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Are there any universities where you can do medicine without AAA grades? watch

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    (Original post by Sex Panther)
    In that case, tell me something. Why do the highest ranked medical schools all typically ask for AAA? Every one of the top 10 typically asks for AAA.

    ( http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/...guide-medicine cross referenced to: http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/wiki...l_Requirements)
    Ah - you think medical school rankings mean anything :rofl:

    Saying such a thing marks you out as sort of - misinformed.
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    (Original post by Sex Panther)
    So they are a predictor? And should be used in tandem with other indices? This is exactly what I've been arguing from the start.
    Well no, you said: "If you can't get AAA at A level, I'm not sure I want you fiddling around with my insides..."
    This suggests that you think doctors who got AAB or lower are not competant doctors for them to treat you. Therefore you think that getting AAA is a perfect predictor as to how 'good' of a doctor one becomes. I'm sure you will deny this but if we assume that you thought that A levels were only a predictor which should be used with other factors to determine the liklihood of a person becoming a good doctor, then this completely contradicts your first post and it simply does not fit. A levels are most certainly a predictor and they should rightly so be used in the application process, but it is invalid to think that things such as the personal statement/interview/BMAT/UKCAT/work experience/volunteering/ECs don't matter at all. If you geniunely think that A levels are only a predictor which should be taken into consideration along with other factors then I agree with you, but you must admit that you worded your initial post quite poorly/provocatively which is why you have attracted so much attention.


    Some schools do use the BMAT so an absence of it is clearly not down to time, but anyway. According to your logic, someone with poor A levels might be bad at exams; someone who struggles on the BMAT/UKCAT might also be bad at exams; someone who struggles at interview might find one-to-one/two/three, under pressure, difficult; someone with poor references from tutors might have had personal issues, or not do well with classroom based learning. You can make apologies for any of these indices, but the fact remains that you're making apologies - and why should you have to for people who are claiming to be the best and the brightest?
    I am fully aware that 4 unis use the BMAT however I was stating that given more time, the unis could devise other tests like the BMAT to assess a candidate's ability. Well sometimes people will have geniune reasons for under-performing and I think it silly to simply ignore these, however I'm sure there is hardly anyone out there who under-performs in every section of the application process due to their circumstances, there will be a great deal of people who under-perform in A levels though and it's ludicrous to simply wave them away as incompetent.

    On your second point, the legal age for drinking is 18, not 17 and 364 days. Does that mean the 17 year old is less capable of knowing his limits? Of course not, but you have to draw the line somewhere - and again, A levels provide a starting point. So yes, the student with 79 isn't fit.

    There are going to be times in all our lives when we miss out on something by a tiny margin. It sucks, but it has to happen, right?
    That's all well and good but drawing such a line is unnecessary anyway. If a candidate gets into a medical school, it does not guaruntee them a medical degree by the end of it. There are tests every year to make sure that the medics are capable enough of becoming doctors and a handfull do fail each year, they won't be going on to fiddle with your insides. Therefore, you can be pretty sure that any doctor you meet has passed all of the tests necessary which is obviously a much better indicator of ability than the A levels grades they achieved 5/6 years+ prior.

    There is a wider point about how I want to feel when I'm talking to my Doctor. I don't want to feel like I'm better than him/her at anything - including semantics. I'm getting that from several of the med students in here - graemematt, Markh, and Sarky, the latter of whom has posted once and scared the **** out of me - but not from others.
    well, hate to tell you this but no one is perfect, not even doctors (they do come pretty damn close though :cool: ). Your doctor will make far greater mistakes than simple spelling errors throughout their career and sometimes this will lead to the death of their patient. Does that make the incapable of treating you? No. You do not trust your doctor because they are better that you in every way possible.

    I don't think it's helpful to start second-guessing motivation. My original point was, I want Doctors to have excelled at every step; whether this is due to stubbornness or determination doesn't make any difference really.
    I think it is entirely helpful to question one's motivation. In medicine one needs to constantly increase the knowledge they have and keep up-to-date with the latest research. The stubborn person has no goal to aspire to, no motivation to fuel them to learn everyday and make themselves into a more competant doctor.You should agree with me that I would want my doctor to know what the best medication for me is based on the latest findings.



    Maybe. But maybe, just maybe, you're all wrong :p: This long ago ceased being about the original point for me, and more about giving my brain some exercise (and calling out some ****** attitudes). My last exam was May 11th....
    maybe, but I doubt it :p:




    But you also need to be able to remember large amounts of information and process knowledge in a swift and decisive manner, right? Which is reflected in A levels, at least in some way. So, AAA at A level, plus everything else!
    As I stated earlier, this is not what you were implying with your first post, your views seem to have changed quite a bit since the start of this thread. It's like you actually agree with everyone who is arguing against you but you are continuing this argument for the sake of it.




