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    (Original post by The Financier)
    That figure isn't even accurate as £350 million a week isn't the net cost. The figure it is derived from, the annual contribution of £18 billion last year does not take into account the UK rebate (which was worth around £5 billion). The EU also spends money in the UK to the tune of £4.5 billion, leaving a net contribution of £8.5 billion.(1)

    It's also useless as a figure by itself. If economic output is higher as a result of the level of access we have in the single market, then the "cost" is exceeded by the economic benefit of membership, resulting in a net gain. The Leave camp have so far failed to demonstrate that the economic benefit of membership is less than the cost of membership, or that a future deal with the EU would reduce the cost of access by more than the loss in economic output.

    (1) Gov Figures: https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...15.pdf#page=44
    I don't think people will vote to remain/leave based on how much the EU puts back into the EU through .... most people wouldn't know the exact figures on how much we spend on EU membership when there are many more reasons as to why people will vote to remain or leave such as National sovereignty or controlling are borders , the fact is that we spend around 55k a day to be a member of a bureaucratic union
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    Two things that I want to stop.

    It isn't the fault of immigration though that our infrastructure is being strained, it's under-investment. I was immigration to be cut to the ten's of thousands and I want most of it to come from the commonwealth, because there are strains on our infrastructure, but this isn't the fault of immigrants.
    I agree with that ... however i want to reduce / stop immigration from the middle east and eastern Europe and promote immigration from the US , Canada , Australia , New Zealand

    Even if you did increase funding etc you still have to deal with the massive demand for use of the public services ....... if the population keeps increasing ( from immigration ) you still have a massive demand to deal with
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Yess, it's just wrong. You should still read that regulation before talking more about EU immigration.

    Freedom of movement constitutes a fundamental right ofworkers and their families. Mobility of labour within theUnion must be one of the means by which workers areguaranteed the possibility of improving their living andworking conditions and promoting their socialadvancement, while helping to satisfy the requirementsof the economies of the Member States. The right of allworkers in the Member States to pursue the activity oftheir choice within the Union should be affirmed.
    This means that when/if migrants get citizenship and a passport and have jobs they have the fundamental right to move anywhere in the EU
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    This means that when/if migrants get citizenship and a passport and have jobs they have the fundamental right to move anywhere in the EU
    Yeah this is why I told you to read the full thing rather than come to conclusions based on the preamble (because that's just completely wrong).
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    I don't think people will vote to remain/leave based on how much the EU puts back into the EU through .... most people wouldn't know the exact figures on how much we spend on EU membership when there are many more reasons as to why people will vote to remain or leave such as National sovereignty or controlling are borders , the fact is that we spend around 55k a day to be a member of a bureaucratic union
    That is not the point. The use of the £350 million figure is as much a scaremongering tactic as Project Fear, and is highly inaccurate and inappropriate for the context it's being painted in (again, not saying the Stay camp is any better. I've already criticised the use of per household numbers in the Treasury report to generate a large headline figure). Looking at the cost of something only with no regards as to why it is a cost (i.e. that it results in production that exceeds it's value) is not economically literate.
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Yeah this is why I told you to read the full thing rather than come to conclusions based on the preamble (because that's just completely wrong).
    So where does it say that migrants can't access FOM ? becuase all i seem to be reading is that all eu citizens can access FOM without discrimination
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    (Original post by TheDefiniteArticle)
    Migrants are entitled to benefits if and insofar as they arrived after having shown the capability of sustaining themselves and their families, and then are unfortunate enough to no longer be so capable. What is not permissible under EU law is for some unemployed Romanian bloke to think 'eyup dem benefits the UK's got are good init' and come and live off benefits here, and anyone suggesting otherwise is either misinformed or lying.
    Your Romanian is exceptional.
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    (Original post by The Financier)
    That is not the point. The use of the £350 million figure is as much a scaremongering tactic as Project Fear, and is highly inaccurate and inappropriate for the context it's being painted in (again, not saying the Stay camp is any better. I've already criticised the use of per household numbers in the Treasury report to generate a large headline figure). Looking at the cost of something only with no regards as to why it is a cost (i.e. that it results in production that exceeds it's value) is not economically literate.
    Wait and the IN Camp are'nt scaremongering .... I'm sure that the IN Camp have done more scaremongering than the OUT camp ? where is the evidence that our GDP will be 6pc smaller ? It seems all guesswork to me
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    Jeremy Hunt's response to the argument over whether he can legally impose the junior doctor contract, is to say that he will impose it anyway.

    Genius.
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    I agree with that ... however i want to reduce / stop immigration from the middle east and eastern Europe and promote immigration from the US , Canada , Australia , New Zealand

    Even if you did increase funding etc you still have to deal with the massive demand for use of the public services ....... if the population keeps increasing ( from immigration ) you still have a massive demand to deal with
    When I said the commonwealth, I meant the whole commonwealth, not just the white parts.

