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Is Male dominance still present in society? Patriarchy watch

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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    No, but I'm the "stable boy" as I do live in a council flat, :/ I'm just trying to see if the white male has it best or the white middle/upper class male.

    Yeah I'm not arguing that a patriarchy didn't exist in the past (that would be delusional) but class has always had a much larger effect than gender, that was all I was trying to point out.
    I'm in total agreement on those two comments. I believe class has always been a more precise predictor of societal power. From the beginning of heirarchical civilisation right up to today, you're better off being an aristocratic or middle class woman than a working class man, in terms of social influence, comfort and physical safety.

    In that sense, society has never been a pure patriarchy, I agree. But equally, I'd put it to you very strongly that working class women had the least power of them all. An aristocratic male would treat and stable boy's wife with the least consideration... if he ****ed with an aristocratic woman who wasn't his wife, her kinsman would almost certainly come after him.

    If he ****ed with the stable boy's wife, he might come after him... but he was disposable to the aristo-bloke. I take your points, I just want to say that I don't think you can divorce class from the whole question
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    I'm in total agreement on those two comments. I believe class has always been a more precise predictor of societal power. From the beginning of heirarchical civilisation right up to today, you're better off being an aristocratic or middle class woman than a working class man, in terms of social influence, comfort and physical safety.

    In that sense, society has never been a pure patriarchy, I agree. But equally, I'd put it to you very strongly that working class women had the least power of them all. An aristocratic male would treat and stable boy's wife with the least consideration... if he ****ed with an aristocratic woman who wasn't his wife, her kinsman would almost certainly come after him.

    If he ****ed with the stable boy's wife, he might come after him... but he was disposable to the aristo-bloke. I take your points, I just want to say that I don't think you can divorce class from the whole question
    That's all I was trying to point out, socioeconomic status is probably more of a determination of how well you do in society.

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    (Original post by I am Ace)
    **** it.
    I'm just going to say it.
    Feminism is for ****ing idiotic, narcissistic princesses who are feeling sorry for themselves.
    The kind of people who use "inequality" as a medium for getting what they want, "it's all men's faults, oppressing women!"
    If women are so strong, why are they letting men oppress them?
    In actual fact, it's women oppressing men.
    And one day, when the estrogen fueled Nazi party take over the world, men will be sorry for not fighting back.
    Women were brave enough to fight back when men oppressed them years ago, so why can't we do the same and fight back against the feminists?
    Ugh, people like you make me feel ill. Read my previous post, you know nothing about feminists or feminism. http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...0&postcount=79
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    The punishment for rape is usually ten years... Are you suggesting that forced envelopment usually gets the same punishment as rape? Because that's definitely not true, and the reason why is sexual assault doesn't receive the same punishment as rape. Punishments for rape are always high, whereas punishments for other sexual assault are undoubtedly variable.
    Punishments for rape are high because it is a very specific definition. Punishments for sexual assault vary depending on the severity of the assault. A case of forced envelopment deemed to be equivalent to rape can receive an equivalent sentence. You still haven't answered my question in any way - in what way does sentencing for forced envelopment differ to that for rape?
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    (Original post by Chaoshi)
    Your friend gets married, whose last name do you think everyone assumes they'll have? Who might cause some stir by keeping their last name? When people assume they're Mr and Mrs ____, how often do they guess the man's original name, and how often the woman's?
    Your friend tells you that one parent will stay at home with the children, who do you immediately assume it will be?
    Your friend isn't staying home with the children, and is going to work. Your friend is getting seriously judged for this. What gender is your friend?

    It's more ingrained than you think.
    But to be fair are any of these a problem if they are done by choice? If the result of feminism has been choice when it comes to these matters but they still prevail anyway is there really a problem with their continued existence?
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    (Original post by Ronove)
    Punishments for rape are high because it is a very specific definition. Punishments for sexual assault vary depending on the severity of the assault. A case of forced envelopment deemed to be equivalent to rape can receive an equivalent sentence. You still haven't answered my question in any way - in what way does sentencing for forced envelopment differ to that for rape?
    Because the punishment forced envelopment is variable, whereas the punishment for rape is always high.... The only difference between rape and forced envelopment is the genitals used, yet it gets lighter sentencing on average. Edit: actually there's actually no laws on forced envelopment in the UK
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents

    So you could force someone to have intercourse with you (rape in my opinion)
    And.... Get away with it.
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    Because the punishment forced envelopment is variable, whereas the punishment for rape is always high.... The only difference between rape and forced envelopment is the genitals used, yet it gets lighter sentencing on average. Edit: actually there's actually no laws on forced envelopment in the UK
    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/42/contents

    So you could force someone to have intercourse with you (rape in my opinion)
    And.... Get away with it.
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    But have you any statistics to say it actually happens? I've heard of about three individuals, all on internet stories and from Russia, who supposedly forcefully enveloped somebody. I'm not denying that it's possible, it is - but are you suggesting that there are women out there forcing men into sex, and none of those men are doing anything about it? Can you provide any statistics whatsoever as to how often it might happen?

