Ched Evans cleared of rape in retrial

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    (Original post by BigMan Ting)
    There are way too many blurred lines. When people say 'reasonable' - that is a massive grey area. Evans must have thought it was reasonable when she 'nodded her head' or didn't say no, does that mean he wasn't given consent? She didn't explicitly say no did she? Another factor that is an issue is that is it still considered as rape to have sex with a drunk person? This is why I think the original case should neverhave stood because the complainant did not say 'no' or 'stop' or 'get off me'. People are still saying that his mate denied Evans ever saying that the girl said yes to him when he in fact texted him that he found a drunk girl so surely he should've went to prison for exactly the same reason as Ched Evans as she was too wasted to have the capacity to consent.
    The onus should not be on the complainant to say no. If the complainant is unconscious or has been knocked out they would not be able to say no but that doesn't mean that they were consenting.*
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    If he's a victim, he genuinely did bring it all on himself.

    If he had actually, you know, asked the woman before sticking his penis in her, this would never have got to trial. Just a single phrase would have done. Instead, he lied about McDonald asking.
    Well to the best of our knowledge she was consenting.

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    To be fair when people criticised Evans, he had been convicted.*

    They had every reason to assume his guilt when he had been found guilty. It wasn't a trial by media, he had been convicted.
    I don't feel that they owe him any apology for that.*

    *
    Well maybe they should write counter arguments to their original articles that are on the side of the victim in this case.


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    This case perfectly encapsulates how non-existence 'rape-culture' is. If rape culture was as bad a feminists claim then the general reaction from the public would have been to slut shame the girl and sympathise with Ched after the first trial (didn't happen) but even after he's found not guilty people are still referring to the girl as the victim and Ched will still be hated by lots of people.


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    (Original post by unprinted)
    No he didn't. From the first Court of Appeal judgement:

    "The circumstances in which each of the two men came to be involved in the sexual activity was quite different; so indeed were the circumstances in which they left her."

    As the third person in the room, McDonald is precisely the person who should be listened to when considering whether or not Evans is guilty.
    Clayton Macdonald had sex with her first, when she was more drunk, and over time alcohol will be processed through your body meaning that you sober up as time passes. This means that Evans had sex with her when she was less drunk than before, so if what he did is illegal then what Macdonald did is just as bad if not worse.
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Well to the best of our knowledge she was consenting.
    Crap.

    (Original post by Underscore__)
    This case perfectly encapsulates how non-existence 'rape-culture' is. If rape culture was as bad a feminists claim then the general reaction from the public would have been to slut shame the girl and sympathise with Ched after the first trial (didn't happen)
    Are you wilfully ignoring the torrent of abuse the woman in the case has had?

    There are still plenty of apologists here who reckon that what he did was ok but none has answered the consent challenge, based on what Evans and McDonald say happened. Do you want to have a go?

    You've arrived in a hotel room, uninvited, unexpected and unwanted. (You had to lie to get the door key - you've been drinking, but you're in control of your mind and your actions.) Your mate is having sex with a woman. You've never spoken to the woman before, and you do not speak to her now. You don't actually know who she is... was she the one you stepped over when she was lying drunk on the floor of that kebab shop a while ago? Either way, your mate hears your brother and a friend at the window trying to film what's happening and gets off her to close the curtains. He also doesn't ask her whether you can have sex with her, but you do anyway... without using a condom, and you don't ask about that either.

    Where's your reasonable belief in her consent?
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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    This case perfectly encapsulates how non-existence 'rape-culture' is. If rape culture was as bad a feminists claim then the general reaction from the public would have been to slut shame the girl and sympathise with Ched after the first trial (didn't happen) but even after he's found not guilty people are still referring to the girl as the victim and Ched will still be hated by lots of people.


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    Interesting how feminists have attempted to broadbrush the UK as having a 'rape culture' yet when you look at the most recent information, it shows that the rates of these crimes have been declining for the last 10 years at least. Just look at this graph here, in particular the 3rd line.

    http://freethoughtblogs.com/hetpat/f...2/VAWgraph.png
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    (Original post by dtin)
    Clayton Macdonald had sex with her first, when she was more drunk, and over time alcohol will be processed through your body meaning that you sober up as time passes. This means that Evans had sex with her when she was less drunk than before, so if what he did is illegal then what Macdonald did is just as bad if not worse.
    I don't think anyone who's looked at this properly suggests that she was any more or less drunk - it was literally a few seconds between McDonald stopping having sex with her and Evans starting.

