The Commons Bar Mk XIII - MHoC Chat Thread

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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    I'm quite liking the Tory government at the moment...

    They're not really like UKIP. Taking Britain out of the single market wasn't predicted by myself. I assumed that the Tories would elect a leader favouring single market access to border controls, so this leaves a few years to sort out trade deals, probably not enough time though. Other than that they're doing everything right, still cutting the deficit, still lowering taxes, investing in homes for people too but doing all in such a made rate and sensible fashion.

    When Theresa wins in 2020 (if she's still leader) I look forward to seeing what she does then.
    I think that the Government is announcing some great policies at the moment, I don't think that there's been a better time to be a Conservative since Thatcher in the 1980s.

    BIB, I agree with you that it's almost a given the Conservatives will win in 2020, the question is how big the majority will be.
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    Last year nearly everyone I phoned as part of Corbyn's campaign said something along the lines of "we can't win 2020 so I'll vote for the candidate who I think can reform and change the Labour Party"

    This year we had a candidate who claimed to be electable without backing up why, and then making considerably more gaffs than Corbyn.

    I remember the election and hearing the early morning commentary and all the commentary over the following days, and it was just full of depressed Labour politicians saying we had failed and couldn't win in 2020 either.

    This idea it's Corbyn's fault flies in the face of what was said before he was even running. Do I think Corbyn can win? No. Do I think Burnham,Cooper, Kendall, or Smith could win? No. Was that the average reply both this year and last year during the leadership contests? Yes. If asked by a poll if Corbyn could win I do say yes, so do many I know who in private or in the internal contests say otherwise. Both Corbyn and Owen supporters not just Corbyn supporters.

    Just as a last note I've not met a single person who voted Owen Smith who thought he would be a good leader, or who thought he could win in 2020. Just that he would do less worse than Corbyn.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    That may be because you may be imagining free marketeers as the Labour stereotype.

    Believing in the supremacy of the market over government is not about believing in some ancap vision, it's about believing in low taxes, competitive markets and generally private ownership of the means of production. It's entirely possible that within that space you can give the market a kick up the ass in a certain direction or restructure a market to make it competitive.

    These days i think that tax and spend are probably more important to people like myself than keeping government out of doing anything.
    The speech was pure rhetoric and apart from saying she will activate article 50, there were virtually no solid policies.

    * Today's speech seemed a mixture between Ed Miliband's economic policy and Nigel Farage's social policy.

    Lots of proposals and ideas such as temporary freezes on electricity and gas bills were put forward by Ed Miliband who was subsequently labelled an anti business, Marxist because of it.

    In fact the Telegraph even showed how parts of May's speech today were pretty much word for word with Miliband's 2013 speech. Especially the bits about the state intervening and curbing the excesses of capitalism. Having workers on boards is more left wing than anything Miliband or even Corbyn has proposed!

    * If May backs up her rhetoric with policies then there is very little there for the free marketeers.
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    (Original post by toronto353)
    I think that the Government is announcing some great policies at the moment, I don't think that there's been a better time to be a Conservative since Thatcher in the 1980s.

    BIB, I agree with you that it's almost a given the Conservatives will win in 2020, the question is how big the majority will be.
    It seems like a lot on here are simply conservative fans rather than having any ideology themselves.

    May's speech today was incredibly similar economically to Ed Miliband's a few years ago. Yet if Ed had delivered it, the same people who are praising May would be calling him a far left extremist.
    Apart from getting rough on immigration, what would Ed Miliband have disagreed with in that speech?
    *
    May's speech today talked about the state intervening, talked about capping energy prices, about putting workers on Boards, about punishing employers who treat workers badly, about using tax payer money to fund new houses, about the dangers of capitalism, about how society is unfair and benefits the privileged few.

    How anyone can auppprt both Cameron and May's approaches, given how different they are is beyond me.*
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    Seems that some Trusts have stated that they'll be unable to fulfill their obligations as per the junior doctor contract that was imposed. Feeding through to the doctors though, not back to DoH. Shocking
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Seems that some Trusts have stated that they'll be unable to fulfill their obligations as per the junior doctor contract that was imposed. Feeding through to the doctors though, not back to DoH. Shocking
    You don't bite the hand that feeds you, well, unless you're a trade unionist.
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    Listening to May's speech and it's hilarious, the standard politician "I will answer directly" before taking an hour to do so, without really answering it, **** it, all this pointless applause is annoying too, need to find a transcript.
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    Okay about a quarter of the way in with the line Aph needs to listen to with his world "citizenship". Still not really said anything.

    And then I start turning off her:

    "Supporting free markets, but stepping in to repair them when they aren't working as they should" It's one or the other dear, can't have it both ways

    Yeah, a week ago I would say that May is growing on me, now I say she's no better than Cameron. When she should be striving to move the centre to her she is insisting on moving to the centre.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Okay about a quarter of the way in with the line Aph needs to listen to with his world "citizenship". Still not really said anything.

    And then I start turning off her:

    "Supporting free markets, but stepping in to repair them when they aren't working as they should" It's one or the other dear, can't have it both ways

    Yeah, a week ago I would say that May is growing on me, now I say she's no better than Cameron. When she should be striving to move the centre to her she is insisting on moving to the centre.
    Mrs May has abolished the department whose remit included climate change. not a good start as far as I am concerned. I welcome the reduction of spin and some of the sackings (Michael Gove and Gideon Osbourne especially), but whether or not her government will do much to reduce the great inequality in this country and the level of poverty, I doubt very much.
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    (Original post by barnetlad)
    Mrs May has abolished the department whose remit included climate change. not a good start as far as I am concerned. I welcome the reduction of spin and some of the sackings (Michael Gove and Gideon Osbourne especially), but whether or not her government will do much to reduce the great inequality in this country and the level of poverty, I doubt very much.
    Because departments never change, have never been merged, and have never beenb split... I suggest you take a look at this department
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Okay about a quarter of the way in with the line Aph needs to listen to with his world "citizenship". Still not really said anything.

