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Welsh students who go to welsh universities wont have fees increased Watch

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    (Original post by Lewis :D)
    English people are only moaning out of jealousy and regret. In the general election England voted mainly for Conservatives, Wales voted mainly Labour. We have our own devolved assembly where the governing party is a Lab/Plaid coalition and they're only doing what's best for their people. It's your own fault for voting Conservative, ever since the Thatcher years Conservative votes in Wales have decreased and there is a lot of Tory hatred here so it's not fair at all if Wales and Scotland are bombarded with Tory policies when hardly any of us voted for them! Rant over.
    Why are you talking down to us. Most people on this forum are 16/17, therefore couldnt vote in the election. So don't tell us its our own fault.
    I am english and think its good for them that the welsh have the WAG which will subsidary fees. However, i think most english people on this forum are not jealous for wondering why wales are getting this, but instead questioning why they havnt got this.

    Basically, I will be sitting in a classroom next to a scottish friend paying nothing, a welsh friend paying around 3k and me paying 6-9k.

    When we graduate and if we all go into a jobs earning 20K, my scottish friend will have no debt, my welsh friend will have 9 grand fee debt and i will have 18-27K.
    I think thats why we're moaning.
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    (Original post by Lewis :D)
    English people are only moaning out of jealousy and regret. In the general election England voted mainly for Conservatives, Wales voted mainly Labour. We have our own devolved assembly where the governing party is a Lab/Plaid coalition and they're only doing what's best for their people. It's your own fault for voting Conservative, ever since the Thatcher years Conservative votes in Wales have decreased and there is a lot of Tory hatred here so it's not fair at all if Wales and Scotland are bombarded with Tory policies when hardly any of us voted for them! Rant over.
    Yes, because Labour definately wouldn't have raised fees if they'd won the election. :rolleyes:
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    (Original post by Silly Goose)
    Yes, because Labour definately wouldn't have raised fees if they'd won the election. :rolleyes:
    Well they haven't raised them in Wales, and we're led principally by Labour
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    So you'll have lower fees but crap teaching? :curious:
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    It really depends.

    Aberystwyth is 13th for Computer Science and highly regarded by employers.

    I would say that some English universities are far superior because they are

    Cambridge
    UCL
    Oxford

    Probably top 20-30 are better , then the Welsh Universities come into play and in certain subjects the Welsh universities are far better. I wouldn't write off a Welsh university purely on its location, you'd be pretty naive and stupid to do so. The same as I wouldn't write off an English University. The key is to find out the most detail about those particular universities and then apply.

    4/5ths of Aber's comp science graduates get a job within 6 months. Putting it high in the league tables. Only a few other English universities top that and seriously, how many people get into them universities for that particular course, not that many compared to their number of applicants.

    Once those top are taken then English students will look at Aberystwyth in order to get their next best degree so therefore Welsh universities will still get a high number of English students.

    Would you pay £8000 to go to Aber to do computer science (13th) or £8000 for an English University below it?

    Cardiff is very good for law. Glamorgan is one of the top for Computer Forensics and have various links with MI5 etc.

    Personally, I decided on what university was good in a particular subject as well as the overall league tables.

    Dont just assume English universities are better because they are not, a lot of them are shockingly poor.

    You should look at the subject league tables, employability percentage before you consider a course and university. Do not just look at the overall table because that university could have got its overall position based on Art, and be absolutely terrible in teaching the subject you want to do.
    In CS alone, apart from Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial, Nottingham, Warwick, Southampton, Manchester, Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow and TCD are probably better depts than Aberystwyth. For top firms, Wales is easily the least likely destination out of England, Scotland, Wales and NI. League tables mean nothing, Dundee's in the top 20 for CS but hardly any of its graduates make it in the top firms and the department is miles behind most top 30 universities.
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    (Original post by Curzon)
    What a stupid thing to say. For the record, I do want Welsh independence although I'm not sure if it is feasible at the present, but why should devolved administrations conform to what the UK government wants? The whole point of devolution is so that we DON'T have to conform to what the UK government wants on matters that are devolved.