    I know the feeling. You have to give me points for perseverance, if nothing else, right?
    Yeah, you get points for perserverance
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    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    sorri to take the wind out of.... well you know the phrase well by now...its not easy, its jusgt NOT a struggle to get.
    So you're saying that medical students should be the ones who are struggling at A level.

    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    i see that you are quoting a study by David James to me. me being someone who has personally discussed the article with the good professor. not a good choice of article for you to pick there, eh?
    I really couldn't care less if you've discussed it with him. It seems fairly evident that you've failed to understand what he's saying in it, or he told you something that isn't included in the text.

    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    that probably explains why you've failed to notice that this article is about undergrad training and postgrad exams. NOT medical competence, as it clearly point sout in the paragraph following your quote.
    No it doesn't. Those are the first two summary points (there's only 4 total) and both of the others are urging more research. I'll repeat it for you here:

    'Long term prospective cohort studies or case-control studies are needed to examine predictors of success after qualification, and reliable, valid, and fair models of medical job competence need to be developed

    Relatively little research has been done into the importance of learning styles, interviews, ethnicity, sex, personal statements, and references, but a strategic learning style, white ethnicity, and female sex are associated with success in medical training'

    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    As it happens, Professor James (whom you are quoting) is the university advocate for widenig participation and the use of reduced offers less than AAA. i dont think he would take kindly to you misquoting him and using his material to support the opposite of his intention, matey.

    His words, not mine. I've quoted them complete, and in context. If he advocates offers less than AAA, it's for reasons not mentioned in his study.

    But I'll tell you what. Send me his email address, and I'll ask him myself.

    You also stated that the debate was resolved at the turn of the millenium, but Professor James is asking for more research in 2002. How does that correlate?

    And finally, ok, I'll concede that Professor James's study supports you (even though I've quoted several times showing that it doesn't). What about Professor McManus's study, and the other four he uses to back up the claim that, 'A levels predict performance'?

    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    thats becos there was no valid point there for this discussion, but if you wish to start a new thread to discuss our personalities then please feel free.
    (You did it again btw - you ignored my point about you calling admissions staff lazy).

    There were plenty of valid points - chief amongst them, why you thought it was appropriate or correct to repeatedly address me as an idiot and ignorant when in fact all I wanted you to do was provide me with some evidence as to why I was wrong.

    I've been ready to concede the entire argument since yesterday; indeed, when I noticed that I'd upset people that was I was ready to apologise and agree with them entirely (and I have a screenprint from yesterday to that effect). But your (and to a lesser extent Kinkerz's) attitude, and attitude alone, dissuaded me from that. You simply shouldn't be allowed to talk to people in that way in your position, and you shouldn't be allowed to talk to people in that manner without being challenged for it.

    I don't see why I should start a new thread, this one is perfectly good.
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    Hey gildartz. First of all, apologies for not replying to everything you've written; I know it's frustrating to spend time typing out a response and have it ignored. Consider this my agreement with you; I'm getting really tired of arguing a point which I don't - and indeed, have never - really believed in.

    (Original post by gildartz)
    As I stated earlier, this is not what you were implying with your first post, your views seem to have changed quite a bit since the start of this thread. It's like you actually agree with everyone who is arguing against you but you are continuing this argument for the sake of it.
    Top marks for intuition; we'll make a Jedi of you yet

    Although for the record, it's not really 'for the sake of it' - it's more about this:

    (Original post by Me, just now)

    ...when I noticed that I'd upset people that was I was ready to apologise and agree with them entirely (and I have a screenprint from yesterday to that effect). But your [Gizmo!'s] (and to a lesser extent Kinkerz's) attitude, and attitude alone, dissuaded me from that. You simply shouldn't be allowed to talk to people in that way in your position, and you shouldn't be allowed to talk to people in that manner without being challenged for it.
    I'm willing to bet that Gizmo! will just ignore what I've just said though so I don't suppose it matters.
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    (Original post by Sex Panther)
    So you're saying that medical students should be the ones who are struggling at A level.
    you are the only one professing that view.





