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    (Original post by JamesNeedHelp2)
    Well it is easy for a non-Muslim to see it as just a drawing. To Muslims however, the prophet has a much more significant importance. You are right, they have every right to offend 1.7 billion muslims, but is it really necessary? It is almost like the analogy were we are situated in a school playground and the bullies are allowed to bully the victim, and most of the victims are willing to take the bullying, except a few that retaliate.
    For the record, the magazine charlie hebdo was not a popular journal nor should it be, it has made some frankly tasteless comment about other faiths , catholisism and judaism particulalrly on the borderline of racism perhaps i other countries ( note howver islamists were bothered about these insults- showing its not the lack of taste or offensivenes in general they had an issue with)
    the bigger issue here is the right of free speech, without which we would all be the mindless unthinking drones that islamists actually want in the world. so its about intellectuallism being attacked by primitive ideologies - ones that view anything 'western' as unislamic. but modern france was built n the ideas of democracy, free speech and intellectualism ( all non islamic ideas), so you have to ask why 10s of millions of practicing muslims have flocked to live there?
    islamists are trying to bully their ideology on human civilisation, but this is not the 8th century, socieites dont sucumb to mindless threats of violence, particualrly not in the west. what have the islamists achieved after allthis? multiplying Charlie hebdos exposure 100 fold and making it even harder for regualr muslism to live outside of islamic countires
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    (Original post by JamesNeedHelp2)
    To Muslims however, the prophet has a much more significant importance.
    Therein lies the problem. They're brainwashed to the extent that a drawing of a long dead paedo drives them to terrorism.

    It is almost like the analogy were we are situated in a school playground and the bullies are allowed to bully the victim, and most of the victims are willing to take the bullying, except a few that retaliate.
    So muslims get to both act violently for no valid reason and play the victim card?
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    Therein lies the problem. They're brainwashed to the extent that a drawing of a long dead paedo drives them to terrorism.


    So muslims get to both act violently for no valid reason and play the victim card?
    All i see in bold above, that is your statements, is your opinion. Opinions dont equate fact. In a intellectual environment, facts are of greatest significance. This is to make sure a credible study and above all, rational conclusion is achieved.
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    im just saying, for any of those who think all muslims are the same you are wrong do not forget that out of all the horrible extremist atttacks, one of them killed over 130 people who were MUSLIM as well. this shows that not all of us are the same and extremists dont care what religion you are even if you are the same as them if you do something they dont like they are against you just remember that before you want to get rid of all of us completely when majority of us are good people

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    (Original post by JamesNeedHelp2)
    In a intellectual environment, facts are detrimental. This is to make sure a credible study and above all, rational conclusion is achieved.
    I just choked on my cheese butty.

    WTF? :confused:
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    (Original post by JamesNeedHelp2)
    All i see in bold above, that is your statements, is your opinion. Opinions dont equate fact. In a intellectual environment, facts are detrimental. This is to make sure a credible study and above all, rational conclusion is achieved.
    Opinion or not, conditioning a group of people to revere -any- person to the extent they would kill because someone drew a picture is wrong.


    Every time a celebrity or politician is caricatured, a living person is being mocked - a person who is possibly a parent, someone's child or parent, sibling ... how often has a cartoonist from the Private Eye been murdered? Would said murderer's actions be seen as rational?
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    (Original post by 6Jesus6Christ6)
    People who believe that there is no higher power than themselves are clearly deluded.
    people who believe in their imaginary "friend" are also clearly deluded

    by the way, with "friends" like that, who needs enemies ?
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    (Original post by Simes)
    I just choked on my cheese butty.

    WTF? :confused:
    Thank you for highlighting my error good sir. It has been fully edited and corrected. No more journalists need to die due my error.
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    (Original post by Skip_Snip)
    Opinion or not, conditioning a group of people to revere -any- person to the extent they would kill because someone drew a picture is wrong.