    McDonald was also accused of rape, of course. But once more, the difference between the two isn't the state of her intoxication, it's that McDonald may have had a reasonable (but mistaken) belief in her consent, whereas Evans didn't.

    I'm having a hard time thinking of a good reason why you don't accept that.
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    (Original post by James.Carnell)
    I think the media owes him an apology.

    Super Ched Evannsss
    I agree.

    He made stupid choices but he lost his liberty, reputation, job and a whole boat load of cash


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    (Original post by paul514)
    I agree.

    He made stupid choices but he lost his liberty, reputation, job and a whole boat load of cash


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    Whereas the women has received multiple death threats, had her name leaked on social media numerous times despite having legal anonymity and had to change her address and name multiple times due to the threats.

    As well as that she was made to stand in a court of law and described her sexual history with other men including her favourite sexual positions and the noises she makes.


    Of course let's have more sympathy for the rich footballer though...
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    (Original post by unprinted)
    Crap.



    Are you wilfully ignoring the torrent of abuse the woman in the case has had?

    There are still plenty of apologists here who reckon that what he did was ok but none has answered the consent challenge, based on what Evans and McDonald say happened. Do you want to have a go?

    You've arrived in a hotel room, uninvited, unexpected and unwanted. (You had to lie to get the door key - you've been drinking, but you're in control of your mind and your actions.) Your mate is having sex with a woman. You've never spoken to the woman before, and you do not speak to her now. You don't actually know who she is... was she the one you stepped over when she was lying drunk on the floor of that kebab shop a while ago? Either way, your mate hears your brother and a friend at the window trying to film what's happening and gets off her to close the curtains. He also doesn't ask her whether you can have sex with her, but you do anyway... without using a condom, and you don't ask about that either.

    Where's your reasonable belief in her consent?
    Yes she's had abuse but from a minority. Evans was being blasted when he got out of prison and wanted to get on with his life, something he was entitled to do even if he were guilty. Now that he's been found not guilty no one wants apologise. This is mainstream media blasting him, not a couple of idiots like the complainant had to deal with.

    I wasn't in the room so I can't really answer that. I also couldn't explain how I know my girlfriend is consenting to sex, I just know. I don't know anyone who would say to someone 'can I put my penis in you' before sex, consent is rarely verbalised.

    Do you want to have a go at explaining how a girl too drunk to stand can have sex doggy style?

    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Whereas the women has received multiple death threats, had her name leaked on social media numerous times despite having legal anonymity and had to change her address and name multiple times due to the threats.

    As well as that she was made to stand in a court of law and described her sexual history with other men including her favourite sexual positions and the noises she makes.


    Of course let's have more sympathy for the rich footballer though...
    The rich footballer who had his career ruined and spent two years in jail for a crime he didn't commit. I'm sure he too will have had death threats.


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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    Yes she's had abuse but from a minority. Evans was being blasted when he got out of prison and wanted to get on with his life, something he was entitled to do even if he were guilty. Now that he's been found not guilty no one wants apologise. This is mainstream media blasting him, not a couple of idiots like the complainant had to deal with.

    I wasn't in the room so I can't really answer that. I also couldn't explain how I know my girlfriend is consenting to sex, I just know. I don't know anyone who would say to someone 'can I put my penis in you' before sex, consent is rarely verbalised.

    Do you want to have a go at explaining how a girl too drunk to stand can have sex doggy style?



    The rich footballer who had his career ruined and spent two years in jail for a crime he didn't commit. I'm sure he too will have had death threats.


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    I have little sympathy for him. I don't doubt the verdict but he was absolute idiot for putting himself in that position.

    He was a rich footballer who could have any girl he wanted, yet he chose to go for a very intoxicated girl who he saw slumped on the floor in he kebab shop. He lied to get a key to the hotel, asked his brother and friend to stand outside and film and turned up to the room uninvited to see his friend having sex with a very drunk girl.


    Without asking her( and indeed lying about asking her) or even using a condom he decided that it would be a good idea to sleep with her.

    I'm not saying he raped her. The jury found him not guilty and I accept that.

    That doesn't mean he wasn't an absolute idiot for putting himself in the situation he did that night when there was absolutely no need to.

    I haven't heard about him receiving death threats though.


    The girl didn't even claim she was raped, she claimed she couldn't remember. It was the police not her who pushed the case.

    For her to have her identity purposely leaked (in violation of the law) and recieve numerous death threats so that she had to move home and change her name numerous times was really disgusting. As are claims by some that she should be prosecuted. She never claimed she was raped, the police and cps pushed the case, not her.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I have little sympathy for him. I don't doubt the verdict but he was absolute idiot for putting himself in that position.

