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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    No, it's 'you're being mean to me, I'm not going to vote for you'. It's really not that hard of a concept to understand. For a group of people who think they're the smartest people in any room, it's staggering how they keep failing to comprehend that belittling people's concerns is not a persuasive political argument.
    So you admit people already held these beliefs and saying "belittling them made them vote for Brexit" is total nonsense?

    Good.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I'm saying people (middle America) didn't vote Democrat because Democrats are whiny, annoying, condescending douchebags.
    That is an assumption you will find very hard to back up even in the slightest.

    Not to mention "boohoo everything about 'Murica sucks, we need The Donald to make it great again" sounds a lot like whining to me. Boohoo all these evil Mexicans are gonna rape everyone I don't even care about.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    So you admit people already held these beliefs and saying "belittling them made them vote for Brexit" is total nonsense?

    Good.
    What are you waffling on about? Politics isn't binary. Views and beliefs aren't absolute. Why are you so unable to grasp such a basic, simple concept? You win people over with discourse and debate, not with tantrums and insults. That's the bottom line. Stop trying to spin my words into something else.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    What are you waffling on about? Politics isn't binary. Views and beliefs aren't absolute. Why are you so unable to grasp such a basic, simple concept? You win people over with discourse and debate, not with tantrums and insults. That's the bottom line. Stop trying to spin my words into something else.
    Your argument was not "the left is at fault for people voting Trump/Brexit, because it called those people racists".
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    That is an assumption you will find very hard to back up even in the slightest.

    Not to mention "boohoo everything about 'Murica sucks, we need The Donald to make it great again" sounds a lot like whining to me. Boohoo all these evil Mexicans are gonna rape everyone I don't even care about.
    I don't have to back it up. I'm not making a hypothesis or submitting a research paper. I'm telling you straight up the motivations behind the Brexit and Trump vote. Ultimately the liberal left can stick their fingers in their ears, continue what they're doing and continue losing elections and referendums, or they can start listening to why they lost from the people that voted against them and change their ways. It seems you want it to be the former.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    Your argument was not "the left is at fault for people voting Trump/Brexit, because it called those people racists".
    My argument is 'the left is at fault for people voting Trump/Brexit, because the left ignore, belittle and marginalise people who have mainstream right-wing concerns instead of trying to win them over.'
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    @OP

    Apologies for the pedantry but may I take liberty of correcting an error in your thread title.

    I think you'll find you spell democracy "s t u p i d q u e s t i o n s"

    Thank you for listening
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    I don't have to back it up. I'm not making a hypothesis or submitting a research paper. I'm telling you straight up the motivations behind the Brexit and Trump vote. Ultimately the liberal left can stick their fingers in their ears, continue what they're doing and continue losing elections and referendums, or they can start listening to why they lost from the people that voted against them and change their ways. It seems you want it to be the former.
    I am pretty happy to let retards be retards. If I need to suck up to people just to stop them from being racists, then no thanks.

    Exit polls show a monumental win for Clinton with the millennials so it will just take time, because while politics may change as they age, they would even then not have voted Trump - you don't suddenly become racist if you weren't before, or sexist if you weren't before. People don't just unlearn progressive values just because they get older.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    My argument is 'the left is at fault for people voting Trump/Brexit, because the left ignore, belittle and marginalise people who have mainstream right-wing concerns instead of trying to win them over.'
    I am saying that no amount of sucking up would be worth to win these people over.
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    As Churchill said, democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others (or words to that effect). I agree, but have to accept that it will produce decisions that I fundamentally disagree with some of the time.

    Many people appear to vote for invalid or illogical reasons, e.g. I always vote Conservative / Labour etc. I often think that some form of simple multiple-choice test, to show that you actually know the candidates' key policies, should be added. Unfortunately, that could be abused.

    Ultimately, those against Brexit and Trump did a poor job of convincing people of their merits and the flaws in the other side. It's another lesson to never underestimate the power of stupidity, and not to be complacent.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    I am pretty happy to let retards be retards. If I need to suck up to people just to stop them from being racists, then no thanks.

    Exit polls show a monumental win for Clinton with the millennials so it will just take time, because while politics may change as they age, they would even then not have voted Trump - you don't suddenly become racist if you weren't before, or sexist if you weren't before. People don't just unlearn progressive values just because they get older.
    Again, you're proving my point. You offer no debate or discourse, only petty insults. That's the modern liberal left in a nutshell.

