Thousands, "up to a million" march to US Capitol against 'Obama the socialist' Watch

Lord_Farquad
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The level of stupidity displayed by TSR members never ceases to amaze me.
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srwences
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These people are truly, truly crazy.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Aphotic Cosmos)
The majority of people have never had cause to actually use their health plan. Even Glenn Beck, who is now completely against Obamacare, was horrified at the treatment he received when he actually NEEDED healthcare last year.

This is not the end of private insurance in the US, it's simply augmenting it with a public option. Many other Western countries have a similar system.

Frankly, I'd rather have the NHS or a state insurer watching my back than a private insurer.
It is the end of private insurance because no private insurer would be able to compete with the government. Insurance companies are at a huge disadvantage and won't be able to compete because they have to run their businesses legally or they go under. They can't print money, can't force non-policyholders to subsidize the people covered under their plan, can't raise taxes, and can't run up trillion dollar deficits the way government can. The studies show that employers would drop coverage and push everyone into the public program.
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Collingwood
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(Original post by fire2burn)
I use whatever flag I feel like at the time of changing my profile, I had it set as Brazil for many months.

None of my post was pro-state contrary to what your post is stating, I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of 'pro-capitalists' relying on the state. In education private alternatives exists, if they think health care for all is socialist then surely the same applies for education. Evidently they don't care about this, the only reason they're anti-universal health care is because they're bleating the same repetitive nonsense that fox news broadcasts. The same news channel that aired the now infamous statements about the NHS having death panels and wanting to kill Stephen Hawking.

These people are nothing but ill informed numpties,
The people who organise and attend these marches broadly are against state education &c. on principle. Unless you're rather wealthy it's quite difficult to actually avoid using these state services because not only do you have to pay twice, but the "free" alternative have destroyed the middle and low budget markets. In some cases (eg. roads) it is simply impossible to use private alternatives because the state claims de-facto ownership of all the land they could be built on through zoning/planning laws. (The NHS does have a "death panel", btw: it will stop treating you when you cost more than £30,000 per quality adjusted life year. And in fact this system has led to a number of scandals in Britain as well, eg. the poor provision of cancer and alzheimer's drugs).

butthurt about losing the election in a massive landslide.

That's not a landslide. This is a landslide:



(Original post by punktopia)
Based on what? The fact that I favour socialism over capitalism? I still favour anarchism over either.
On the basis that you favour policies that expand state power over those that reduce it. In my experience this is the key difference between left anarchists and anarcho capitalists: ancaps actually want to destroy the state, whereas left-anarchists want to build it up into a totalitarian monstrosity, educate everyone as to their Best and Correct way of living, and then remove the state only when its coercive powers are no longer necessary to ensure obedience. This idea is as impractical as it is inconsistent.

(Original post by burninginme)
YEAHH MAN DAN WIF THATCHA!

Anarchist - grow up.
A good number of anarchists have been grownups, and a good number of dictators have been children.
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Jarexi)
Im sorry but i would chose ours in a heartbeat. And you do realise 15% is a massive amount considering the USAs size?
EVERYONE should have healthcare avaliable to them, im sure if you found yourself in poverty or such you would feel the same way
Please be aware that poor people ARE ALREADY COVERED by Medicaid and Medicare. :facepalm:
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WhatTheFunk
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
Please be aware that poor people ARE ALREADY COVERED by Medicaid and Medicare. :facepalm:
only some poor people are covered by Medicaid not all