    Maybe you guys should be protesting for English devolution.

    Because Wales is part of the UK, and voted in the UK general election? If you don't want to conform to UK laws then why are your MPs part of the UK parliament?
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    (Original post by Curzon)
    It's not "fundamentally unjust"! We have our own government, it has to look out for its own people! Devolution gives us the power to govern ourselves - why the hell should our Plaid/Labour government conform to Tory/Lib Dem policies?

    And as far as I see it, the reason Scottish students will pay less in Wales is because THEIR government has decided they should. Am I wrong in that? At least, it can't be as simple as the Assembly just deciding to discriminate against English students for the sake of it.
    Wrong. When did I even suggest the Welsh assembly and Scottish parliament are unjust? did you just skim read my posts and decide to respond in anyway you please? I am not attacking the devolved governments.

    It is fundamentally unjust that citizens in the same country will pay different prices based on where they live, at the same service. Imagine if Californian residents were allowed to go to Harvard for half the price and Florida students were told to pay full price. It wouldn't happen. How is the situation where French and German students are able to pay the same price as Welsh and Scottish students. Looking out for your own?

    If it was English students with free fees. We all know what those two governments would be screaming. Imagine... European citizens being able to study in England for free, while Scottish citizens (who are also European citizens) are told to pay top fees!. The Scottish government would be flaming mad! the call for Scottish independence will be deafening!

    Again I am not blaming the devolved governments. I am blaming the British government.
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    Regarding the EU students, I agree its a bit silly. But its the same in scotland, so perhaps its something to do with EU rules? I'm not sure really.
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    Oh god, there's so much misrepresentation, so many lies and distortations in this thread, so much I want to reply to. Unfortunately, I'm gonna have to confine my rampant quotations to the 5th page, for fear of my death rattle escaping me before I hit the post button.

    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Secondly, where is this money coming from? The Welsh teaching budget - that's going to cause problems for Welsh universities. Cardiff will survive due to being in the Russell Group, but other institutions such as Swansea, Swansea Met, Aberystwyth, Bangor etc will suffer, just so Welsh kids can pay less at English institutions. Madness!

    English students at an English university should pay either less, or the exact same as anyone else from the UK. It's appalling to think that English students will pay the most out of everyone.
    I of course agree that it is unfair for a Welsh student to pay less than their fellow, English, students. However, I think the ire displayed in this thread is horribly misplaced. You blast the WAG for trying to protect students here from the fee rise over the border, and have nothing to say of the administration that is implementing the fee rise in the first place? I agree: there should be a level playing field. I certainly don't agree that any student, anywhere in the UK should be paying up to £9,000 a year. So why not make a better use of your anger and focus it at Westminster.

    As to the cutting of the teaching budget in Wales: as I've already pointed out, under these proposals the teaching budget in Wales will be cut by 35%. Most of this will go straight back into tuition fee grants (i.e. it goes straight back to the university). How great the cut will be for Welsh universities in real terms I don't know, but it'll be a damn sight less than the 80% cut coming to English Universities. Teaching standards don't come into this debate.


    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    If you don't want your Plaid/Labour government to conform to Tory/Lib Dem policies, then it's simple. Get out of the UK. If you want to benefit from the money Westminster gives you, but you don't want to conform to UK politics as a whole, get out. It's simple, become completely devolved and look after yourselves. You can't claim that you shouldn't conform to UK policy as a whole AND benefit from the money you get from the UK as a whole.
    Ahahahaha, someone needs to learn what Devolution is. The purpose of the devolved administrations is not to act exactly in line with the policies of the UK Government of the day; what an exercise in futility that would be. You'd have had the Labour Government back in '99 stand over the collective shoulders of the new Welsh polity and say "I created you. You bow to my will!"? How would the federal republics of the world function if that was the way of things? Would you expect a Republican state government in Arizona to do nothing but follow in the footsteps of a Democratic federal government?


