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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Hamas control the style of haircuts in Gaza.

    I think they can control a Health Ministry, given that the Health Minister is a Hamas guy :rolleyes:
    So you prefer to believe all the photographic evidence of civilian deaths are fake and all news reports, such as the bombing of children playing on a beach which many journalists witnessed, are all fake?

    Or do you believe that a lower figure is far more acceptable for civilian deaths?:lolwut:
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    (Original post by getfunky!)
    So you prefer to believe all the photographic evidence of civilian deaths are fake and all news reports, such as the bombing of children playing on a beach which many journalists witnessed, are all fake?

    Or do you believe that a lower figure is far more acceptable for civilian deaths?:lolwut:
    Oh dear, look at you going off on tangents throwing haymakers.

    The issue is number of civilian deaths/percentage.

    No one disputes civilians have died. You're probably more likely to win the lottery than have zero civilian casualties in Gaza, given its dense nature and Hamas using civilian homes. Mosques, Hospitals etc to fire from.

    The issue is the number of.

    Given Hamas' track record of lying to the UN and media about casualty figures and the rather easy nature of turning a combatant into a civilian by removing his ski mask, I remain highly sceptical of the Hamas figures and the UN parroting them.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    If they're used for rocket fire, they're legitimate targets
    And when they aren't? And when there are alternatives resulting in less collateral?
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    Obviously Gaza.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Question: since 'palestinians' have never laid a brick to build Jerusalem, just where do you get your chutzpah claiming it as your city?
    sorry but I do not know what chutzpah means. Arabs have lived in Jerusalem and all of the land currently called Israel and Palestine for hundreds if not thousands of years.

    It is true, a hundred years ago nationalism was not prominent. People did not call this land Palestine unless they were talking about the geographical location, not the people. the people were Arabs and nomads with no nationality, but does that mean they do not deserve to live in Palestine because they never named it theirs? This precarious question is rhetorical. the answer is too simple, but just incase you do not understand, I will give an example. Aboriginals lived in Australia all by themselves. They did not call it Australia, and they did not have a national identity because the theory of nationalism did not reach them. Does this mean they deserved being slaughtered, or thrown into interment camps? obviously not. Here a similar apartheid issue is occurring. The most recent natives (no one can trace back far enough to know who are the real natives) deserve the right to live here just as much, if not more than, the new occupier.

    I would also like to add that the Arabs were on the land during the time of the British mandates, Ottoman empire, Roman Empire, and possibly also have ties to the Canaanites who were on this land the same time the Jews were. though the Palestinian land has been occupied by different powers for many years does not mean that the people on the land were not Arab. they were Arab, but they were just ruled by different powers. Therefore Arabs did build the cities.

    I stated in the last paragraph that Arabs MAY be tied to the Canaanites who ruled before/simultaneously against/alongside the Jews. they reason that I said MAY is because no one can tie their bloodlines back that far. Neither Arabs, nor Jews have real claims. the claim the Zionists have to the land is preposterous. Their blood is mixed with every type of European. There is no pure blooded Israeli, and when the Prophet Mohammad came many former Jews converted to Islam and intermingled with the Arabs. All this means that no one is "jewish enough" to claim that their forfathers actually lived here. My reason for stating all this blood-line stuff is simple (I am not racist, and the whole idea is silly, but it had to be brought up inorder to prove it invalid): no one has proof that his group was here first, and its pointless for either side to make this claim.

    The real solution is to live together. This is not happening because Arabs are upset with the Israelis for forcefully taking their land, and the Israelis haveno real goal to live with them equally (the citizens might, but the government doesn't). Im sorry, I would go on longer, but there is too much to say. I hope that you got my point.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    And when they aren't? And when there are alternatives resulting in less collateral?
    It's a conflict, people die.

    Just like when NATO struck a hospital in Serbia. Or hit a column of refugees killing 70 people.

    Or when Americans killed a bunch of Brits in Gulf War 1.


    As an Israeli minister said non Sky news, there is a very simple formula to stop this.

    Halt rocket attacks and Israeli action halts.

    It really can't be any simpler than that.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    It's a conflict, people die.

    Just like when NATO struck a hospital in Serbia. Or hit a column of refugees killing 70 people.

    Or when Americans killed a bunch of Brits in Gulf War 1.
    Tu Quoque


    As an Israeli minister said non Sky news, there is a very simple formula to stop this.

    Halt rocket attacks and Israeli action halts.

    It really can't be any simpler than that.
    But the responsibility of Israel is to limit civilian casualties where possible, something it is failing dismally at. And stop skirting around the question.
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    (Original post by Chindits)
    Oh dear, look at you going off on tangents throwing haymakers.

