have to interlace.
    We only have the bare bones of the OP scenario. Full details and additional info are needed as several have said already.
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    The truth for the facts as they are laid out before us. Even on this fictional story, the bullet points are the "facts".

    The what if game isn't needed. We don't need any more information because you'd have to be a particular breed of cretin to leave off the part where she really loved it and wanted more when you're hypothetically asking if you're a rapist
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    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    The what if game isn't needed. We don't need any more information because you'd have to be a particular breed of cretin to leave off the part where she really loved it and wanted more when you're hypothetically asking if you're a rapist
    So maybe the person relating the facts is a cretin. The full facts still matter.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    So maybe the person relating the facts is a cretin. The full facts still matter.
    You seem to be having trouble with this concept...they could be the full facts
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    (Original post by ~Tara~)
    You seem to be having trouble with this concept...they could be the full facts
    They could be...but we don't know!

    A good legal process will try to establish that.

    I think you are assuming that she did not give such encouragement whereas I am assuming that we don't know. If so, then do we agree?
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    Hi Guys. I'm the OP. A mod moved this to "Debate and Society" so I can no longer post as anonymous...
    Firstly, thank you all for your help with this..

    This is not my homework, or contrived, or a fictional scenario.
    This really happened. I'm the girl in the situation.

    - I genuinely did not think he was inside. Until he told me afterwards that it did slip inside at some point.
    - I found it ridiculous to hear at first; him having sex with me and not feeling anything, but it caused such a big argument that I don't think he'd lie about it.
    - Now, around a month after, I am pregnant (and aborting it), so even if he didn't penetrate me, sperm did go inside, so I'm calling this at least sexual assault, and I personally feel extremely violated.

    Your answers helped me reach my decision. I will be leaving this guy.

    Thanks again everyone
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    The simple answer is yes, it's legally rape


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