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    (Original post by lɪŋgwɪst)
    Thats what I was getting at. To us it's a "horrific practice", but they've been doing it for a long time. I don't like it at all - I think it's absolutely awful, but my point was that we can't just dismiss all these kinds of rituals and behaviours as 'backward' or 'uncivilised' with the click of a finger. It's tangled up with cultural relativism, and ethnocentricity...isn't it?
    And cultural relativism would endorse slavery and the holocaust, got any other bright ideas?
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    They do it where I am from, Somalia..Yh, it is sickening , especially the extreme forms!!!
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    (Original post by EskimoJo)
    I personally doubt most of these procedures are done by doctors in hospitals. And just because some old man/woman has mutilated many girls does not make them a specialist.
    Why should mutilation be preferred to education? Why should people have to fear and get pain from sex in order to reduce AIDs? Is such action necessary on other continents? And why should painful sex be limited to females?
    They are not done in hospitals, especially where I am from. They come to your house .
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    Wouldn't expect anything different from them. Barbaric as usual...
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    its also legal in christian countries. Its not a Muslim thing. Its mainly an african thing! This barbaric is predates islam and Christianity and has been goin on for centuries.
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    (Original post by Obama.Change.We.Need)
    Wouldn't expect anything different from them. Barbaric as usual...
    from who?
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    (Original post by Thud)
    The choice is there for Western women, no one is, hopefully, forced into it. FGM is absolutely sickening, especially it's most extreme form where women are cut open on their wedding night with a knife. Absolutely brutal.
    Oh I know. I'm just pointing out the societal link.
    FGM is sickening and calling it "cultural" is people's excuse not to fight it. It's terrible.
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    (Original post by Clements-)
    How is it the same thing? At all. The only similarities are that it is surgery on the same area.
    Cultural pressure on women to do things for men.
    Obviously FGM is a million times worse, just pointing out the link.
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    (Original post by EskimoJo)
    It scares me that you had to have other people point out the difference to you. I really do hope you were joking. :curious:
    I get the difference.
    I get that FGM is disgusting and renders women incapable of pleasure whereas labiaplasty etc does not.
    I was merely pointing out the links to some Western women streamlining their vaginas to make men happy.
    Christ, I'm totally anti-FGM, but it's interesting to point out societal links; you people need to read some feminist tracts.
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    (Original post by fran.ha)
    Does anyone elses vag hurt?

    Yes, and i don't even have one.

    Id anyone wants a clipped account of it, they should read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobio. Apparantly it sounds like fat being cut off chicken at a butchers. Sorry.

    It's more of a cultural thing. But of course, in theocratic countries, power and control is wielded through religion, and so it isn't as easy as some suggest to separate the concepts.

    How far must indoctrination be embedded for someone to be able to put their child through so much agony? Operations like this with no real anaesthetic....and here it would be considered torture to the degree that the perp would be institutionalised...possibly in Broadmoor. When the chasm between cultures is such that in one country everyone does it, in another you get sent to a mental institution, its possible to see why there is so much worldly strife. You don't have to be educated to be averse to extreme pain and agony.

    I do wonder though, whether we demonise too much. Easy for me to say, but one thing i certainly don't believe is that people do this to their daughter's out of spite or a desire to cause pain. Perhaps pain just means something very different in different places. I get giddy when i stub my toe. Harder lives; stronger pain thresholds?
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    why dont any of these women speak up, and just say NO?!
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    (Original post by nexttime)
    Its a perfectly good argument - we, of course (hopefully), find it pretty disgusting, but that's because we haven't grown up in an environment where it is acceptable.

    Not on the same level, clearly, but what do you think a culture that doesn't pierce ears would think of us?
    clearly we very likely wouldn't find it disgusting if we had grown up in that culture- as we have just seen in those videos- but that doesn't mean we should sit snug in the armchair of moral relativism and shrug our shoulders at barbaric practices in other cultures.

    I don't think genital mutilation is disgusting because I haven't grown up with it- and I find it very insulting to my culture that people would suggest that. I think that argument works for things that really are morally neutral- bodily piercing is not medically harmful, and it is not forced upon anyone. in the same way, nakedness, meal times and the colour of police cars or traditional wedding clothes is purely cultural, but beating or otherwise abusing women, persecution or social exclusion or homosexuals, gun crime, drugs and violence are not something that is 'just a matter or taste'.

    certainly you have to understand every cultural problem or aspect in context (as was recently demonstrated with this controversy about human rights and democracy in china), but I think brushing practices like genital mutilation off as 'cultural' is an insult to all the women in those countries who are clearly suffering, and having their right to make their own decisions denied.

    if no-one questions or critiques society (their own as much as others)- civilisation will never develop- we would still be living in the middle ages where anyone would be liable to be tortured or killed if they got on the wrong side of the right people- similarly, I think all societies would have moved on a lot quicker if more people had refused to take the status quo for granted- and that might have spared millions of people throughout histories suffering (this is all hypothetical, of course this would never happen.

    I'm curious- would you argue the same for past cultures- certainly if you'd been born in ancient greece or Rome you would have found slavery quite normal (thought you might not have felt so indifferent if you were a slave) and you would have been used to burning at the stake if you lived in the 15th or 16th century- but does that mean it would have been perfectly fine for you to accept it?
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    Having a vag sewn up or a clit removed is slightly different from getting your ears pierced.

    Are the any medical arguments put forward for female circumcision like there are for male?

    Islam Q & A: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/45528

    Could you explain me what is the medical benefit of girl’s circumcision?.

    Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

    Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

    The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

    Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

    Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

    Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

    Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

    Then Dr al-Ghawaabi refutes those who claim that female circumcision leads to frigidity by noting:

    Frigidity has many causes, and this claim is not based on any sound statistics comparing circumcised women with uncircumcised women, except in the case of Pharaonic circumcision which is where the clitoris is excised completely. This does in fact lead to frigidity but it is contrary to the kind of circumcision enjoined by the Prophet of mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said: “Do not destroy” i.e., do not uproot or excise. This alone is evidence that speaks for itself, because medicine at that time knew very little about this sensitive organ (the clitoris) and its nerves.

    From Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls).

    The female gynaecologist Sitt al-Banaat Khaalid says in an article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat Ru’yah Sihhiyyah (Female circumcision from a health point of view):

    For us in the Muslim world female circumcision is, above all else, obedience to Islam, which means acting in accordance with the fitrah and following the Sunnah which encourages it. We all know the dimensions of Islam, and that everything in it must be good in all aspects, including health aspects. If the benefits are not apparent now, they will become known in the future, as has happened with regard to male circumcision – the world now knows its benefits and it has become widespread among all nations despite the opposition of some groups.

    Then she mentioned some of the health benefits of female circumcision and said:

    It takes away excessive libido from women

    It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

    It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

    It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

    In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

    With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.
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    F*** Religion.
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    havent read the whole thread but im gonna point out that many boys are circumsized at birth.....55% in america, i know its not the same but this is traditionally/historically done without anaesthetic
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    (Original post by lɪŋgwɪst)
    Hmm, well I think a lot of Sociology and Psychology teachers/lecturers would disagree with you. The ones I had would, anyway.
    so what?
    academics disagree all the time- it is perfectly legitimate for any one- academic or not- to disagree with another view or theory
    this isn't a question of expertise- this is a question of human compassion
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    (Original post by biolojee)
    Having a vag sewn up or a clit removed is slightly different from getting your ears pierced.

    Are the any medical arguments put forward for female circumcision like there are for male?

    Islam Q & A: http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/45528

    Could you explain me what is the medical benefit of girl’s circumcision?.

    Female circumcision has not been prescribed for no reason, rather there is wisdom behind it and it brings many benefits.

    Mentioning some of these benefits, Dr. Haamid al-Ghawaabi says:

    The secretions of the labia minora accumulate in uncircumcised women and turn rancid, so they develop an unpleasant odour which may lead to infections of the vagina or urethra. I have seen many cases of sickness caused by the lack of circumcision.

    Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse.

    Another benefit of circumcision is that it prevents stimulation of the clitoris which makes it grow large in such a manner that it causes pain.

    Circumcision prevents spasms of the clitoris which are a kind of inflammation.

    Circumcision reduces excessive sexual desire.

    Then Dr al-Ghawaabi refutes those who claim that female circumcision leads to frigidity by noting:

    Frigidity has many causes, and this claim is not based on any sound statistics comparing circumcised women with uncircumcised women, except in the case of Pharaonic circumcision which is where the clitoris is excised completely. This does in fact lead to frigidity but it is contrary to the kind of circumcision enjoined by the Prophet of mercy (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he said: “Do not destroy” i.e., do not uproot or excise. This alone is evidence that speaks for itself, because medicine at that time knew very little about this sensitive organ (the clitoris) and its nerves.

    From Liwa’ al-Islam magazine, issue 8 and 10; article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat (circumcision of girls).

    The female gynaecologist Sitt al-Banaat Khaalid says in an article entitled Khitaan al-Banaat Ru’yah Sihhiyyah (Female circumcision from a health point of view):

    For us in the Muslim world female circumcision is, above all else, obedience to Islam, which means acting in accordance with the fitrah and following the Sunnah which encourages it. We all know the dimensions of Islam, and that everything in it must be good in all aspects, including health aspects. If the benefits are not apparent now, they will become known in the future, as has happened with regard to male circumcision – the world now knows its benefits and it has become widespread among all nations despite the opposition of some groups.

    Then she mentioned some of the health benefits of female circumcision and said:

    It takes away excessive libido from women

    It prevents unpleasant odours which result from foul secretions beneath the prepuce.

    It reduces the incidence of urinary tract infections

    It reduces the incidence of infections of the reproductive system.

    In the book on Traditions that affect the health of women and children, which was published by the World Health Organization in 1979 it says:

    With regard to the type of female circumcision which involves removal of the prepuce of the clitoris, which is similar to male circumcision, no harmful health effects have been noted.
    This practise in encouraged by Islam? =/

    Still, good to know 'annoying to the husband' is a reason for mutilation.
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    (Original post by junglemonkey)
    Luckily nowadays though, they are done in hospital with a lovely general anaesthetic and good medical care.

    I don't think the same can be said for FGM done in Somalia.

    indeed, but we dont look back upon it with such contempt



    im not defending FGM here, im just putting things in perspective (maybe for the sake of it )
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    (Original post by WezDawg)
    This practise in encouraged by Islam? =/
    "Circumcision reduces excessive sensitivity of the clitoris which may cause it to increase in size to 3 centimeters when aroused, which is very annoying to the husband, especially at the time of intercourse."

    .... Never met a man who's been annoyed by a clit.
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    (Original post by sabka7)
    why dont any of these women speak up, and just say NO?!
    Sadly, these women have no chance to speak out, its so depressing as this usually occurs in my parent's country of origin.
 
 
 
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