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    (Original post by Flux)
    You have a jolly warped idea of what culture is, culture is similar interests in art, music, food, clothing, sports, other past times etc.
    Not necessarily warped but bloody narrow.....

    .....British culture is about rights of the individual and freedom that comes with our civil liberties...........

    By that definition there is absolutely no difference between British culture, American culture, French, Italian, Spanish etc etc etc cultures. I think there's a bit more to national cultural characteristics than that.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Not necessarily warped but bloody narrow.....

    .....British culture is about rights of the individual and freedom that comes with our civil liberties...........

    By that definition there is absolutely no difference between British culture, American culture, French, Italian, Spanish etc etc etc cultures. I think there's a bit more to national cultural characteristics than that.
    Fair enough. But I think these are the most important things about our culture. They are not worth sacrificing in a desperate bid to bring back a by-gone era of village churches and local butchers, which is how I view the BNP's manifesto.
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    (Original post by Flux)
    You have a jolly warped idea of what culture is, culture is similar interests in art, music, food, clothing, sports, other past times etc.
    Culture to me is the unique heitage, rituals, experiances, surroundings, and enviroment evolved from it's indiginous people.
    Culture is a result of the people, it's not a fashion they follow, or subscribe to, it's the fashion they cultivated with their evolutionary development over centuries and millenia.
    It is the beating heart of a nation, the mirror, the reflection of it's inhabitants, the barometer of it's health and development.
    It's something more complex, and organic than any defenition will permit, yet something that every citizen contributes to, experiances, and recognises as if it were the most simple, ordinary and mundane thing in the world.
    It's something to be cherished and protected.
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    (Original post by Johnny)
    Fair enough. But I think these are the most important things about our culture. They are not worth sacrificing in a desperate bid to bring back a by-gone era of village churches and local butchers, which is how I view the BNP's manifesto.
    They are only likely to be sacrificed on the altar of multicult. The freedoms of speech, association, and conscience are most at risk, and most curtailed already because of the need to "manage diversity" as Howard has said.
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    (Original post by Johnny)
    Fair enough. But I think these are the most important things about our culture. They are not worth sacrificing in a desperate bid to bring back a by-gone era of village churches and local butchers, which is how I view the BNP's manifesto.
    They are being raped and butchered and sacrificed every day by our government. If you're worried about the erosion of liberty I'd keep a much closer eye on the Labour Party than the BNP if I were you.
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    (Original post by ArthurOliver)
    They are only likely to be sacrificed on the altar of multicult. The freedoms of speech, association, and conscience are most at risk, and most curtailed already because of the need to "manage diversity" as Howard has said.
    Ha! Great minds! I was going to go with the "sacrificed on the altar of something-or-rather" I opted instead for "They are being raped and butchered and sacrificed every day by our government" without any reference to an altar at all.
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    (Original post by EastMidlander)
    Culture to me is the unique heitage, rituals, experiances, surroundings, and enviroment evolved from it's indiginous people.
    Culture is a result of the people, it's not a fashion they follow, or subscribe to, it's the fashion they cultivated with their evolutionary development over centuries and millenia.
    It is the beating heart of a nation, the mirror, the reflection of it's inhabitants, the barometer of it's health and development.
    It's something more complex, and organic than any defenition will permit, yet something that every citizen contributes to, experiances, and recognises as if it were the most simple, ordinary and mundane thing in the world.
    It's something to be cherished and protected.
    Lovely stuff.