    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Why would English students pay 6k-9k at a Welsh university when they know fine well that Welsh universities are going to be on the slide because the Welsh government is using the teaching budget to subsidise fees for Welsh students at English universities?

    Makes no sense, you'd go where you can get the best value from. English students primarily stay in England anyways and those who do study in Wales won't be high enough in numbers to make up the cash.
    See above.


    (Original post by lonelykatana)
    Im not welsh, and will bloody well never say I am.
    But I will still get lower fee's.

    Personally I think this is a disgrace.
    Why the hell should Irish/English/Scottish tax payers fund welsh student.
    England is already short changed by the barnet formula then welsh oh so love to complain about. By over £1000 per head.

    Disgusting.
    Yep, England doesn't do too well out of the Barnett Formula. Neither does Wales, believe it or not. We get more per capita than most English regions (not all: London gets far more per capita than Wales does despite being the richest, best developed part of the UK). Were a real needs-based formula be introduced, instead of doling out money arbitrarily based on population, Wales would actually get more - £300,000,000 more, in fact, so its not just a case of England being robbed, as Wales has cause to complain too.

    As to English taxpayers "funding" Welsh students, they won't. UK taxpayers will fund the Welsh budget. The WAG is free to spend the budget as it sees fit. If it wants to pour a little bit more into education at the expense of health, then it can do so. Its also worth noting that no policy directly affects how much Wales will get: this policy comes at no extra expense to the English taxpayer. The only thing that's been in the news recently that might affect the wonderfully blunt instrument that is the Barnett Formula is the Pope giving the "almost OK!" to condoms.

    (Original post by lonelykatana)
    It damn well is unjust, when 75% of the Welsh assembly budget comes from English/scottish Irish tax payers.
    Over 50% from the English alone.
    So let us raise our own taxes.

    (Original post by lonelykatana)
    Wales has, and never will have the economy to become its own country. Yorkshire makes more money for gods sake.
    You got the figures to back that up?

    (Original post by lonelykatana)
    Dont have to conform, no.
    But your happy to take 75% of your budget from then....
    Make your mind up Wales, devolution, or English/scottish/Irish money?!
    *massive facepalm*
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    (Original post by ish90an)
    In CS alone, apart from Oxbridge, UCL, Imperial, Nottingham, Warwick, Southampton, Manchester, Bristol, Edinburgh, Glasgow and TCD are probably better depts than Aberystwyth. For top firms, Wales is easily the least likely destination out of England, Scotland, Wales and NI. League tables mean nothing, Dundee's in the top 20 for CS but hardly any of its graduates make it in the top firms and the department is miles behind most top 30 universities.
    You also fail to realise not all students get the required grades to get into those top universities.

    Aber is 13th highest for computer science in the employability tables, therefore making it a more desirable option than a vast amount of other English Universities and Scottish Universities.
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    You also fail to realise not all students get the required grades to get into those top universities.

    Aber is 13th highest for computer science in the employability tables, therefore making it a more desirable option than a vast amount of other English Universities and Scottish Universities.
    These holy grail of tables you are using simply measure if you have A job after 6 months, hence ignoring critical factors like who may go for postgrads and whether they are working for MS or McDs. According to them, Oxford Brookes makes you more employable than Oxford, and Newcastle CS grads do better than Warwick and Durham. I suggest you go get a closer look at the composition of CS graduates in the top firms in the country before coming here and talking nonsense. If your plan is to simply follow them for university, all I can say is good luck, because when you step into the graduate market, you may more than need it.
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    (Original post by Spinnerette)
    I wasn't meaning you as in me I was meaning you in the general sense.
    I know.

    Did I say anywhere I was annoyed with Wales having a budget? Could it not be that I'm annoyed with England? Victim complex much.
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    (Original post by ish90an)
    These holy grail of tables you are using simply measure if you have A job after 6 months, hence ignoring critical factors like who may go for postgrads and whether they are working for MS or McDs. According to them, Oxford Brookes makes you more employable than Oxford, and Newcastle CS grads do better than Warwick and Durham. I suggest you go get a closer look at the composition of CS graduates in the top firms in the country before coming here and talking nonsense. If your plan is to simply follow them for university, all I can say is good luck, because when you step into the graduate market, you may more than need it.
    I have done. I was merely using that as an example :facepalm:

    you are really dumb if you think someone is going to strictly go off them.