    No it doesn't. Those are the first two summary points (there's only 4 total) and both of the others are urging more research. I'll repeat it for you here:

    'Long term prospective cohort studies or case-control studies are needed to examine predictors of success after qualification, and reliable, valid, and fair models of medical job competence need to be developed

    Relatively little research has been done into the importance of learning styles, interviews, ethnicity, sex, personal statements, and references, but a strategic learning style, white ethnicity, and female sex are associated with success in medical training'
    i dont mean to be rude, but if you choose to ignore the plain english in front of you, theres nothing more to be said here.


    but I'll tell you what. Send me his email address, and I'll ask him myself.
    its available on the nottingham university website, go ahead. (which sounds suspiciously like 'quit while your ahead' but hey i wouldnt expect you to notice that)

    You also stated that the debate was resolved at the turn of the millenium, but Professor James is asking for more research in 2002. How does that correlate?
    because that first one you mentioned was the debate for raising A level grades, whilst this other one of Professor James is about lowering them. look, you cant quote, lets say, Kinky's post on his nocturnal habit, and then use that quote to answer why admissions tutors are raising their admissions requirements, you know.
    try not to cross your streams, macca.


    And finally, ok, I'll concede that Professor James's study supports you (even though I've quoted several times showing that it doesn't). What about Professor McManus's study, and the other four he uses to back up the claim that, 'A levels predict performance'?
    you concede in every post you make! Mcmanus predicts performance in medical exams, and not once do they offer outcopme on performance as a doctor.

    (You did it again btw - you ignored my point about you calling admissions staff lazy).
    start another thread and i'll answer as to why you invented my 'lazy staff' comment. not here though.

    I don't see why I should start a new thread, this one is perfectly good.
    becos you always start a new thread for a new topic. i'm afriad thats been the rule before you started using these forums.
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    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    .
    Why did you ignore the following, Gizmo!?

    (Original post by Me)
    There were plenty of valid points - chief amongst them, why you thought it was appropriate or correct to repeatedly address me as an idiot and ignorant when in fact all I wanted you to do was provide me with some evidence as to why I was wrong.

    I've been ready to concede the entire argument since yesterday; indeed, when I noticed that I'd upset people that was I was ready to apologise and agree with them entirely (and I have a screenprint from yesterday to that effect). But your (and to a lesser extent Kinkerz's) attitude, and attitude alone, dissuaded me from that. You simply shouldn't be allowed to talk to people in that way in your position, and you shouldn't be allowed to talk to people in that manner without being challenged for it.
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    (Original post by Sex Panther)
    Why did you ignore the following, Gizmo!?
    becos personality questions have no bearing whatsoever on the discussion.

    please refrain from personal comments and return to the topic, or start a new fread about your new topic, macca.
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    (Original post by Gizmo!)
    .
    Funny how, when you're making personal comments they can stay in the thread, but when I'm making personal comments they need to be put elsewhere.

    But ok, have it your way.
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    Sex Panther:
    You wanted an apology from me for calling you a bigot: I'm sorry, perhaps I jumped to a conclusion.

    But I didn't get AAA+ at A-level (yet finished in the top quartile in January and second quartile in June) and I resent the fact that you've deduced I'll make an unsatisfactory doctor based on my A-level results and any comments I made in this thread (on an internet forum, where I'm bound to be more flippant). I think it's quite short-sighted of you.

    I think this discussion needs to come to an end, both for your interview and my blood pressure. Agree to disagree - I don't feel A-levels are all that important in selecting medical students provide they've exhibited a relatively high standard and/or show potential.
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    (Original post by Kinkerz)
    Sex Panther:
    You wanted an apology from me for calling you a bigot: I'm sorry, perhaps I jumped to a conclusion.

    But I didn't get AAA+ at A-level (yet finished in the top quartile in January and second quartile in June) and I resent the fact that you've deduced I'll make an unsatisfactory doctor based on my A-level results and any comments I made in this thread (on an internet forum, where I'm bound to be more flippant). I think it's quite short-sighted of you.

    I think this discussion needs to come to an end, both for your interview and my blood pressure. Agree to disagree - I don't feel A-levels are all that important in selecting medical students provide they've exhibited a relatively high standard and/or show potential.

    Bro there is a line of how stupid a post has to be before you start ignoring it.

    Those posts are well, well bellow that line.
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    :yawn:
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    I epically facepalmed at this thread.

    It might come as a shock to most of you to know that in the 1980s, the medical schools at that time required a minimum of BCC at A-level to be realistically considered for admission into medical school.

    These people who went through the system back then are now your doctors. Scared much?

    Realistically, medicine is less about understanding complex content but more about knowing a sheer volume of content. You don't need amazing intellect (though I suppose it helps!), you just need the ability to learn loads of content, often in a short space of time. This ability does not need AAA. The only reason why the requirements have risen so high is simply due to the sheer number of people applying and is a quick and easy way of dealing with the number of applications (though ultimately at the expense of people who don't get AAA but would make far better doctors than some of those that I know who did get in!).

    P.S., the thread was tl;dr, I apologise if this was already said earlier on!

    P.P.S. I did have a flick through and post 72 answers OPs original question...
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    (Original post by pianofingers)
    I epically facepalmed at this thread.
    +1 :yy:
 
 
 
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