It is estimated that approximately 60 percent of poor Americans are not covered by Medicaid
http://www2.citizen.org/hrg/medicaid...lingScores.pdf

http://www.cms.hhs.gov/MedicaidGenInfo/
Having a limited income is one of the primary requirements for Medicaid eligibility, but poverty alone does not qualify a person to receive Medicaid benefits unless they also fall into one of the defined eligibility categories. According to the CMS website, "Medicaid does not provide medical assistance for all poor persons. Even under the broadest provisions of the Federal statute (except for emergency services for certain persons), the Medicaid program does not provide health care services, even for very poor persons, unless they are in one of the designated eligibility groups."
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Complex Simplicity
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(Original post by Collingwood)
The people who organise and attend these marches broadly are against state education &c. on principle. Unless you're rather wealthy it's quite difficult to actually avoid using these state services because not only do you have to pay twice, but the "free" alternative have destroyed the middle and low budget markets. In some cases (eg. roads) it is simply impossible to use private alternatives because the state claims de-facto ownership of all the land they could be built on through zoning/planning laws. (The NHS does have a "death panel", btw: it will stop treating you when you cost more than £30,000 per quality adjusted life year. And in fact this system has led to a number of scandals in Britain as well, eg. the poor provision of cancer and alzheimer's drugs).



That's not a landslide. This is a landslide:




On the basis that you favour policies that expand state power over those that reduce it. In my experience this is the key difference between left anarchists and anarcho capitalists: ancaps actually want to destroy the state, whereas left-anarchists want to build it up into a totalitarian monstrosity, educate everyone as to their Best and Correct way of living, and then remove the state only when its coercive powers are no longer necessary to ensure obedience. This idea is as impractical as it is inconsistent.


A good number of anarchists have been grownups, and a good number of dictators have been children.
please don't! It's quite obvious that a difficult decision has to be made for any sick patient whose treatment impacts on the potential treatment of several other patients. By enlarge, the treatment is given to the patient regardless of the cost; however, the nhs isn't an organisation with unlimited resources. To now call this a 'death panel' is quite disgraceful on your part and I hope you are responsible enough to realise why such a statement is quite absurd. I hope you never head a health organisation as you seem to be the type who would put your profits over the lives of others and do so by any means.
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Collingwood
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(Original post by Complex Simplicity)
please don't! It's quite obvious that a difficult decision has to be made for any sick patient whose treatment impacts on the potential treatment of several other patients. By enlarge, the treatment is given to the patient regardless of the cost; however, the nhs isn't an organisation with unlimited resources. To now call this a 'death panel' is quite disgraceful on your part and I hope you are responsible enough to realise why such a statement is quite absurd. I hope you never head a health organisation as you seem to be the type who would put your profits over the lives of others and do so by any means.
No, the treatment is not given regardless of cost. It is given according to a £30,000/QALY guideline. After that it is cut off, and people in Britain have died and continue to die because of this who do not die where these boundaries are higher (eg. the US). Calling it a "death panel" is fairly exciteable language but not ultimately inaccurate. I certainly do not have a "responsibility" to portray facts in the best possible light for your favoured political beliefs, nor does anything I have said imply I would "put profits over the lives of others".
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Made in the USA
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(Original post by Complex Simplicity)
So offering an alternative option, i.e. increasing compeititon, is communist now? People really need to get a grip.

And the problem I have with fox news isn't that they uphold a belief set that differs from my own. It's the fact they feel the need to lie to back up this belief. It's amazing how many people (including a poster in this thread) still belief obamacare will pay for abortions and reduce medicare. Shocking really.
Obamacare will pay for abortions and reduce medicare. How come you folks believe something is automatically true just because Obama said it is? I had another person reply to my thread that said something like "It's not true because Obama said it wasn't true in his speech." Obama might be the biggest liar we've had for president, maybe even more than Clinton. He doesn't just lie about small things. He lies about really big things. Just because he says something in a speech doesn't mean it's true.

The Capps Amendment to HR 3200 has a Section 4B: "Abortions for Which Public Funding Is Allowed. -- The services described in this subparagraph are abortions for which the expenditure of Federal funds appropriated for the Department of Health and Human Services is permitted."

Even the Washington Times said "You can't get more explicit than that" and FactCheck.org said "Despite what Obama said, the House bill would allow abortions to be covered by a federal plan and by federally subsidized private plans."