    Again, you do not listen as I told you not to reply.

    I've worked for one of the top IT firms in the UK, I've actually interviewed graduates about such things so therefore I do think I know more than you as it was my job.

    The only reason I changed job was for family reasons and now I'm getting back into IT through university as when I go to another employer I not only want past experience but I want good qualifications to be able to progress quicker through the ranks, or start off higher.

    Dont try and give me a dressing down, I know all about the IT sector. I've looked at far more in depth statistics than those I provided.

    I just showed them to the other person as an example to look for more than just the league table ranking.

    Please go away now as you are very irritating. Everything I say on here is constantly bombarded as you instantaneously jump down people's throats. The discussion was between me and someone else, please do not interrupt as I will block you in the end as its getting very annoying. I find it unbelievable that you consist of almost 85% of the people who quoted me, bit internet stalkerish dont you think ?
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    (Original post by jb9191)
    I have done. I was merely using that as an example :facepalm:

    you are really dumb if you think someone is going to strictly go off them.

    Again, you do not listen as I told you not to reply.

    I've worked for one of the top IT firms in the UK, I've actually interviewed graduates about such things so therefore I do think I know more than you as it was my job.

    The only reason I changed job was for family reasons and now I'm getting back into IT through university as when I go to another employer I not only want past experience but I want good qualifications to be able to progress quicker through the ranks, or start off higher.

    Dont try and give me a dressing down, I know all about the IT sector. I've looked at far more in depth statistics than those I provided.

    I just showed them to the other person as an example to look for more than just the league table ranking.

    Please go away now as you are very irritating. Everything I say on here is constantly bombarded as you instantaneously jump down people's throats. The discussion was between me and someone else, please do not interrupt as I will block you in the end as its getting very annoying. I find it unbelievable that you consist of almost 85% of the people who quoted me, bit internet stalkerish dont you think ?
    Really? The best you can do is "go away" and throw a hissy fit? This is the Debate forum, don't like it don't talk here, and don't respond.
    If you are going to use stats from some paper(as you were) and then get shown to be wrong, be prepared to take criticism for it instead of telling us how you once interviewed grads and how you have looked at some secret stash of in-depth stats you haven't sourced anywhere before and expect everyone to accept your authority. On the internet, everyone's a millionaire.

    EDIT: Forgot to add this, but you may be slightly late on that ignore threat.
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    (Original post by ish90an)
    Really? The best you can do is "go away" and throw a hissy fit? Did I throw a hissy fit? No. I just told you to stop quoting me. If you were an adult you would but somehow I see the immature side of men that so many girls go on about. It must be true because you're displaying immaturity to its greatest. Especially with the secret stash gag down there.

    This is the Debate forum, don't like it don't talk here, and don't respond.
    If you are going to use stats from some paper(as you were) and then get shown to be wrong, I weren't wrong because I was merely showing that you shouldn't just use the league table position when choosing a university, which is right. be prepared to take criticism for it instead of telling us how you once interviewed grads and how you have looked at some secret stash grow up :facepalm: of in-depth stats you haven't sourced anywhere before and expect everyone to accept your authority. On the internet, everyone's a millionaire. No. I am just commenting on my past employment.
    Debating and internet harassment are two different things. Maybe you should look them up. Also, as stated before, I do not want to converse with an Indian Nationalist who looks at degrading images of women on the internet.

    Did I claim to be a millionaire? No. grow up.

    I have interviewed graduates, with my uncles firm. I clearly pointed that out to you in a previous discussion. You do realise IT is a massive part of economics don't you? ( rhetorical question).

    The fact is as soon as I mentioned a bunch of stats you took that as stone wall evidence and instantly went on an onslaught.