    He was a rich footballer who could have any girl he wanted, yet he chose to go for a very intoxicated girl who he saw slumped on the floor in he kebab shop. He lied to get a key to the hotel, asked his brother and friend to stand outside and film and turned up to the room uninvited to see his friend having sex with a very drunk girl.


    Without asking her( and indeed lying about asking her) or even using a condom he decided that it would be a good idea to sleep with her.

    I'm not saying he raped her. The jury found him not guilty and I accept that.

    That doesn't mean he wasn't an absolute idiot for putting himself in the situation he did that night when there was absolutely no need to.

    I haven't heard about him receiving death threats though.


    The girl didn't even claim she was raped, she claimed she couldn't remember. It was the police not her who pushed the case.

    For her to have her identity purposely leaked (in violation of the law) and revive numerous death threats so that she had to move home and change her name numerous times was really disgusting. As are claimants by some that she should be prosecuted. She never claimed she was raped, the police and cps pushed the case, not her.
    I'm not saying that what he did wasn't stupid and completely immoral but he's has his career ruined and in a lot of people's eyes he'll forever be viewed as something he isn't; he is a victim in this. The girl in question is also a victim but to a lot of people she's the sole victim and in my opinion that's wrong. He's not the first person to go out, get drunk and do something stupid and he won't be the last. She's not the first person to go out, get drunk and put herself in a vulnerable position and won't be the last. Both people have suffered from this but when Evans was released from prison (and in theory served his debt to society) influential people tried to prevent that, now that he's been found not guilty he's owed an apology


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    (Original post by Underscore__)
    I'm not saying that what he did wasn't stupid and completely immoral but he's has his career ruined and in a lot of people's eyes he'll forever be viewed as something he isn't; he is a victim in this. The girl in question is also a victim but to a lot of people she's the sole victim and in my opinion that's wrong. He's not the first person to go out, get drunk and do something stupid and he won't be the last. She's not the first person to go out, get drunk and put herself in a vulnerable position and won't be the last. Both people have suffered from this but when Evans was released from prison (and in theory served his debt to society) influential people tried to prevent that, now that he's been found not guilty he's owed an apology


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    I agree that both are victims to an extent.

    I just find it hard to have sympathy for someone who was so stupid and needlessly put himself into a situation which which was so obviously dodgy.

    Drunk sex happens, of course it does and there is nothing wrong with it. However when the girl is so drunk that she was on the floor in a kebab shop and falling and stumbling over, a lightbulb should have turned on in cheds head.

    I bet you, like me and most males has been in a situation where a girl who is incredibly drunk and falling over is coming on to you. It's not necessarily the case that having sex would be rape and perhaps they may even want to in their very drunken state but I'm sure like me, you've used a bit of common sense and not put yourself into a dodgy situation.

    That's all Ched needed to do, just show the slightest bit of common sense. If you walked into a room uninvited to see your friend having sex with a very drunk girl that you had never met or spoke to and that you earlier saw on the floor of a kebab shop would you have sex with her?

    I'm not saying it would necessarily be rape but it wouldn't be incredibly stupid and I wouldn't have little sympathy for people so needlessly putting themselves into that situation.


    I hope both of them can now move on with their lives.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Whereas the women has received multiple death threats, had her name leaked on social media numerous times despite having legal anonymity and had to change her address and name multiple times due to the threats.

    As well as that she was made to stand in a court of law and described her sexual history with other men including her favourite sexual positions and the noises she makes.


    Of course let's have more sympathy for the rich footballer though...
    The rich footballer who was found innocent


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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    I have little sympathy for him. I don't doubt the verdict but he was absolute idiot for putting himself in that position.

    He was a rich footballer who could have any girl he wanted, yet he chose to go for a very intoxicated girl who he saw slumped on the floor in he kebab shop. He lied to get a key to the hotel, asked his brother and friend to stand outside and film and turned up to the room uninvited to see his friend having sex with a very drunk girl.


    Without asking her( and indeed lying about asking her) or even using a condom he decided that it would be a good idea to sleep with her.

    I'm not saying he raped her. The jury found him not guilty and I accept that.

    That doesn't mean he wasn't an absolute idiot for putting himself in the situation he did that night when there was absolutely no need to.

    I haven't heard about him receiving death threats though.


    The girl didn't even claim she was raped, she claimed she couldn't remember. It was the police not her who pushed the case.