    And where you say it cannot be defined, it's worth adding that it need not be defined. The idea that if Nick Griffin cannot prove fish and chips are British has anything whatsoever to do with a British nationalism is perverse and idiotic.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    Ha! Great minds! I was going to go with the "sacrificed on the altar of something-or-rather" I opted instead for "They are being raped and butchered and sacrificed every day by our government" without any reference to an altar at all.
    yea, I'm not really a raping and a butchering guy!
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    (Original post by EastMidlander)
    Culture to me is the unique heitage, rituals, experiances, surroundings, and enviroment evolved from it's indiginous people.
    Culture is a result of the people, it's not a fashion they follow, or subscribe to, it's the fashion they cultivated with their evolutionary development over centuries and millenia.
    It is the beating heart of a nation, the mirror, the reflection of it's inhabitants, the barometer of it's health and development.
    It's something more complex, and organic than any defenition will permit, yet something that ever citizen contributes to, experiances, and recognises as if it were the most simple, ordinary and mundane thing in the world.
    It's something to be cherished and protected.
    I know this sounds ridiculous probably (and I'm sure it will result in a flaming), but I could quite happily live in a small french or german town for a year and not feel too desperately homesick. I have done for a few months and loved it. I don't often feel that British to be honest and I suppose I am partly against the BNP because I see that as jingoism in all honesty, and that just doesn't sit well with me.

    Don't get me wrong I am very proud of my country and it's achievements and of course I love it, but I definately don't feel as British as many do, I'm sure. EDIT: To be honest even re-reading what EastMidlander wrote makes me feel a bit wierd, and I definately would never describe it as "lovely stuff", but each to their own. Variety is the spice of life after all.

    Please don't now point the finger and accuse me of selling out on Britain just to accomodate immigrant scroungers. That is not the case.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    They are being raped and butchered and sacrificed every day by our government. If you're worried about the erosion of liberty I'd keep a much closer eye on the Labour Party than the BNP if I were you.
    I know I know. ID cards are my bete noire believe me. It's just that the BNP seem to be a more extreme version of this, at least for minorities.
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    (Original post by Johnny)
    I know I know. ID cards are my bete noire believe me. It's just that the BNP seem to be a more extreme version of this, at least for minorities.
    But the BNP will get in power on the same day I fall pregnant with triplets so I wouldn't worry too much about it.

    And there are far more serious concerns than ID cards BTW.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    But the BNP will get in power on the same day I fall pregnant with triplets so I wouldn't worry too much about it.
    hah! But the thing is that I feel dead against it more than labour because of it's supporters, who are mostly jingoistic it seems to me. I know labour are worse for the erosion of liberty as regards the majority, but the BNP propose more extreme measures in their manifesto against minorities, and as a bleeding heart liberal this upsets me. It upsets me that someone could think such things about a whole race of people/religious group and not care about the individuals themselves. Most muslims I know range accross the whole political spectrum. One is even a hardcore trotskyite! So I hate this image that all muslims are out to get us; I know based on my own experience that it's quite simply hype.

    And the thing is that I find BNP-ers' views so incomprehensible that I have to argue against them and I get really arsey because I'm frustrated that peopel get so worked up about race. I'm sure that sounds really arrogant, but I'm just trying to explain why I am so vehemently against the BNP and why I come across as a bit of a knob in some posts; I get too emotionally involved because I feel very passionately about this subject.
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    (Original post by Johnny)
    hah! But the thing is that I feel dead against it more than labour because of it's supporters, who are mostly jingoistic it seems to me. I know labour are worse for the erosion of rights as a whole, but the BNP propose more extreme measures in their manifesto against minorities, and as a bleeding heart liberal this upsets me. It upsets me that someone could think such things about a whole race of people/religious group and not care about the individuals themselves. Most muslims I know range accross the whole political spectrum. One is even a hardcore trotskyite! So I hate this image that all muslims are out to get us; I know based on my own experience that it's quite simply hype.
    I'm sure it is hype. Seems to me however that the entire country is asleep at the wheel as the juggernaut crashes through a cliffside barrier marked "LIBERTY ENDS HERE"

    Nero fiddles while Rome burns.
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    (Original post by Howard)
    I'm sure it is hype. Seems to me however that the entire country is asleep at the wheel as the juggernaut crashes through a cliffside barrier marked "LIBERTY ENDS HERE"

    Nero fiddles while Rome burns.
    Fortunately I don't feel it's that bad yet. Somtimes I feel we're edging closer to Oceania, but then the sun shines and it all seems okay. God I sound so naieve. And you sound even more cynical of government than me. How so?
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    (Original post by SolInvincitus)
    I would like to make a point, especially to AO. I have nothing against Nationalism, in fact I am completely for it. I also completely agree with you that there is a problem with many immigrants and an immigration policy that allows people to arrive here, segregate themselves fomr our society, all while they reap the benefits of this nation. I believe that Britons, regardless of ancestry, should all seek to preserve and perpetuate Britains long and glorious history, identity and her cultures. I dislike PC, and am really very conservative.

