Hey there! Sign in to join this conversationNew here? Join for free

Which universities will charge above £6000? Watch

Announcements
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    [QUOTE=Gaeilgeoir;28890313]I completely disagree. Science and engineering courses are the most important ones in the economy these days. If anything, their importance will be further emphasised in the new tuition fees measures. In Australia, STEM courses are cheaper than all other courses, due to their "national importance". I think a system like that should be considered in the UK.



    [QUOTE]

    The problem with a uni with engineering and science facilities is they are expensive to run and renew and they are hard to get rid off if funding drops suddenly. The government has already dropped funding to unis by 80% and theres no reason to think they will not cut further. You may not remember during the last Tory government, a lot of science jobs in unis were cut if they were not deemed to have a market application which would be profitable .

    If I was a VC, would I gamble on the promises of a government who seems hell bent on cutting uni funding and over which I have no control? Or would I want to rely on my organisation's own resources to recruit students all of whom will bring in guaranteed income?

    As a VC, I would want to drive down all my fixed costs including expensive facilities and bring in a lot of arts and humanities subjects that could use far cheaper facilities that can be rented and can be got rid off at short notice if student numbers fall.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    The problem with a uni with engineering and science facilities is they are expensive to run and renew and they are hard to get rid off if funding drops suddenly. The government has already dropped funding to unis by 80% and theres no reason to think they will not cut further. You may not remember during the last Tory government, a lot of science jobs in unis were cut if they were not deemed to have a market application which would be profitable .

    If I was a VC, would I gamble on the promises of a government who seems hell bent on cutting uni funding and over which I have no control? Or would I want to rely on my organisation's own resources to recruit students all of whom will bring in guaranteed income?

    As a VC, I would want to drive down all my fixed costs including expensive facilities and bring in a lot of arts and humanities subjects that could use far cheaper facilities that can be rented and can be got rid off at short notice if student numbers fall.
    From what you are syaing it sounds like the government funding is the only income stream universities have. This is quite far from the truth as all UCAS approved unis have many other income streams....such as the UNION for 1! Also Foreign students; who pay full wack, research, sponsorship from international, national, regional and local businesses, etc etc.

    It really isnt so doom and gloom as the picture being painted. It will maintain the integrity and quality of the education rather than trying to squeeze as much value from very little cash which will result in a drastic drop in quality.

    Also, whilst i agree (although a little obvious) that fixed costs should be managed, like they should with any business, (once again im afraid i have to point out that they are businesses), your comment about bringing in more courses that are less capital intesive is presicly what you want to avoid as this will detrementally effect the quality of all degrees. This would be a ridiculous thing to do.

    The UK currently has an excellent reputation for good quality higher education and the measures will go some way to retain this...in my view
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    You can see where the £6000 mark comes form.

    "In the UK as a whole, income from fees - including fees paid directly by students such as postgraduates and overseas students - makes up about 29% of universities' total funding, which was £25.4bn in 2008/09.

    Another 35% comes from government funding bodies, while the rest comes from other sources such as research grants, endowments and investments.

    As a very rough guide, universities say the average classroom undergraduate degree costs about £7,000 a year to teach, of which just over £3,000 currently comes from fees and the rest from government funding (=£4000)."


    If they cut by 80%, it leaves around a £1000(25%) of government funding.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by profoflife)
    From what you are syaing it sounds like the government funding is the only income stream universities have. This is quite far from the truth as all UCAS approved unis have many other income streams....such as the UNION for 1! Also Foreign students; who pay full wack, research, sponsorship from international, national, regional and local businesses, etc etc.

    It really isnt so doom and gloom as the picture being painted. It will maintain the integrity and quality of the education rather than trying to squeeze as much value from very little cash which will result in a drastic drop in quality.

    Also, whilst i agree (although a little obvious) that fixed costs should be managed, like they should with any business, (once again im afraid i have to point out that they are businesses), your comment about bringing in more courses that are less capital intesive is presicly what you want to avoid as this will detrementally effect the quality of all degrees. This would be a ridiculous thing to do.

    The UK currently has an excellent reputation for good quality higher education and the measures will go some way to retain this...in my view
    No-one is saying anything about a drop in quality. What I am saying is the unis will move from subjects which are expensive to run with inflexible fixed costs to ones that are cheaper to run with more flexible costs.

    This is a rational response to uncertain income streams. Its no different from industry that out sources all sorts of services like call handling, IT and manufacturing while retaining functions like marketing and brand management.

    Unis may also centralise expensive facilities like IT and laboratories and rent them out to other unis. This would be easy to do in large cities with mulitple unis like Manchester, Birmimgham and London.
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    No-one is saying anything about a drop in quality. What I am saying is the unis will move from subjects which are expensive to run with inflexible fixed costs to ones that are cheaper to run with more flexible costs.

    This is a rational response to uncertain income streams. Its no different from industry that out sources all sorts of services like call handling, IT and manufacturing while retaining functions like marketing and brand management.

    Unis may also centralise expensive facilities like IT and laboratories and rent them out to other unis. This would be easy to do in large cities with mulitple unis like Manchester, Birmimgham and London.
    If a uni moves away from capital intensive course to save cash, this will cripple the value, quality and integrity of UK universites. It is as daft as McDonalds only selling fries because making burgers is expensive.

    The income streams these days are not that uncertain either - with many having long-term sponsorship deals, reasrach grants which span over years etc.

    Your point about renting facilities is a good one and i know many do this already as well.

    Centralising functions in a university doesnt make sense as they are already centralised! I dont understand what you mean as it doesnt make sense - how many unis have these functions spread across the country, let alone the world? Very few i would say.