    Every time a celebrity or politician is caricatured, a living person is being mocked - a person who is possibly a parent, someone's child or parent, sibling ... how often has a cartoonist from the Private Eye been murdered? Would said murderer's actions be seen as rational?
    At no point did i state that it is acceptable to kill journalists for offending muslims around the world. What i did however state was that it is of my opinion, that it is unnesessary to take part in making such offensive drawings, knowing full well the consequences that they may lead to. And as these journalists are responisble for these drawings, i have no sympathy for their actions or the consequences they faced.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    I agree with some of that, but I don't think we can be quite so confident that the anti-'fascist' side is 'winning', given that the Jihadis now have their own country, which they didn't before and are on the edge of having several more. (Yemen and presumably Afghanistan as soon as the US packs up and leaves it to the Taliban.)

    I also don't think that 'Islamofascist' is really all that accurate. What really motivated these people? Hamza is in the mix (perhaps predictably) as are ISIS, but surely we should look at Algeria if we want to really get to the bottom of this. Like Egypt, Algeria originally had a reasonably moderate and idealistic Islamic-tinged democratic movement that was suppressed with the most appalling brutality. The cruelty directed at those who opposed the tyranny of the French-supported government of Algeria over many years is amongst the worst of any country in the world. Against that background, is it totally surprising that young men from poor backgrounds with few prospects in a country that practises public contempt and hate for their religion almost as a state-sanctioned activity and who must be fully aware of the history of their country are extremely angry?

    They are prey to every passing fanatic with a plausible message aimed at giving them some feeling of worthiness and meeting their desire for revenge.

    I am not condoning their actions, but there is so much ignorance on this in France and here. The French would prefer to forget their imperialistic oppression of Algeria and also choose to permit vitriolic attacks on Muslim beliefs as a way of life. Is that right?
    I think Islamofascists is an accurate description. Nevermind 'anger' from French colonisation of Algeria which ended in 1962. I am not denying that French tactics and reprisals for FLN terrorist bombings in Algeria and mainland France, during that period of history were ruthless. The Kouachi brothers were born in France 20 years after that. If Islamofascists hate the values and freedoms embraced by France, they should go live in a place that holds the same values as them. But hang on a minute, they would rather concentrate on ruining the lives of others in a country they grew up in but never assimilated into. The Kouachi brothers chose the path of carnage and terror. They are completely responsible for their actions, which were cold-blooded and indefensible. They were very bad people who have shattered families and murdered innocents.
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    (Original post by Rajina.0)
    Don't let actions of certain Muslims cloud your judgement about the entire Muslim population. Just like the KKK don't represent all Christians, terrorists don't represent all muslims..
    Hi Rajina.O
    You seem to have misunderstood and misinterpreted my post. There are several million Muslims in France- when I said 'backlash' I simply meant well, a backlash; have a look at the Commisson on British Musims and Islamophobia and what thousands of British Muslims were subjected to post 9/11, also the 7/7 backlash.

    I really don't get your post - my judgement is definitely not clouded
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    (Original post by JamesNeedHelp2)
    I am intrigued to know what your opinion is on this issue?
    I feel that this attack was done by extremist Islamic terrorists to cause us to fear them if we speak out against their religion.

    That does not mean that all Muslims are bad people because they aren't. You cannot blame an entire group of people for an individual's action.

    I also believe that we must condemn those who take their anger out of the innocent Muslims who have done nothing wrong. We must condemn them as much as we do so for the terrorist. Harming innocent people is never justified.

    I think that sums it up pretty well.

    Were you expecting something more bigoted?
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    (Original post by DiddyDec)
    I feel that this attack was done by extremist Islamic terrorists to cause us to fear them if we speak out against their religion.

    That does not mean that all Muslims are bad people because they aren't. You cannot blame an entire group of people for an individual's action.

    I also believe that we must condemn those who take their anger out of the innocent Muslims who have done nothing wrong. We must condemn them as much as we do so for the terrorist. Harming innocent people is never justified.

    I think that sums it up pretty well.