    What I have a problem with, however, are concocted racial arguements that are not only demeaning to people who are victims of their inevitable results, but also dangerous as history has proven time and time again.

    When it comes to newcomers, I also believe that they must be offered a culture in order to accept it. Only if our immigration policy emphasises assimilation and integration can Britain be spared from the strife that has plagued many societies around the world where seperate communities fail to interact and integrate.
    I agree with you again SolInvictus. The issue isn't immigrants destroying British culture. It's about British culture not being properly defined in the first place, at least in terms of "values".
    Most immigrants have a profound respect for Britain, especially those who moved here several decades ago and just want to integrate themselves within the middle class, get a nice house and raise their children in British culture. Sure there is definitely a minority who reject British culture but to present them as the norm, is ridiculous.
    I also agree that there isn't an exclusively white culture within the UK. The only reason it appeared there was one for quite a long time was because few non-white people had got into the middle class. Now, if you look at a posh little close somewhere in Southern England, you'll see quite a few people of Sub-Asian or Afro-Carribean origin, most of whom consider themselves to be totally British and if I wanted to be totally politically incorrect, I'd say they're "white-washed" as they like to say in North America, if someone believes that in order to be middle class you have to be white...

    Britons are so confused by their own culture that they don't know how to integrate immigrants. What with regional nationalisms, a slightly racist view of Britishness...
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    (Original post by Johnny)
    I know this sounds ridiculous probably (and I'm sure it will result in a flaming), but I could quite happily live in a small french or german town for a year and not feel too desperately homesick.
    That doesn't sound ridiculous, I'm sure many people here could live happily in a different location for a year, and not feel to desperately homesick.
    I won't even pick up on the fact that you only said a year, and therefore could be interpreted as suggesting you have ties to the nation that are to strong to go away more than a year, but I will point out that it doesn't change who or what you are.
    If you did live in a small French or German town for a year you would be taking a little bit of our culture with you, because you are part of our culture, and our culture is part of you, and that little bit of culture could have an eefect on their culture.
    No matter how hard you tried you could never be the same as the people who had lived in that little town all their life.

    I don't often feel that British to be honest and I suppose I am partly against the BNP because I see that as jingoism in all honesty, and that just doesn't sit well with me.
    It's not something that manifests itself in all people, all of the time, I doubt that anyone here, no matter how patriotic, or nationalist, walks down the street with strong compulsions to sing god save the queen, and wave a union jack 24/7. That's not how it is.
    However, how did you feel on July 7th for example?
    Were you indifferent to what happened, apathetic to it all, or were glued to updates, feeling sick inside your stomache, or angry and wanting revenge, or filled with a sense of despair?
    When the national team scores a crucial goal in a match do you feel a sense of elation inside of you, or could you not be bothered?
    When you see a paper, do you read the British news on the front page, the British news on the back page, or flick to page 9 and read about the rest of the world first?
    This is all part of what it's about.
    We live in a time of apathy, where national pride and patriotism are supressed, and portrayed as synonymous with racism.
    Where people feel a sense of dirty shame if they are to openly supportive of their nation, it's considered vulgar, and crass, but you still find yourself gravitating towards your own people, you still listen to English based music (look at our charts), cheer when the nations sportsmen and women win, or go to the pub on English hours.
    You put your knife and fork on the plate, when the meal is over, not on the table cloth like other nations do, you find the things you evolved to love more aesthetically, than the things other cultures admire, the arts, landscapes, even the shape of a woman.
    This is all part and parcel of what it is.
    It doesn't require that you shave your head, and goose step through the streets with a big union jack, screaming "pakis go home", that's just an extreme cartoon variation of patriotism.
    I'm sure in your heart you are every bit the Brit, and you have no choice in it, because British culture is part of you, and you are part of it, and don't worry about the bnp, they wouldn't win an election in a one horse race.
    They don't represent Britain, or British culture.