    We should be building 300,000-350,000 homes a year, the private sector alone is only managing 150,000+, and many public services are still underfunded. If you're going to complain about the pressure on public services then join a left wing party and campaign to get them extra funding. Even if we pull up the drawbridge, the public services will still be strained, hence why it has nothing to do with immigration.
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    (Original post by Jammy Duel)
    Say "anybody who acts like the petulant 5 year old they teach shall hereby be disallowed from voting"

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    That would rule out many politicians as they have a role in rducatong their children.
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    (Original post by That Bearded Man)
    Your Romanian is exceptional.
    Sounds exactly like the Romanian lad that came round to fix the combine last week!

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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    Wait and the IN Camp are'nt scaremongering .... I'm sure that the IN Camp have done more scaremongering than the OUT camp ? where is the evidence that our GDP will be 6pc smaller ? It seems all guesswork to me
    TF already noted that there has been scaremongering on both sides.

    I'm leaning towards out, but not for reasons of red-tape (the idea that the EU health and safety regulation harms business, is definitely correct, but a concession which provides the workforce and the public with adequate levels of.. well... health and safety) or immigration (immigration is fine, it grows our economy and enhances our culture (think Ska, Blues, Rock and Roll, Metal, etc. and that's just music).

    The point is that if you are on the leave campaign due to your xenophobia, then don't dress it up as anything else, you may get some ****, but it's better than being called out for all the other BS
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    Wait and the IN Camp are'nt scaremongering .... I'm sure that the IN Camp have done more scaremongering than the OUT camp ? where is the evidence that our GDP will be 6pc smaller ? It seems all guesswork to me
    Read my post again.

    That is not the point. The use of the £350 million figure is as much a scaremongering tactic as Project Fear, and is highly inaccurate and inappropriate for the context it's being painted in (again, not saying the Stay camp is any better. I've already criticised the use of per household numbers in the Treasury report to generate a large headline figure). Looking at the cost of something only with no regards as to why it is a cost (i.e. that it results in production that exceeds it's value) is not economically literate.
    The analysis is in the report and they've been very open about how they arrived at their figures (not that I believe the 6pc figure will be reality as it's a forecast where its impossible to encompass all factors but it is useful as its based on empirical evidence. It's the directional implication of Brexit on the UK economy that should be the main takeaway from the report). The main providers of guesswork is the leave camp's argument at the moment. There hasn't been any comprehensive economic analysis on the scale of the Treasury, LSE etc. that supports the argument that the UK has a net-benefit economically from leaving.

    I will also add that I am well aware that there are other factors other than Economics in the vote. I'm only looking at the economics of things and am not suggesting that voting leave/remain should only be for economic reasons. Nevertheless, I cannot see how the Leave camp can claim they have the stronger economic argument.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    TF already noted that there has been scaremongering on both sides.

    I'm leaning towards out, but not for reasons of red-tape (the idea that the EU health and safety regulation harms business, is definitely correct, but a concession which provides the workforce and the public with adequate levels of.. well... health and safety) or immigration (immigration is fine, it grows our economy and enhances our culture (think Ska, Blues, Rock and Roll, Metal, etc. and that's just music).

    The point is that if you are on the leave campaign due to your xenophobia, then don't dress it up as anything else, you may get some ****, but it's better than being called out for all the other BS
    I'm definitely on the leave campaign because of multiple issues not just Immigration but on other issues such as Red tape , sovereignty etc .... i accept i'm not the best at debating issues that effect the EU ...... however i have the right to express my views regardless of where ever you agree with them or not
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    So where does it say that migrants can't access FOM ? becuase all i seem to be reading is that all eu citizens can access FOM without discrimination
    Freedom of movement is not the same thing as migration.
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    I'm definitely on the leave campaign because of multiple issues not just Immigration but on other issues such as Red tape , sovereignty etc .... i accept i'm not the best at debating issues that effect the EU ...... however i have the right to express my views regardless of where ever you agree with them or not
    But when asked for an example of the red tape that you disagree with, you pointed to the health and safety regulation on lifts.

    Do you really expect anyone to believe that you want to leave the EU because you think elevators are too safe?
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    I'm definitely on the leave campaign because of multiple issues not just Immigration but on other issues such as Red tape , sovereignty etc .... i accept i'm not the best at debating issues that effect the EU ...... however i have the right to express my views regardless of where ever you agree with them or not
    Of course you have the right to express your views. However, we also have the right to call you out on your views being deluded.
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    (Original post by Lime-man)
    But when asked for an example of the red tape that you disagree with, you pointed to the health and safety regulation on lifts.

    Do you really expect anyone to believe that you want to leave the EU because you think elevators are too safe?
    I've explained that people wanted to know specifics regulations that i disagree with ( which was the whole EU health and safety directive ) however i provided a sample of specific eu regulations on health and safety and explained why i disagreed with them
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    (Original post by hazzer1998)
    I've explained that people wanted to know specifics regulations that i disagree with ( which was the whole EU health and safety directive ) however i provided a sample of specific eu regulations on health and safety and explained why i disagreed with them
    Okay then, so why do you think that lifts are too safe?
 
 
 
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