    Clinton polled pretty much the same with under 30s (about 54%) as Jimmy Carter did in 1976. Just like those young adults grew up and ended up voting for Reagan, the Bushes and Trump, Clinton's millennials will do too.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    I am saying that no amount of sucking up would be worth to win these people over.
    Im talking about swing voters. Yes, even swing voters and moderates too have issues and concerns over immigration and the economy. 41% of politically central moderates voted for Trump, precisely because of people like you.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Again, you're proving my point. You offer no debate or discourse, only petty insults. That's the modern liberal left in a nutshell.

    Clinton polled pretty much the same with under 30s (about 54%) as Jimmy Carter did in 1976. Just like those young adults grew up and ended up voting for Reagan, the Bushes and Trump, Clinton's millennials will do too.
    Thatcher was very popular with the young back then.
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    If sheep elect wolves to be their shepherds, then they deserve to be eaten...
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Again, you're proving my point. You offer no debate or discourse, only petty insults. That's the modern liberal left in a nutshell.

    Clinton polled pretty much the same with under 30s (about 54%) as Jimmy Carter did in 1976. Just like those young adults grew up and ended up voting for Reagan, the Bushes and Trump, Clinton's millennials will do too.
    I just provided discourse. You said the left should have sucked up to those feeling with those feelings instead of calling them what they are, racists. I said I am fine not doing that. That would mean validating their opinions.

    In 1979 I think you will find society was a lot more gender and race unfriendly than now. If you had read what I said, you would have realized your point is inaccurate - it come as no surprise that such people would vote Trump.
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    Im talking about swing voters. Yes, even swing voters and moderates too have issues and concerns over immigration and the economy. 41% of politically central moderates voted for Trump, precisely because of people like you.
    :rofl:

    You are too good to be true.
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    (Original post by ChaoticButterfly)
    Thatcher was very popular with the young back then.
    Yes, she was, and in Scotland too. That's probably the difference between her landslide victories and David Cameron barely winning a majority.
    The point stands though. It's not like the young that voted for Thatcher became left-wing. That generation still got even more conservative, albeit a smaller increase from a larger starting base.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    I just provided discourse. You said the left should have sucked up to those feeling with those feelings instead of calling them what they are, racists. I said I am fine not doing that. That would mean validating their opinions.

    In 1979 I think you will find society was a lot more gender and race unfriendly than now. If you had read what I said, you would have realized your point is inaccurate - it come as no surprise that such people would vote Trump.
    That's not political discourse. That's insulting the electorate. A radical idea, but liberals could try and allay immigration fears, debate why it's worth immigration is worth it, and cut out the condescending insults. And so forth with other political issues.
    I did read what you said. Nothing of any substance. Even your explanation makes no sense. Millennials favouring Clinton prove jack, just as the war-protesting, tree-hugging hippies voting for Carter proved jack.
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    (Original post by yudothis)
    :rofl:

    You are too good to be true.
    Don't tell me, my choice of wording offends you? Did it violate your safe space?
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    (Original post by pol pot noodles)
    My argument is 'the left is at fault for people voting Trump/Brexit, because the left ignore, belittle and marginalise people who have mainstream right-wing concerns instead of trying to win them over.'
    I agree-ish. And I say that as someone who is proudly of the left.

    Part of Trump's appeal was his bashing of neolberalism and globalisation - policies that have been devastating for the working classes.
    Yet when these voters complain about corporations using mass immigration to undercut their wages the left has called them racist. When they complain about free trade agreements that have moved their jobs offshore, the centre left call them political dinosaurs.The left has failed to offer any alternative to the working classes and when it fails to convince them to vote for it, it hurls abuse at them.

    The reason Clinton lost was not because she was a woman and not because Trump voters were racist but because she offered no change whatsoever. America was crying out for someone to take a sledgehammer to the globalist, neoliberal system and instead the Democrats choose someone with all the charisma of a bank manager.

    The reason working class people voted Brexit is not because they were racist or stupid but because the likes of UKIP actually spoke to them. I believe UKIP offered horrible solutions but they actually engaged these people and made them feel important, something the left hasn't done.

    The left needs to offer a real alternative and stop accusing people who don't vote for it of being racist/sexist/ bigoted.
 
 
 
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