He lied in the speech, pure and simple. He lied when he said " "Don't pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut...That will never happen on my watch. I will protect Medicare."

The Washington Post reported on August 9th, 2009 that Obama proposes "to squeeze more than $500 billion out of the growth of Medicare over the next decade....[which has] fueled fears that his effort to expand coverage to millions of younger, uninsured Americans will damage elder care. As a result, barely one-third of seniors support a health-care overhaul, several polls found." Washington Post is a left wing paper and even they admit he is lying.

Obama isn't the angle the British press has made him out to be. Stop taking everything at face value! Things got so ridiculous during that speech that a congressman was driven to jump up and call the president a liar because he was lying to the American people. Poll after poll shows that americans just don't trust him, and the five major lies in the speech are going to come back to haunt him.
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Complex Simplicity
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(Original post by Collingwood)
No, the treatment is not given regardless of cost. It is given according to a £30,000/QALY guideline. After that it is cut off, and people in Britain have died and continue to die because of this who do not die where these boundaries are higher (eg. the US). Calling it a "death panel" is fairly exciteable language but not ultimately inaccurate. I certainly do not have a "responsibility" to portray facts in the best possible light for your favoured political beliefs, nor does anything I have said imply I would "put profits over the lives of others".
Why can't you use facts as simply that facts,do they not speak for themselves? The fact that you have decided to take a guideline and turn it into a 'death panel' speaks for itself. I am highlighting that regardless of your political views it is rather unnecessary to demonise the nhs. The simple fact is the nhs has finite resources and as a result has to consider each individual case carefully if it affects the lives of many others hence: Guideline.
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Aphotic Cosmos
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(Original post by Collingwood)
No, the treatment is not given regardless of cost. It is given according to a £30,000/QALY guideline. After that it is cut off, and people in Britain have died and continue to die because of this who do not die where these boundaries are higher (eg. the US). Calling it a "death panel" is fairly exciteable language but not ultimately inaccurate. I certainly do not have a "responsibility" to portray facts in the best possible light for your favoured political beliefs, nor does anything I have said imply I would "put profits over the lives of others".
And do you think insurers will pay out more than $45,000 [£30,000] per person for drugs? They are companies, and healthcare is an expensive business. You'd be lucky to get £30K worth of medical treatment INCLUDING drugs in the US under most insurers, should you need it, without having to foot a substantial bill at some point. God help you if you have a serious heart attack or a stroke and need an expensive operation. These companies are not interested in your health - they're interested in your wallet. This interview, if you die-hard cons have the heart to watch it, is pretty damning as to the state of the private health industry in the US.

That £30K figure isn't overall medical care - which is theoretically limitless and often runs into the millions for seriously ill patients without them having to pay a penny more - it's simply for drugs treatments. People can and DO petition NICE - the board that authorises drugs treatments based on clinical results and cost - for drugs to be made available on the NHS that weren't previously, whilst the vast majority of drugs here in the UK are readily available on the NHS.
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Complex Simplicity
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(Original post by Made in the USA)
Obamacare will pay for abortions and reduce medicare. How come you folks believe something is automatically true just because Obama said it is? I had another person reply to my thread that said something like "It's not true because Obama said it wasn't true in his speech." Obama might be the biggest liar we've had for president, maybe even more than Clinton. He doesn't just lie about small things. He lies about really big things. Just because he says something in a speech doesn't mean it's true.

The Capps Amendment to HR 3200 has a Section 4B: "Abortions for Which Public Funding Is Allowed. -- The services described in this subparagraph are abortions for which the expenditure of Federal funds appropriated for the Department of Health and Human Services is permitted."

Even the Washington Times said "You can't get more explicit than that" and FactCheck.org said "Despite what Obama said, the House bill would allow abortions to be covered by a federal plan and by federally subsidized private plans."