    For her to have her identity purposely leaked (in violation of the law) and revive numerous death threats so that she had to move home and change her name numerous times was really disgusting. As are claimants by some that she should be prosecuted. She never claimed she was raped, the police and cps pushed the case, not her.
    I agree that he's an idiot for getting himself into that situation in the first place, but he is a footballer and they're known for doing stupid things.
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    (Original post by paul514)
    The rich footballer who was found innocent


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    This keeps being said. No one is ever found innocent, our criminal justice system doesn't work like that.

    Being found not guilty simply means that on the basis of the evidence put forward that the jury were not sure beyond all reasonable doubt that you are guilty.

    If the jury thinks a defendant is probably guilty, they must acquit.

    We don't know what the jury felt, perhaps they felt he was completely innocent, perhaps they felt he was probably guilty but there was some lingering doubt. Perhaps somewhere in between.

    The reality is we don't know what they thought other than the fact he was not guilty beyond all reasonable doubt.

    No one is ever found innocent, that's not how the criminal justice system works.
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    (Original post by dtin)
    I agree that he's an idiot for getting himself into that situation in the first place, but he is a footballer and they're known for doing stupid things.
    Being a footballer is not an excuse for being an absolute idiot and thinking you can do whatever you want.

    Put yourself in his shoes, you turn up at a hotel room uninvited after lying to get the key, you see your friend having sex with a very drunk girl who earlier that evening you saw slumped on the floor of a kebab shop, your brother and friend are stood outside the window filming, you then proceed to have sex with this girl, who you have never spoke to, without asking and without using a condom. You then leave through the fire escape.


    Now how did a lightbulb not turn on in his head earlier? I am not saying he reaped her, the jury have found him not guilty and I accept that. But I have no sympathy for him as he chose needlessly to put himself in a very dodgy situation and to take advantage of a very drunk girl when he had absolutely no need to.

    If Ched has shown the slightest bit of common sense then this whole thing would never have happened.
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    (Original post by Fenice)
    It's foolish of people who are totally unqualified to be saying they 'agree' or 'disagree' with the decision

    What I don't understand is why he was originally found guilty of rape due to the woman being too drunk to consent when McDonald, who had sex with her at the same time, was cleared.

    I also don't understand why people accused of rape are not given full anonymity and even why they are jailed at all in such circumstances until the appeal process has been completely exhausted as he has now suffered enormous damage to his reputation and professional prospects
    because in the facts of the case it is stated that she originally went back to the hotel with McDonald and had consensual sex with him, he texted Ched saying he had a girl, so he decided to show up (and others video'd on their phones/watched from the window.. sounds really nice) and Ched didn't even speak one word to the woman, he just appeared and started having sex with her.

    there are a lot of dodgy things about what happened that night which is most likely why in the original trial he was found guilty.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Being a footballer is not an excuse for being an absolute idiot and thinking you can do whatever you want.

    Put yourself in his shoes, you turn up at a hotel room uninvited after lying to get the key, you see your friend having sex with a very drunk girl who earlier that evening you saw slumped on the floor of a kebab shop, your brother and friend are stood outside the window filming, you then proceed to have sex with this girl, who you have never spoke to, without asking and without using a condom. You then leave through the fire escape.


    Now how did a lightbulb not turn on in his head earlier? I am not saying he reaped her, the jury have found him not guilty and I accept that. But I have no sympathy for him as he chose needlessly to put himself in a very dodgy situation and to take advantage of a very drunk girl when he had absolutely no need to.

    If Ched has shown the slightest bit of common sense then this whole thing would never have happened.
    I completely agree, that's exactly what I was thinking when I first heard about him having his case reviewed.
    I'm not saying it's an excuse, I'm saying that footballers aren't exactly the brightest sparks and have been known to do some incredibly stupid things. So when something like this does happen it's really no surprise who is doing it.
    However, that doesn't make it any better.
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    (Original post by dtin)
    I completely agree, that's exactly what I was thinking when I first heard about him having his case reviewed.
    I'm not saying it's an excuse, I'm saying that footballers aren't exactly the brightest sparks and have been known to do some incredibly stupid things. So when something like this does happen it's really no surprise who is doing it.
    However, that doesn't make it any better.
    Ignoring whether or not what Ched did was criminal, the whole sequence of events just shows the dangerous mindset many people have.

    He saw a girl slumped on the floor in a kebab shop and then decided that he should join his friend in having sex with her while his brother and mate filmed it. He treated her like a piece of meat.

    He may not have raped her but I have no sympathy at all for him given how he made so many dreadful choices that night out of his own doing and treated the girl with such little dignity and respect.
 
 
 
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