    Were you expecting something more bigoted?
    I cant really fault what you have expressed above. No, not really. I dont judge someone that i have never had a discussion with before.
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    (Original post by JamesNeedHelp2)
    I cant really fault what you have expressed above. No, not really. I dont judge someone that i have never had a discussion with before.
    I would have done. It is the most nationalistic thing I have ever written.
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    (Original post by clh_hilary)
    Why do you go out of your way to quote a post not directed to you and offend me with all your insults? :confused:
    Freedom of speech works both ways, don't cry just because your illogical behaviour is being illuminated.
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    (Original post by mariachi)
    people who believe in their imaginary "friend" are also clearly deluded

    by the way, with "friends" like that, who needs enemies ?
    Whatever kid, if you haven't grown out of atheism by the age of 20, don't expect to make any meaningful mental progress.
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    (Original post by Marco1)
    I think Islamofascists is an accurate description. Nevermind 'anger' from French colonisation of Algeria which ended in 1962. I am not denying that French tactics and reprisals for FLN terrorist bombings in Algeria and mainland France, during that period of history were ruthless. The Kouachi brothers were born in France 20 years after that. If Islamofascists hate the values and freedoms embraced by France, they should go live in a place that holds the same values as them. But hang on a minute, they would rather concentrate on ruining the lives of others in a country they grew up in but never assimilated into. The Kouachi brothers chose the path of carnage and terror. They are completely responsible for their actions, which were cold-blooded and indefensible. They were very bad people who have shattered innocent families and murdered innocents.
    Clearly they are responsible. However, when we look at at least one of the brothers in earlier material, he comes across as basically a sweet, well-meaning guy. Drastic things have happened in the past to set someone up like that to be so receptive to messages of hate and violence. I am of course not saying it's justified, but I am intrigued by the background to this. We are being sold a French propaganda message - this is all about liberty and equality - vs - medievalism - but it isn't that, at all. It's at least partly about the recent legacy of European colonialism in Africa and the Middle East and at least partly about the French role in it and the refusal of France to address these things.

    They were born in France, but of Muslim Algerian parentage. Algerian violence did not end when the country formally gained 'independence', indeed, it intensified and the country has been wracked with bloodletting ever since. In many aspects, it is strikingly similar to Egypt, another place where Western-backed governments have brutally suppressed Islamic-minded but originally peaceful movements, or at least, neo-rational movements and turned them, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which inspired much of the violence sweeping the Islamic world now.

    To interpret this as a simple war between high-minded elite French enlightenment and some sort of medieval pseudo-fascism is utterly to miss the point and to wear willful blinkers to the West's part in having developed the situation.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Clearly they are responsible. However, when we look at at least one of the brothers in earlier material, he comes across as basically a sweet, well-meaning guy. Drastic things have happened in the past to set someone up like that to be so receptive to messages of hate and violence. I am of course not saying it's justified, but I am intrigued by the background to this. We are being sold a French propaganda message - this is all about liberty and equality - vs - medievalism - but it isn't that, at all. It's at least partly about the recent legacy of European colonialism in Africa and the Middle East and at least partly about the French role in it and the refusal of France to address these things.

    They were born in France, but of Muslim Algerian parentage. Algerian violence did not end when the country formally gained 'independence', indeed, it intensified and the country has been wracked with bloodletting ever since. In many aspects, it is strikingly similar to Egypt, another place where Western-backed governments have brutally suppressed Islamic-minded but originally peaceful movements, or at least, neo-rational movements and turned them, like the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which inspired much of the violence sweeping the Islamic world now.

    To interpret this as a simple war between high-minded elite French enlightenment and some sort of medieval pseudo-fascism is utterly to miss the point and to wear willful blinkers to the West's part in having developed the situation.
    Very well written.
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    (Original post by JamesNeedHelp2)
    Very well written.
    anything which enables morons to say "it is not my fault i kill people" is to be deplored.
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    (Original post by the bear)
    anything which enables morons to say "it is not my fault i kill people" is to be deplored.


    I dont believe, and i cant see where in fullofsuprises contribution, it states that her opinion, is of that nature. Unless ofcourse, you are willing to highlight it for us all to see. Until then however, please do refrain from telling me how i should feel.
 
 
 
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