He lied in the speech, pure and simple. He lied when he said " "Don't pay attention to those scary stories about how your benefits will be cut...That will never happen on my watch. I will protect Medicare."

The Washington Post reported on August 9th, 2009 that Obama proposes "to squeeze more than $500 billion out of the growth of Medicare over the next decade....[which has] fueled fears that his effort to expand coverage to millions of younger, uninsured Americans will damage elder care. As a result, barely one-third of seniors support a health-care overhaul, several polls found." Washington Post is a left wing paper and even they admit he is lying.

Obama isn't the angle the British press has made him out to be. Stop taking everything at face value! Things got so ridiculous during that speech that a congressman was driven to jump up and call the president a liar because he was lying to the American people. Poll after poll shows that americans just don't trust him, and the five major lies in the speech are going to come back to haunt him.
interesting. Out of curiousity, do you believe the current state of american healthcare is acceptable? If not, what would you do to change it?

As for your answer, I find it ridiculous that you are accusing the british press of taking things at face value when so many americans don't even bother to do that, feeding off every bit of sensationalist rubbish their local tv programme feeds them and periodically react to it. You know that the legislation hasn't been passed, you also know that the key aspect of obamacare was the introduction of a non-profit public option to compete with the private system thus increasing the choice to the american people. You also know that several republicans, despite seeing the obvious benefits to such a system, have decided to restart their scare tactics propaganda none of which is wholely based on fact. Now I ask you, who is more believable and who is lying?
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burningnun
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(Original post by CandyFlipper)
I'm a libertarian, and I support Obamacare - its ridicilous that people are calling it socialist, they clearly just don't understand it.

How clear does Obama need to make it - the public option wont apply to anybody who already has insurance, and it will compete fairly with private insurance companies by not using taxpayers money!

Besides that one point as well, there are several others that everybody agrees must be done, e.g. restrictions on insurance companies to ensure they don't put an annual cap on care or refuse care based on previous conditions. The longer the republicans delay this healthcare plan based on the minor aspect of public care being an option, they longer it is until those other issues are resolved.

If these people were true champions of the free-market, they would have faith that the private options will still be better than the public alternative and people will choose the highly efficient and amazing private option. If they feel that public care will take over, when its competing fairly without taxpayers money, they're actually being the socialists themselves.
Can you explain to me how this is funded by not-the-taxpayers'-money?

(Original post by MazalTov89)
The thousands of people who attended that protest are there simply because the President is black. They're just using the accusations of socialism and communism as a facade to hide their bigotry.
Hahahahahahahaha.
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CandyFlipper
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(Original post by burningnun)
Can you explain to me how this is funded by not-the-taxpayers'-money?
Insurance premiums, its in his speech that he gave.
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faber niger
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(Original post by Ayla Phoenix)
They fail to realise the essence of their healthcare and education systems are inherently socialist. Republican fail.


I'm with you on the general point though.
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burningnun
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(Original post by CandyFlipper)
Insurance premiums, its in his speech that he gave.
So it's the gov't's money that comes from the same people who pay tax, but it's not taxpayers' money :confused:
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CandyFlipper
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(Original post by burningnun)
So it's the gov't's money that comes from the same people who pay tax, but it's not taxpayers' money :confused:
Its exactly like a private insurance company, but its run by the government. Private companies don't use taxpayers money ...
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username280380
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The problem is that they do not understand that it isn't Socialism, it isn't hugely far right either. It is paving the way for a first world healthcare system.
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(Original post by CandyFlipper)
Its exactly like a private insurance company, but its run by the government. Private companies don't use taxpayers money ...
Oh, OK. I see. So what is it about the government that puts it in a position to be able to offer cheaper healthcare than private companies?
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Azzer
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What did people honestly expect?? For the past 8 years America has been under Republican control. Now it is under the Democrats. The Democrats and Republicans have very different policies don't they. It's just going to take some time to get used to for them. 8 years is a very long time to get used to something. Give it time.
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