Women naturally subservient to men? Watch

Zweihander
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#101
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#101
(Original post by Porscha!)
Protection - hmmm again rather interesting, I can't really go on anyone elses views apart from my own as I've no proof of anyone elses view on this, so I ask purely out of interest where your view of "most women would prefer to have a man there to protect them all the same"? As this is your view of "most women" and not I presume from personal experience?
Most women (out of women all over the globe) ARE NOT feminists, and by 'feminist' I mean women who believe that men and women should be treated equally. The traditional idea that women are inferior to men is still very dominant in most cultures in the world, and most women just accept it. Which is why I can say most women would prefer to have a man there to protect them. Also think of it rationally, would you rather get into a fight yourself and be forced to defend yourself or have someone else there to do it for you?

ps. you should use the quote button, seeing someone quote you is like a small ego boost :P
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VanillaLatte
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#102
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#102
obviously, my only purpose in life is cooking, cleaning, doing the laundry and get some kids so my husband is happy. if id get an own job, my own money, being indepndent, goosh, i dont think i could handle that^^

u know that there are statistics for pretty much anything, right?? i read one on bbc about ppl in wales being the happiest in the whole of the uk and scotland being depressed, smoking doesnt influence cancer that much, and blow jobs cause canser so i probably wouldnt rely on something like that^^
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interobang
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#103
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#103
(Original post by lethal alive)
I dont know, I dont think it is necessarily gender, i can think of men who are subservient to women and women who dominate over men. Its more a personality thing. :dontknow: though
True.
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Zweihander
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#104
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#104
(Original post by interrobang)
Arguably, as most societies have been either agrarian (certainly in some cases for well over a thousand years) or (more recently) industrial, neither of which require hunter gathering, invoking the idea of a 'hunt' is meaningless. In an agrarian society both men and women have to work in the field to produce enough food.
That doesnt disprove what I said. When I say "hunt" you're thinking actually physically going out and killing animals for food, but like I said as society has evolved the "hunt" has also evolved. Practically every single society since the dawn of man has used the traditional gender roles of the man going out into the world to work/gather, and the woman taking care of the home. Agrarian society is no different.

(Original post by interrobang)
Also, whether you have a financially rewarding or powerful position in society isn't determined by your gender, but talent and luck.
Are you f***king kidding me? You're saying the difference between a rich banker and a bum on the street is luck? Get real. I never said that your position in society was determined by your gender, what I said was that your position in society determines your desirability.
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Ella_
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#105
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#105
I like having a big strong man to look after and "protect" me and I like to make him happy. I like looking after a man but not being subserviant in the way that he'd think he's more important than me or anything, I'd want to have his respect and for him to buy nice gifts and just treat me really nicely because he loves me and values me and hold a high opinion of me, not think of me as just some slave that cooks and cleans for him and not bother about my feelings. Basically what I'm saying is I'm fine with women being subserviant to men as long as men cherish us for who we are and what we do, similar to how they would do their mother.
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Zweihander
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#106
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#106
(Original post by Flic89)
Whatever keeps women all over the world notably beneath men, themselves, or men's attitudes we don't know. Even very intelligent men (Rosseau, Dickens, Freud) believe women should be submissive. One question. If women were naturally submissive why the conscious almost angry effort to keep them down? What's with the cold, hard male streak that wants to keep women beneath them?
Also feministas... You can't just say most women are/ aren't feminists. Do women want a world where they're not oppressed, disadvantaged? Most women do, but they don't think of it as feminism. There's an indignity in every woman about their lot, what their worth is reduced to. Whether she's a million miles from being a labelled feminist or not. Every woman wants to be taken seriously, every woman wants to feel powerful, influential. With sexism trying to reduce women and their value ultimately to dust, every woman is a feminist in wanting these attitudes to no longer be obstacles. But women might react narcissistically to attention, they might become *****es... we all have our own way of responding to sexism. All women are feminist.
Well considering that some of of the most vehement opposition to the rise of feminism was from women themselves, no, not all women are feminist. Also, there are still a lot of religious people in the world today (and thus a lot of religious women) who firmly believe in the traditional gender roles that have been interwoven into their religion. The fact that women are considered inferior to men does not necessarily mean they are not respected. It does not necessarily mean they have to be disadvantaged or oppressed.
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Porscha!
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#107
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#107
(Original post by Zweihander)
Most women (out of women all over the globe) ARE NOT feminists, and by 'feminist' I mean women who believe that men and women should be treated equally. The traditional idea that women are inferior to men is still very dominant in most cultures in the world, and most women just accept it. Which is why I can say most women would prefer to have a man there to protect them. Also think of it rationally, would you rather get into a fight yourself and be forced to defend yourself or have someone else there to do it for you?

ps. you should use the quote button, seeing someone quote you is like a small ego boost :P
Inferior - this is an extremely interesting word in itself. Question for men here - if you are to view women as inferior how could you ever love one who you see as being "an inferior" to yourself?