    It was merely showing that the league table position is not always the best thing to judge a university by - any employer will tell you that.

    Also, secret stash? Really, you do seem incredibly immature to be honest.

    It was basic work material. You can get out of your harry potter cloak now of mysterious IT files etc.

    Now, enough is enough, I've clearly explained to you my point, you've explained yours which has no relevance to the topic whatsoever, so that's it now. Please, in the future do not quote me, as you are, as I've said previously, very annoying.
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    (Original post by Cicerao)
    I know.

    Did I say anywhere I was annoyed with Wales having a budget? Could it not be that I'm annoyed with England? Victim complex much.
    I don;t. I'm sorry for replying to you.
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    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    Cardiff is top for one subject, and one subject only. Cardiff appears 13 times in the top ten. Aberystwyth is top for nothing, appears 5 times in the top 10.

    Cardiff is ranked 42nd and Aberystwyth is ranked 48th. Computer science, the subject you champion here, Aberystwyth doesn't even make the top 40 in subject tables.

    Cardiff for law, according to you is good also, but a look at the table suggests that it isn't that great as it comes 34th. Glamorgan comes 86th in the full table, and it's computer course has a graduate employment rate of 50%

    Based on those facts, I would not want to attend a Welsh university. On the whole, English universities are much better.
    Aberystwyth reguarly comes top in polls for student satisfaction (not just for Britain but for the world). I wake up in the morning in a room overlooking the sea on one side, and the mountains of Snowdonia on the other side. It is the best uni location in Britain. We have beach parties all the time, there is an unbeatable atmosphere here and we dont do badly when it comes to academic polls - we are usually in the top third, and the top 10 for various subjects. Aber has a long history, it has been around since the mid 1800's, with links going back to medieval times.

    So you dont want to come here? Its your loss
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    (Original post by williamjaba)
    Aberystwyth reguarly comes top in polls for student satisfaction (not just for Britain but for the world). I wake up in the morning in a room overlooking the sea on one side, and the mountains of Snowdonia on the other side. It is the best uni location in Britain. We have beach parties all the time, there is an unbeatable atmosphere here and we dont do badly when it comes to academic polls - we are usually in the top third, and the top 10 for various subjects. Aber has a long history, it has been around since the mid 1800's, with links going back to medieval times.

    So you dont want to come here? Its your loss
    I don't like Wales.

    I don't want to live on the coast.

    Aber doesn't do the course I want.

    There are other coastal universities for beach parties, the unbeatable atmosphere is subjective, the room over looking the sea and snowdonia sounds impressive but it's really not my bag. I'm sure someone would rather wake up in inner-city London...

    As for the academia, Aber is an okay university, it's really good for some subjects, I'm sure. Most unis have a speciality.

    Best location in Britain? I doubt it, but again that's subjective. I'm glad you enjoy Aberystwyth, but I'm not keen.
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    (Original post by ilickbatteries)
    I don't like Wales. Nationalist and you need to grow up.

    I don't want to live on the coast. Your loss - its lovely.

    Aber doesn't do the course I want. Maybe Aber anticipated your a nationalist idiot.

    There are other coastal universities for beach parties, the unbeatable atmosphere is subjective, the room over looking the sea and snowdonia sounds impressive but it's really not my bag. I'm sure someone would rather wake up in inner-city London...

    Yes because air pollution - cars beeping and people shouting in busy streets is what everyone loves.

    As for the academia, Aber is an okay university, it's really good for some subjects, I'm sure. Most unis have a speciality.

    Best location in Britain? I doubt it, but again that's subjective. I'm glad you enjoy Aberystwyth, but I'm not keen.

    It all depends on preference but Aber is a good university and has a good reputation with employers. Well it has with the two IT firms i've worked with. They encouraged me to go there and that's is why I am in 2011 hopefully.
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    To be honest, I really think that england should also have none of their fees increased as it is not only unfair but will also create even more conflict between the people of Wales, England , Scotland and Northern Ireland.

    And, I'm Welsh by the way
 
 
 
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