    And then I start turning off her:

    "Supporting free markets, but stepping in to repair them when they aren't working as they should" It's one or the other dear, can't have it both ways

    Yeah, a week ago I would say that May is growing on me, now I say she's no better than Cameron. When she should be striving to move the centre to her she is insisting on moving to the centre.
    Today was the strangest tory leader's speech I've ever heard. Parts of it wouldn't look out of place at a Socialist worker's meeting, other parts would have made the Daily Mail editor jump for joy.

    The economic message very Miliband, the social message very Farage. There was very little I could see that would appeal to the small state, low tax, free marketeer conservative.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Today was the strangest tory leader's speech I've ever heard. Parts of it wouldn't look out of place at a Socialist worker's meeting, other parts would have made the Daily Mail editor jump for joy.

    The economic message very Miliband, the social message very Farage. There was very little I could see that would appeal to the small state, low tax, free marketeer conservative.
    If there were an election next year with a real threat from the left this would make sense, instead we just get Cameron 2.0 rather than the Thatcher 2.0 people were hoping for.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    If there were an election next year with a real threat from the left this would make sense, instead we just get Cameron 2.0 rather than the Thatcher 2.0 people were hoping for.
    She seems rather the opposite of Thatcher (in Tory terms). In her speech today she made comments about how important community and the government is and in a rebuke to Thatcherism spoke of how there is more to life than 'individualism'.
    Unlike Thatcher and Reagan, it seems May sees the state as a force for good.

    However it is worth pointing out that at the moment this is all just rhetoric and there were very few actual policies to back it up.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    She seems rather the opposite of Thatcher (in Tory terms). In her speech today she made comments about how important community and the government is and in a rebuke to Thatcherism spoke of how there is more to life than 'individualism'.
    Unlike Thatcher and Reagan, it seems May sees the state as a force for good.

    However it is worth pointing out that at the moment this is all just rhetoric and there were very few actual policies to back it up.
    There's a reason I read the speach rather that watched it:
    1) It meant I didn't spend half an hour listening to blind applause
    2) It meant I could skim past the 90%+ waffle that happens whenever a politician opens their mouth, swiftly increasing to 99% if they use the phrase "I will answer that question directly" or words to that effect.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    There's a reason I read the speach rather that watched it:
    1) It meant I didn't spend half an hour listening to blind applause
    2) It meant I could skim past the 90%+ waffle that happens whenever a politician opens their mouth, swiftly increasing to 99% if they use the phrase "I will answer that question directly" or words to that effect.

    Party conferences really are a mahoosive waste of everyone's time. They seem to be more about avoiding a gaffe (Ed Miliband not mentioning the budget) rather than helping in anyway.

    We had five days of a tory conference and the only thing we found out is that Article 50 will probably be triggered in March. The rest was just waffle. The Autumn statement will tell us far, far more.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    Party conferences really are a mahoosive waste of everyone's time. They seem to be more about avoiding a gaffe (Ed Miliband not mentioning the budget) rather than helping in anyway.

    We had five days of a tory conference and the only thing we found out is that Article 50 will probably be triggered in March. The rest was just waffle. The Autumn statement will tell us far, far more.
    Nobody expects to learn much at party conferences, there is a reason why the journalists don't like covering it, the interesting stuff isn't covered.

    The way I see it there are only really 4 reasons for it:
    1) I expect the parties make a lot of money off of it
    2) The hardcore party liners get to fawn over the politicians in person
    3) For the attendees, lots and lots of free alcohol without actually having to pay that much in the first place
    4) The fringe events are pretty good

    Also, it's was a 4 day conference, not 5, and really it was 3.
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    On Newsnight, Theresa May's ally George Freeman pretty much confirming the Tories are now shifting to Keynsian economics. Weird.
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    (Original post by Bornblue)
    On Newsnight, Theresa May's ally George Freeman pretty much confirming the Tories are now shifting to Keynsian economics. Weird.
    The impression I've got from the conference is that we're moving to a "new centre" filled with populism. The speech sounds very much like it's for targeting a strong majority at a general election a la Blair. We've moved on from the globalisation-liking party that prioritises economic competence to a party that focuses on getting rid of Johnny Foreigner instead.

    It's interesting that the discarding of neoliberalism hasn't come from Labour, but from the Tories instead.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    You don't bite the hand that feeds you, well, unless you're a trade unionist.
    It doesn't make sense, Trusts are legally obliged to meet the requirements of the contract they create, either it creates a potential loophole to sue or Trusts will in fact modify the contract, (seemingly so far the former to qualify for Hunts subsidy)

    Posted from TSR Mobile
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    QE and low interest rates out the door, very pleased.

    The fiscal approach will much depend on how they pay for it to me but i support more capital spending.

    (Original post by The Financier)
    The impression I've got from the conference is that we're moving to a "new centre" filled with populism. The speech sounds very much like it's for targeting a strong majority at a general election a la Blair. We've moved on from the globalisation-liking party that prioritises economic competence to a party that focuses on getting rid of Johnny Foreigner instead.

    It's interesting that the discarding of neoliberalism hasn't come from Labour, but from the Tories instead.
    When you look at the times that Labour has been in government (bar Attlee), they have always tended to maintain the consensus rather than change it. In that sense, any change from neoliberalism was always going to have to come from the Tories if it is indeed dead.
 
 
 
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