    The issue is number of civilian deaths/percentage.

    No one disputes civilians have died. You're probably more likely to win the lottery than have zero civilian casualties in Gaza, given its dense nature and Hamas using civilian homes. Mosques, Hospitals etc to fire from.

    The issue is the number of.

    Given Hamas' track record of lying to the UN and media about casualty figures and the rather easy nature of turning a combatant into a civilian by removing his ski mask, I remain highly sceptical of the Hamas figures and the UN parroting them.
    You really need to stop making an utter fool of yourself if you expect to be taken seriously. What in the world would be the UN's reason for 'parroting' Hamas figures?

    You've got it all wrong. It is not Hamas who has a track record for lying, but the Israeli government - for lying, deceiving, murdering, all sorts of unsavoury activities that would have, and indeed have in the very recent past, warranted regime change in a country other than Israel.

    It is simply untrue that Hamas 'hides' in civilian areas. You seem to be unaware that during the American war in Vietnam, the Americans made up any and every argument to justify bloodthirsty murder. They said exactly what Zionists say today, that they were being FORCED to murder civilians against their will. It is part of warfare to concoct a deliberate strategy calculated to justify murder, in this cause resulting in wiping out an entire people and advancing the borders, something you very much applaud.

    There is NO evidence for that claim. Provide PROOF if you want us to believe your lies. And NO, IDF propaganda does NOT constitute PROOF.
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    Israel-Gaza conflict: The myth of Hamas’s human shield

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    (Original post by ahmadalkarute)
    sorry but I do not know what chutzpah means. Arabs have lived in Jerusalem and all of the land currently called Israel and Palestine for hundreds if not thousands of years.
    "thousands" is an exaggeration as Arabs (in terms of people speaking Arabic) are relatively new people compared to the indigenous Jews.

    I think Arabic first appears around 2,000 years after Jews had already established themselves in the land of Israel.


    It is true, a hundred years ago nationalism was not prominent. People did not call this land Palestine unless they were talking about the geographical location, not the people. the people were Arabs and nomads with no nationality, but does that mean they do not deserve to live in Palestine because they never named it theirs?
    Well, it kind of does? you can't just create a people from thin air and claim land that you did not build, own or govern.

    Jews at least had a state. You have never had a country or a state. Yet somehow are trying to get a 'country' than you never had.

    This precarious question is rhetorical. the answer is too simple, but just incase you do not understand, I will give an example. Aboriginals lived in Australia all by themselves. They did not call it Australia, and they did not have a national identity because the theory of nationalism did not reach them. Does this mean they deserved being slaughtered, or thrown into interment camps?
    Your analogy is false. Jews were there before 'palestinians' so THEY are the Aboriginals. They pre-date Arabs, they pre-date the Arabic language, they pre-date Islam and were there thousands of years before anyone had ever heard of a 'palestinian'.

    I stated in the last paragraph that Arabs MAY be tied to the Canaanites who ruled before/simultaneously against/alongside the Jews. they reason that I said MAY is because no one can tie their bloodlines back that far. Neither Arabs, nor Jews have real claims. the claim the Zionists have to the land is preposterous. Their blood is mixed with every type of European. There is no pure blooded Israeli,
    So please explain why a 'palestinian' who speaks with an Egyptian dialect in Gaza and whose surname is "Al-Masri" which translates to 'The Egyptian' is somehow a 'palestinain'

    There is no 'palestinian' blood, you've pretty much admitted that.

    The real solution is to live together. This is not happening because Arabs are upset with the Israelis for forcefully taking their land, and the Israelis haveno real goal to live with them equally (the citizens might, but the government doesn't). Im sorry, I would go on longer, but there is too much to say. I hope that you got my point.
    Well, Israelis live with over a million Arabs in Israel, so they have no problems doing that. How many Jews would be safe to live without military protection in Arab areas of Judea and Samaria?

    I'm sure you're aware of how much history the Jews have in the West Bank. I know 'palestinians' have tried to destroy some of it or claim it as their own.

    I don't have a problem with Arabs living there. I have a problem with the new identity of 'palestinians' and pretending to be an indigenous 'palestinain' people.

    Anyway, I'm not sure I want to enter a long debate as this thread is now more 'news' related due to the current crisis.

    Appreciate your response though and stay safe.



    ---


    Israeli soldiers find rocket launchers next to school

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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    There is much evidence to believe that the Israeli army targets civilians. No wonder, as it constitutes predominantly of neo-nationalist fascists.