    Don't get me wrong I am very proud of my country and it's achievements and of course I love it, but I definately don't feel as British as many do, I'm sure.
    I'm sure you feel just as British as many. You just don't feel a need to make a show of it.
    Lot's of people are the same, in fact some even say that it's a sign of insecurity in your nation to over do the flags etc.
    I'm as patriotic as they come, I love my nation and I want to protect and preserve it, but I haven't rushed out to get a union jack avatar yet.
    It doesn't make me feel any less of a patriot, because I am secure in my beliefs.

    EDIT: To be honest even re-reading what EastMidlander wrote makes me feel a bit wierd, and I definately would never describe it as "lovely stuff", but each to their own. Variety is the spice of life after all.
    I wouldn't have described it as lovely stuff either, and I wrote it
    It wasn't a patriotic call to arms, I don't do that, just a simple description of what culture is.
    I think some might find it "lovely stuff" as they probably find it refreshing to hear someone being pro-British these days, it's quite the rarity, these days we seem to be all apologetic all the time.
    Just as there is no need to over do it with the union jacks etc., I also think to many people over do the apologetic stuff.
    Britain has no need to say sorry.

    Please don't now point the finger and accuse me of selling out on Britain just to accomodate immigrant scroungers. That is not the case.
    *points finger*
    You've sold out on Britain, just to accomodate immigrant scroungers!!
    J/K
    I don't think your views are as strange as you feel, just that current society makes us feel strange about discussing such subjects, and all apologetic.
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    (Original post by SamTheMan)
    I agree with you again SolInvictus. The issue isn't immigrants destroying British culture. It's about British culture not being properly defined in the first place, at least in terms of "values".
    Most immigrants have a profound respect for Britain, especially those who moved here several decades ago and just want to integrate themselves within the middle class, get a nice house and raise their children in British culture. Sure there is definitely a minority who reject British culture but to present them as the norm, is ridiculous.
    You seem to be a little confused here.
    You say British culture is not defined, and yet it's defined enough for people to embrace, or reject.
    I also think you're not quite sure what culture is itself.
    You can't actually integrate yourself into a foreign culture.
    It's like coffee integrating itself into tea.

    I also agree that there isn't an exclusively white culture within the UK. The only reason it appeared there was one for quite a long time was because few non-white people had got into the middle class.
    You deffinately appear not to understand the concept of culture, culture is the unique heitage, rituals, experiances, surroundings, and enviroment evolved from it's indiginous people.
    Culture is a result of the people, it's not a fashion they follow, or subscribe to, it's the fashion they cultivated with their evolutionary development over centuries and millenia.
    It is the beating heart of a nation, the mirror, the reflection of it's inhabitants, the barometer of it's health and development.
    It's something more complex, and organic than any defenition will permit, yet something that ever citizen contributes to, experiances, and recognises as if it were the most simple, ordinary and mundane thing in the world.
    It's something to be cherished and protected.
    You can put as many people into a different class level, but it doesn't alter the above facts, and if you do put them into that new surrounding they corrupt the culture, they don't 100% absorb it, or it 100% absorb them.

    Now, if you look at a posh little close somewhere in Southern England, you'll see quite a few people of Sub-Asian or Afro-Carribean origin, most of whom consider themselves to be totally British and if I wanted to be totally politically incorrect, I'd say they're "white-washed" as they like to say in North America, if someone believes that in order to be middle class you have to be white...
    And these Sub-Asians and Afro-Carribeans live 100% British lives, just like the White guy down the road?
    Of course they don't.
    I suggest you have probably never even been in their houses, if you think they have.
    What do you think goes on the table, on a sunday lunch time, or a christmas day, what music do they listen to, what tv shows do they watch?
    (surveys have been done, so don't suggest the same as their white neighbours)
    They have different cultures.
    Britain is not about "thinking" you are British, it's a lot more complex than a label.