I'm actually challenging here - what is inferior? Is inferior not working and being the homemaker? I don't think it is, as this has already been challenged as two people doing two different roles to create the best relationship. Though I will be the first to admit being rather ignorant to history as I have never studied it in depth, what I'm trying to say is - has the modern world rightly or wrongly took a view that in the past women where looked on as being inferiors? (Hope what I'm trying to say is understood, as I'm finding this rather difficult to explain)

Get into a fight - well for a start I would not want to actively pursue getting into a fight I would try to stop any situation getting that far, we are presuming here that it does - that simple answer is that I would rather defend myself as not defending myself would be going against what I personally believe in, I simply could not stand by and watch someone get hurt for my views because I wanted to be defended, to be protected if you wish, if you can't stand up to the consequence don't get yourself caught up in the situation.

p.s. Would love someone to press "quote" for me LOL, will take your comment on board, I belong to another forum ( ABRSM (music exam board) and when you press quote everyones quote comes up and you end up with a page just full of previous quotes!:eek3:) Hope this has given you your little ego boost for the day, me being a serial non-quoter and all that!!:woo:
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Flic89
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#108
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#108
(Original post by Ella_)
I like having a big strong man to look after and "protect" me and I like to make him happy. I like looking after a man but not being subserviant in the way that he'd think he's more important than me or anything, I'd want to have his respect and for him to buy nice gifts and just treat me really nicely because he loves me and values me and hold a high opinion of me, not think of me as just some slave that cooks and cleans for him and not bother about my feelings. Basically what I'm saying is I'm fine with women being subserviant to men as long as men cherish us for who we are and what we do, similar to how they would do their mother.
Men cherish women up until the age of 30.. then what makes you think you're still cute and cherishable. Ew :rolleyes:
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interobang
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#109
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#109
(Original post by Zweihander)
That doesnt disprove what I said. When I say "hunt" you're thinking actually physically going out and killing animals for food, but like I said as society has evolved the "hunt" has also evolved. Practically every single society since the dawn of man has used the traditional gender roles of the man going out into the world to work/gather, and the woman taking care of the home. Agrarian society is no different.
Generally in agrarian societies everyone has to work in the fields, men, women and children. In which case your idea of 'the hunt' breaks down. Also, saying it has 'evolved' just allows its meaning to change so much it no longer has any validity in any argument.


(Original post by Zweihander)
Are you f***king kidding me? You're saying the difference between a rich banker and a bum on the street is luck? Get real. I never said that your position in society was determined by your gender, what I said was that your position in society determines your desirability.
I think you'll find I said talent and luck. Care to enlighten me about what else determines your position in society?
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Zweihander
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#110
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#110
(Original post by Flic89)
Women hate on feminism so that they are not at the bottom of the rung as women - they are women who hate on women's rights, so are slightly higher up in the patriarchy.
I can agree that there were probably some women who did that, but I very much doubt that was the primary factor in women's opposition to feminism.

(Original post by interrobang)
Generally in agrarian societies everyone has to work in the fields, men, women and children. In which case your idea of 'the hunt' breaks down. Also, saying it has 'evolved' just allows its meaning to change so much it no longer has any validity in any argument.
"Everyone working in the field" is not a defining characteristic of agrarian society. Agrarian society is just the only society that placed emphasis on the whole family contributing to the family's maintenance. It was a suggestion not a rule. The meaning of the "hunt" hasnt changed over time at all, by the "hunt" I mean the process of acquiring security for one's family, it's just that now that entails different things today than it did a thousand years ago.

(Original post by interrobang)
I think you'll find I said talent and luck. Care to enlighten me about what else determines your position in society?
Talent and individual skill, definitely. Luck (i.e. coincidence) isnt so much of a factor.
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Zweihander
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#111
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#111
(Original post by Flic89)
Look around you at women today, don't rant on a forum about what women in sexist countries are doing, or what women were doing 50 years ago.
My point in mentioning those women was to express that those beliefs still exist today. Of course women are beoming more independent but it's only really in developed politicised countries that have experienced feminism and this modern trend towards political correctness (by 'modern' I mean from the mid 20th century)
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interobang
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#112
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#112
(Original post by Zweihander)
"Everyone working in the field" is not a defining characteristic of agrarian society. Agrarian society is just the only society that placed emphasis on the whole family contributing to the family's maintenance. It was a suggestion not a rule. The meaning of the "hunt" hasnt changed over time at all, by the "hunt" I mean the process of acquiring security for one's family, it's just that now that entails different things today than it did a thousand years ago.
If that's what you mean by 'the hunt', then, in a society in which many women work to support their families, how relevant is it to the question are women naturally subservient to men?

(Original post by Zweihander)
Talent and individual skill, definitely. Luck isnt so much of a factor.
Talent is (hopefully) the most important. Just put luck in there to cover things like how many opportunities are available, whether or not your healthy, chance meetings etc.
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Flic89
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#113
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#113
(Original post by Zweihander)
My point in mentioning those women was to express that those beliefs still exist today. Of course women are beoming more independent but it's only really in developed politicised countries that have experienced feminism and this modern trend towards political correctness (by 'modern' I mean from the mid 20th century)
And that's a good thing and what we're evolving and choosing to do.
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HEJ92
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#114
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#114
(Original post by Kelser)
I like to care for people too but I think gender is completely irrelevant. Making your husband or boyfriend dinner and caring for them does not make you subservient. Giving up everything you aspire to (if your aspirations haven't already been completely destroyed, or you never had any in the first place) to pander to them is. You're not serving them by doing some nice things for them. You should also expect something in return and if you're putting in the effort. If you don't, your generosity and care is being completely abused. Give and take!