    There is no evidence at all of Hamas 'hiding among populace to provoke this kind of response'; you Zionists just keep parroting this over and over, but never provide substantial proof for this claim. It is null.

    How many countries were built on the skulls of dead Palestinians? How many countries are currently occupying land unlawfully on only religious grounds, demolishing homes to build new ones to fill them with foreigners who have no claim to the land whatsoever, arresting people and imprisoning them for no reason except a paranoia on their own part? How many people are oppressing their neighbouring country folk every day of the year? How many countries are operating a blockade on one the most densely populated areas of the earth, disallowing for betterment of livelihood for the millions of people living there, in addition to sporadically going crazy there by bombing the life out of the people of that area?
    'Hamas intends to wipe out Israel' - do you have proof for that, or are you simply conveying what you lapped up from the Zionist hasbara? Hamas has made Hamas's intentions clear, and Hamas's immediate intentions are certainly not to wipe out Israel.
    That said, if Hamas is a legitimate target simply because they do not believe in Israel's right to exist, then I too am a lawful target, because I do not believe that Israel has the right to plonk itself right smack on top of land stolen illegally and immorally from its previous owners.

    The nations surrounding Israel today are far from hostile to it. Israel is NOT the victim, and never was. Israel/Zionism means to exploit the Jews' oppression for its own worldly, distasteful good.
    Israel is the oppressor, the coloniser, the murderer.
    I find it deeply ironic that you accuse me of blindly parroting the 'Zionist propaganda' despite the fact that I have previously stated that I do not believe that Israel should have been created, and if you are too blind to notice that many of the rockets being fired at Israel are coming from densely populated areas, or if you think that that is a coincidence, then I feel sorry for you. That is what truly infuriates me about conspiracy theorists who believe that 'The Jews control everything!'. You are happy to accuse others of blindly lapping up propaganda but are unable to recognise that you are simply lapping up the propaganda from a different source. I might be a hypocrite, but at least I realise it. Do you?
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    (Original post by Unruly Marmite)
    I find it deeply ironic that you accuse me of blindly parroting the 'Zionist propaganda' despite the fact that I have previously stated that I do not believe that Israel should have been created, and if you are too blind to notice that many of the rockets being fired at Israel are coming from densely populated areas, or if you think that that is a coincidence, then I feel sorry for you. That is what truly infuriates me about conspiracy theorists who believe that 'The Jews control everything!'. You are happy to accuse others of blindly lapping up propaganda but are unable to recognise that you are simply lapping up the propaganda from a different source. I might be a hypocrite, but at least I realise it. Do you?
    Whether or not you believe Israel should have been created is irrelevant in light of everything else that you said.
    'I might be a hypocrite, but at least I realise it' - good for you, I suppose. I'm no hypocrite; there is no Palestinian Hasbara, hence why there is no propaganda for me to lap up.
    I also don't know how your infuriating comment that I'm a conspiracy theorist who believes that 'Jews control everything' has any basis or is relevant to this argument.

    The whole of Gaza is densely populated, some parts obviously more so, some less. Israel strikes them all, indiscriminately.
    The beach on which little boys were playing football was certainly not densely populated, but it was struck nevertheless.
    Fact is, you have NO evidence to support your claim. I honestly couldn't care less if you feel sorry for me for not noticing what is obvious to you; your sorrow would be better directed elsewhere: at the dying innocents in Gaza, for instance. I don't know how you can clear your conscience by supporting the bloodbath Israel is orchestrating in Gaza by claiming that Israel is not to blame for it, but Hamas is. You have zero evidence to support your claim.
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    (Original post by Unruly Marmite)
    I find it deeply ironic that you accuse me of blindly parroting the 'Zionist propaganda' despite the fact that I have previously stated that I do not believe that Israel should have been created, and if you are too blind to notice that many of the rockets being fired at Israel are coming from densely populated areas, or if you think that that is a coincidence, then I feel sorry for you. That is what truly infuriates me about conspiracy theorists who believe that 'The Jews control everything!'. You are happy to accuse others of blindly lapping up propaganda but are unable to recognise that you are simply lapping up the propaganda from a different source. I might be a hypocrite, but at least I realise it. Do you?
    Here:
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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    Whether or not you believe Israel should have been created is irrelevant in light of everything else that you said.
    'I might be a hypocrite, but at least I realise it' - good for you, I suppose. I'm no hypocrite; there is no Palestinian Hasbara, hence why there is no propaganda for me to lap up.
    I also don't know how your infuriating comment that I'm a conspiracy theorist who believes that 'Jews control everything' has any basis or is relevant to this argument.