    Britons are so confused by their own culture that they don't know how to integrate immigrants. What with regional nationalisms, a slightly racist view of Britishness...
    Total poppycock.
    You clearly don't understand what culture is, or the affects of integration etc.
    You seem to think it's all about the nationality listed on your passport.
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    (Original post by EastMidlander)
    You seem to be a little confused here.
    You say British culture is not defined, and yet it's defined enough for people to embrace, or reject.
    I also think you're not quite sure what culture is itself.
    You can't actually integrate yourself into a foreign culture.
    It's like coffee integrating itself into tea.



    You deffinately appear not to understand the concept of culture, culture is the unique heitage, rituals, experiances, surroundings, and enviroment evolved from it's indiginous people.
    Culture is a result of the people, it's not a fashion they follow, or subscribe to, it's the fashion they cultivated with their evolutionary development over centuries and millenia.
    It is the beating heart of a nation, the mirror, the reflection of it's inhabitants, the barometer of it's health and development.
    It's something more complex, and organic than any defenition will permit, yet something that ever citizen contributes to, experiances, and recognises as if it were the most simple, ordinary and mundane thing in the world.
    It's something to be cherished and protected.
    You can put as many people into a different class level, but it doesn't alter the above facts, and if you do put them into that new surrounding they corrupt the culture, they don't 100% absorb it, or it 100% absorb them.



    And these Sub-Asians and Afro-Carribeans live 100% British lives, just like the White guy down the road?
    Of course they don't.
    I suggest you have probably never even been in their houses, if you think they have.
    What do you think goes on the table, on a sunday lunch time, or a christmas day, what music do they listen to, what tv shows do they watch?
    (surveys have been done, so don't suggest the same as their white neighbours)
    They have different cultures.
    Britain is not about "thinking" you are British, it's a lot more complex than a label.



    Total poppycock.
    You clearly don't understand what culture is, or the affects of integration etc.
    You seem to think it's all about the nationality listed on your passport.
    You're clearly the one who doesn't seem to actually understand the issues surrounding British identity.

    British culture is so clearly defined that some people claim to be English, Welsh or Scottish and not wanting to be British?

    If British culture is so clearly defined, why don't we have a clearly defined national anthem or national holiday?
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    (Original post by SamTheMan)
    You're clearly the one who doesn't seem to actually understand the issues surrounding British identity.
    Perhaps you can explain it to me, this time without the errors and crap from last time?

    British culture is so clearly defined that some people claim to be English, Welsh or Scottish and not wanting to be British?
    Of course, just like people come from northern France, southern France, rural France or urban France.
    Culture doesn't make us identical drones, of course you get regional diversity.
    It's the same in every nation.
    But the national identity is not made up of the differences but the common ground.
    It's the bonds we share.

    If British culture is so clearly defined, why don't we have a clearly defined national anthem
    We do einstien.

    or national holiday?
    So culture boils down to a national holiday?
    You need to go off and research what culture is, you have no clue at present.
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    (Original post by EastMidlander)
    Perhaps you can explain it to me, this time without the errors and crap from last time?



    Of course, just like people come from northern France, southern France, rural France or urban France.
    Culture doesn't make us identical drones, of course you get regional diversity.
    It's the same in every nation.
    But the national identity is not made up of the differences but the common ground.
    It's the bonds we share.
    Yes because when you were talking about what it felt to be British, you mentioned in a post above that it was feeling pride when seeing your national football team. I wasn't aware there was a British football team but thanks for revealing that to me...


    We do einstien.
    God Save The Queen is not really a national anthem. Royalists all over the world, in the Dominions, use it.

    So culture boils down to a national holiday?
    You need to go off and research what culture is, you have no clue at present.
    The absence of a national holiday is simply an indicator of the underlying things.
 
 
 
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