Nambi also has a point about the tribes. There's also instances where women are pandered to during part of their menstural cycle. Works both ways.
I never expect anything in return, the happiness I get from making others happy is reward enough
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Silver_Fox
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#115
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#115
(Original post by lrH5)
Do you think this statement is true.

Many would dismiss this a a foolish theory, but many well known philosphers have argued this case, e.g. Rousseau: "The whole education of women ought to relate to men. To please men, to be useful to them . . ."

And do you think women are happier being subservient or not. Recent surveys show these days men are happier than women: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/...n3299143.shtml

And if women are not subservient, why is it that the man is supposed to be the dominant one?


If these theories of subservience are wrong, why are women now reporting to be less happier than they were before?

Discuss.
Where is your evidence proving that women used to be happier? I happen to have done some research on women's place in society in the last 400 years and how it has changed. Women were most certainly not happier years ago!!!!!!!!!!! In the past women had short lives (cut short because of death during labour), they suffered terrible illnesses and even then many had to work as well as looking after the home. Because they were considered inferior to men they did not have the same opportunities as men and I would say that would have made them pretty unhappy. I would not say they led happy lives being subservient to men. I would be interested to know your sources proving they were happier...

Women have throughout history been considered as inferior to men. Ancient theories of medicine, for example, taught that women are lesser forms of men. In my opinion these theories are the product of several different factors both social and biological. Evidence suggests women were prone to more illnesses than men which would have supported the idea that they were inferior. Add to that the fact that they carried the child would have suggested that they were weaker and that their place was looking after the baby. This in itself would have suggested that women have a caring, nurturing role and that their place is to look after both children and the men. Then add to that the fact that men would want to protect their status and their jobs by refusing to allow women to compete against them in the job market (hence why there was resistance to women becoming doctors).
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Porscha!
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#116
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Silver Fox, thankyou for the historical explaination as I said earlier I will admit to being rather ignorant to history!

Very interesting that women were prone to more illness years ago, I believed the opposite to be true - men more prone to illness.
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Flic89
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#117
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#117
(Original post by HEJ92)
I never expect anything in return, the happiness I get from making others happy is reward enough
That's your life choice and it's nice, in an admittedly out-dated and creepy way. But don't judge other women for actually wanting to keep their own ass and not expecting men to work for them. Women seem to be having this battle fought over their bodies both males and females strongly want to have a say in, what we're meant to be doing, whether we should even have careers, whether we should feel bad for looking after our bloke. Just remember the one thing we have is choice, and the ability to make whatever we choose work for us, and not be something we have to be insecure about. The career- swinging lawyer should be just as proud and happy as the forty year old divorced mother of four. It's about choice remember :rolleyes:
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Beckiemort
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#118
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#118
(Original post by Jelephant)
Maybe they're less happy because they've finally had enough of sexist men? Or the fact they get paid less for doing the exact same job with the exact same qualifications and skills? Or that even if they wanted a job they can't because they're stuck looking after children with no babycare facilities? And then if they do get employed, as soon as they're pregnant they're fired? Or they want to be seen as a human insead of a pair of boobs? Or that if they don't get married and have kids by 30 they're seen as failures, but if they have too many kids/ failed relationships/ skirts they are seen as little more than a prostitute? I wonder why we're so bloody depressed, eh? :p:
*claps* awesome, that was very eloquently stated.

Also women were not actually always subservient to men. Matriarchal societies exsisted in Aurthurian times as well as before and after, it is just our societies that for some unknown reason believe that the man is better.
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HEJ92
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#119
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(Original post by Flic89)
That's your life choice and it's nice, in an admittedly out-dated and creepy way. But don't judge other women for actually wanting to keep their own ass and not expecting men to work for them. Women seem to be having this battle fought over their bodies both males and females strongly want to have a say in, what we're meant to be doing, whether we should even have careers, whether we should feel bad for looking after our bloke. Just remember the one thing we have is choice, and the ability to make whatever we choose work for us, and not be something we have to be insecure about. The career- swinging lawyer should be just as proud and happy as the forty year old divorced mother of four. It's about choice remember :rolleyes:
Read my first post... I don't judge any other women for wanting to be independant... I said before I respect their determination and ambition.

And I want my own life obviously, but I still want to be there for my husband and make him happy. I want to be a midwife.. because I like helping people. And hope to help everyone I meet as best I can
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Flic89
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#120
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(Original post by HEJ92)
Read my first post... I don't judge any other women for wanting to be independant... I said before I respect their determination and ambition.

And I want my own life obviously, but I still want to be there for my husband and make him happy. I want to be a midwife.. because I like helping people. And hope to help everyone I meet as best I can
Well that's good...
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