    The whole of Gaza is densely populated, some parts obviously more so, some less. Israel strikes them all, indiscriminately.
    The beach on which little boys were playing football was certainly not densely populated, but it was struck nevertheless.
    Fact is, you have NO evidence to support your claim. I honestly couldn't care less if you feel sorry for me for not noticing what is obvious to you; your sorrow would be better directed elsewhere: at the dying innocents in Gaza, for instance. I don't know how you can clear your conscience by supporting the bloodbath Israel is orchestrating in Gaza by claiming that Israel is not to blame for it, but Hamas is. You have zero evidence to support your claim.
    What claim? That Hamas knows full well that it can rely on people like you to cry out in outrage against Israel 'bombing civilians' simply by firing rockets from inside civilian areas? I am aware that Israel causes Gaza to be heavily populated by keeping the populace inside the borders, but what would you prefer? From the viewpoint of Israel, every man, woman or even child they let across the borders is a potential suicide bomber. And, of course, peace talks would be much easier if Hamas did not insist on firing rockets at Israeli cities...
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    (Original post by well in the dark)
    Here:
    If you're expecting me to change my mind, I don't. Israel warns civilians to move: civilians don't move and get killed in an airstrike. Darwinian in its' simplicity. I don't care if I sound callous, all the outrage in the world won't change what is happening, because neither Hamas nor Israel care. Civilians are caught in the middle. That is the inherent nature of war.
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    Israel can get away with whatever it likes for the same reason America. can. They are bullies, but Israel like America, Britain, France and some other Western nations are under Jewish occupation. You must realise much of these wars they've had us fighting in are Jewish wars. Their fake war on terror that's completely destabilized much of the middle east. This warmongering against Russia which if you didn't notice the politicians who are quick to blame Russia for the crash are Zionists.
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    (Original post by StopJewishWars)
    Israel can get away with whatever it likes for the same reason America. can. They are bullies, but Israel like America, Britain, France and some other Western nations are under Jewish occupation. You must realise much of these wars they've had us fighting in are Jewish wars. Their fake war on terror that's completely destabilized much of the middle east. This warmongering against Russia which if you didn't notice the politicians who are quick to blame Russia for the crash are Zionists.
    the war on terror is meant to bring in a police state and keep us afraid of (false flag ) terrorism and to eventually microchip us
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    (Original post by Unruly Marmite)
    What claim? That Hamas knows full well that it can rely on people like you to cry out in outrage against Israel 'bombing civilians' simply by firing rockets from inside civilian areas? I am aware that Israel causes Gaza to be heavily populated by keeping the populace inside the borders, but what would you prefer? From the viewpoint of Israel, every man, woman or even child they let across the borders is a potential suicide bomber. And, of course, peace talks would be much easier if Hamas did not insist on firing rockets at Israeli cities...
    The claim that Israel is not to blame for deaths but Hamas is, the claim that in spite of obscene numbers of civilian deaths you insist that Israel does as much as possible to prevent that, the persistence notwithstanding the abundance of evidence pointing contrariwise that Israel is justified in its massacre.
    I'd rather not descend into vulgar wrangling; it is obvious that you are hopeless.
    'Of course peace talks would be easier if Hamas etcetera' - I mean, are you seriously serious? Peace talks failed because of Israel's unwillingness to make the most meagre compromises, its adamant insistence that Palestinians submit to the state of Israel at every opportunity. Israel refuses to cease its manufacture of fascist settlers onto Palestinian lands, refuses to cease demolishing Palestinian homes and even when they put up measly tents to live in it clears them out using violence more often than not.
    Israel is a racist state, racist against any one who doesn't support its oppressive Zionist ideology, and that increasingly includes Jewish Israelis. Who gives a **** what the viewpoint of Israelis is? Why, the whole ****ing world, of course. Israelis must be coddled and looked after at the expense of the lives of Palestinians, eh? Disgusting.
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    (Original post by Unruly Marmite)
    If you're expecting me to change my mind, I don't. Israel warns civilians to move: civilians don't move and get killed in an airstrike. Darwinian in its' simplicity. I don't care if I sound callous, all the outrage in the world won't change what is happening, because neither Hamas nor Israel care. Civilians are caught in the middle. That is the inherent nature of war.
    So you see, you brave all the evidence against your case and stick doggedly to your unreasonable view.
    You have still not provided any evidence for your claims against Hamas.
    You talk talk talk about what Hamas wants and does but that's all up in the air unless you provide evidence for what you're saying. You are not providing evidence, which is obviously because you have none. You have absolutely nothing going for your argument bar speculation, and that amounts to nothing in the real world.
 
 
 
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