    You cant outsource Engineering degrees to China!
    Online

    19
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by profoflife)

    You cant outsource Engineering degrees to China!
    There might be some exciting experiments in lecturing by teleconference

    In terms of it's direct effect on me as a current 2nd year, I'm worried that Cable will provoke a lecturers strike right in the middle of my 3rd year and shaft my degree class right out the window.
    Online

    21
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Joinedup)
    There might be some exciting experiments in lecturing by teleconference
    And in video recording.

    A lot of arts lectures have minimal interaction between lecturer and student and a lot of core lectures (particularly introductory ones) are virtually identical across the country and often don't change from year to year.

    Live theatre may be better than the tele, but the cost per viewer of a TV play is a lot lower than an evening at the National Theatre.

    Staff are a university's highest cost. If one can strip out staff, the cost of providing degrees will fall.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by profoflife)
    If a uni moves away from capital intensive course to save cash, this will cripple the value, quality and integrity of UK universites. It is as daft as McDonalds only selling fries because making burgers is expensive.

    The income streams these days are not that uncertain either - with many having long-term sponsorship deals, reasrach grants which span over years etc.

    Your point about renting facilities is a good one and i know many do this already as well.

    Centralising functions in a university doesnt make sense as they are already centralised! I dont understand what you mean as it doesnt make sense - how many unis have these functions spread across the country, let alone the world? Very few i would say.

    You cant outsource Engineering degrees to China!
    McD sells burgers because they make money, if they didn't they wouldn't bother. McD tries a lot of different foods and those that make money are retained but those that don't are dropped.

    McD is an interesting example here because a larger percentage of its "resturants" are franchises. The same can be done with unis where students sign up with a uni but the teaching is provided by independent private or public entities

    What I'm saying is the opposite of centralising. Arts and humanities can be taught virtually anywhere. Why have expensive arts buildings in prime locations when you can sell them off or rent them to corporations and rent cheaper offices elsewhere?

    Why can't you outsource engineering degrees to China. Students can spend a year in China as part of their degree course. China is one of the most advanced manufacturing countries in the world using the latest technology.
    Offline

    20
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by nulli tertius)
    And in video recording.

    A lot of arts lectures have minimal interaction between lecturer and student and a lot of core lectures (particularly introductory ones) are virtually identical across the country and often don't change from year to year.

    Live theatre may be better than the tele, but the cost per viewer of a TV play is a lot lower than an evening at the National Theatre.

    Staff are a university's highest cost. If one can strip out staff, the cost of providing degrees will fall.
    Sounds like a recommendation for the Open University.
    Offline

    3
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Nelo Angelo)
    All of them, exactly the same way they all charge max tuition fees now even though they were introduced in an effort to make the unis more competative by marking down their prices to attract more students whereas the elite like oxbridge could afford to charge more
    Yeah this is what I was gonna say.
    There's no law that tuition has to be £3,290 at the moment, but everywhere charges it just because that's the maximum they can.. if everywhere starts to charge the highest amount, it will pretty much just be the same as it is now.. just more expensive. ie there will be no tiered education so Oxbridge won't be able to charge more, etc.
    Online

    19
    ReputationRep:
    Well if you reduce the universities to degree factories the next naural step from the tory playbook is to close the factories down.

    Any research needs doing can be outsourced to non-union academics in China where the govenment knows how to deal with uppity intellectuals.


    Name:  cable-burns.jpg
Views: 91
Size:  20.6 KB
    Excellent!
    Offline

    0
    ReputationRep:
    (Original post by Maker)
    McD sells burgers because they make money, if they didn't they wouldn't bother. McD tries a lot of different foods and those that make money are retained but those that don't are dropped.

    McD is an interesting example here because a larger percentage of its "resturants" are franchises. The same can be done with unis where students sign up with a uni but the teaching is provided by independent private or public entities

    What I'm saying is the opposite of centralising. Arts and humanities can be taught virtually anywhere. Why have expensive arts buildings in prime locations when you can sell them off or rent them to corporations and rent cheaper offices elsewhere?

    Why can't you outsource engineering degrees to China. Students can spend a year in China as part of their degree course. China is one of the most advanced manufacturing countries in the world using the latest technology.
    Evidently you dont work or have any experience of manufacturing or Engineering anywhere......

    Whilst in theory what you say about DECENTRALISING is feasible, the reality is that quality, credibility, reputation, integrity and a whole load of other things, would be lost. I certainly would not choose a degree from a uni that had farmed out its facilities and resources to other companies and worst still franchised their brand! McD can control this due the simplicity of the product and the strict processes they have....its almost impossible to do when the main product is human capital and its output.

    If you were studying Mech Eng in London, would you travel to Aberbeen for a lab? I dont think you would. It is not cost effective in any way as cost would actually increase. It is bad enough having to travel across a city to go to different lectures and seminars, let alone across the country or different countries. The theory is good, but the practice is different i think.
 
 
 
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • Poll
    Will you be richer or poorer than your parents?
    Useful resources

    Groups associated with this forum:

    View associated groups
  • See more of what you like on The Student Room

    You can personalise what you see on TSR. Tell us a little about yourself to get started.

  • The Student Room, Get Revising and Marked by Teachers are trading names of The Student Room Group Ltd.

    Register Number: 04666380 (England and Wales), VAT No. 806 8067 22 Registered Office: International House, Queens Road, Brighton, BN1 3XE

    Quick reply
    Reputation gems: You get these gems as you gain rep from other members for making good contributions and giving helpful advice.