    It just comes across like you care so so much about forced envelopment, but I've never heard of it happening. I don't believe that women are generally sexually aggressive and violent in that way. However, thanks to testosterone and social conditioning, a vast number of men (not all) rape. And its such a huge problem which you just don't seem to care about or address in any way in any of your points. You're just obsessed about talking about instances where men are somehow disadvantaged socially, whilst talking down instances of women's disadvantages, over and over again, and it doesn't go anywhere.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    But have you any statistics to say it actually happens? I've heard of about three individuals, all on internet stories and from Russia, who supposedly forcefully enveloped somebody. I'm not denying that it's possible, it is - but are you suggesting that there are women out there forcing men into sex, and none of those men are doing anything about it? Can you provide any statistics whatsoever as to how often it might happen?
    You're telling me that women commit necrophilia and bestiality more often than forced envelopment? You can't be serious. It's not even recordable in the uk as it isn't under uk laws.

    And haven't you ever heard of date rape drugs? They work on men just as well as on women.

    And actually I could but it's an American report(government)..... Trust me it happens much more often than you seem to believe.

    (Original post by edithwashere)
    It just comes across like you care so so much about forced envelopment, but I've never heard of it happening. I don't believe that women are generally sexually aggressive and violent in that way. However, thanks to testosterone and social conditioning, a vast number of men (not all) rape. And its such a huge problem which you just don't seem to care about or address in any way in any of your points. You're just obsessed about talking about instances where men are somehow disadvantaged socially, whilst talking down instances of women's disadvantages, over and over again, and it doesn't go anywhere.
    No, I'm very concerned about the pay gap, and women in politics (issues that need to be dealing with), but I'm also concerned about male issues. Do you think I like that women are underrepresented in high calibre positions? I'm also concerned about women getting judged for rape in revealing clothing, but I also realize that sexism can (and definitely does) go both ways.


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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    You're telling me that women commit necrophilia and bestiality more often than forced envelopment? You can't be serious. It's not even recordable in the uk as it isn't under uk laws.
    Your first sentence is just downright stupid, I never said that women commit those crimes anyway, can you provide any statistics for your outlandish claims? And if it is happening (regardless of its legal status) why are no men speaking out about it? Why are there no stories whatsoever of this happening, what with internet platforms allowing people all over the globe to tell their story? Hypothetically it exists. But you have provided no evidence, so I'm inclined to disbelieve you.

    (Original post by jreid1994)
    And haven't you ever heard of date rape drugs? They work on men just as well as on women.
    Again, can you quote statistics of how many women actually use these drugs? Of course men can be drugged by women, but is it actually a common occurrence? Is it as common as male-on-female or male-on-male drink spiking? Where is your evidence for your claims?

    (Original post by jreid1994)
    And actually I could but it's an American report(government)..... Trust me it happens much more often than you seem to believe.
    I can't trust you if you expect me to believe outlandish claims with no source of evidence ever being mentioned except your own opinions.

    (Original post by jreid1994)
    No, I'm very concerned about the pay gap, and women in politics (issues that need to be dealing with), but I'm also concerned about male issues. Do you think I like that women are underrepresented in high calibre positions? I'm also concerned about women getting judged for rape in revealing clothing, but I also realize that sexism can (and definitely does) go both ways.
    Well you don't talk about it much, whereas male custody rights, male circumcision, forced envelopment and anything else where you can blame women, you seem to talk about all the time. I've seen you on threads for months now going on about these things, but you certainly don't make anywhere near as much noise for women's rights as you do for men's rights. Since you've accused me of doing the opposite in the past, yeah, I'm going to draw the example to you. It's hypocritical and if you really expect anybody to accept your argument when you keep sidestepping showing evidence for your claims, then you're going to be sorely disappointed.
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Your first sentence is just downright stupid, I never said that women commit those crimes anyway, can you provide any statistics for your outlandish claims? And if it is happening (regardless of its legal status) why are no men speaking out about it? Why are there no stories whatsoever of this happening, what with internet platforms allowing people all over the globe to tell their story? Hypothetically it exists. But you have provided no evidence, so I'm inclined to disbelieve you.
    Hypothetically? You can't be serious. I could find more than three stories of women committing bestiality.

    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Again, can you quote statistics of how many women actually use these drugs? Of course men can be drugged by women, but is it actually a common occurrence? Is it as common as male-on-female or male-on-male drink spiking? Where is your evidence for your claims?
    How on earth am I meant to know that? There isn't even statistics on how many men use them drugs. The evidence is clearly below.

    (Original post by edithwashere)
    I can't trust you if you expect me to believe outlandish claims with no source of evidence ever being mentioned except your own opinions.
    Okay, I'm going to get the source for you okay if you can't trust a government report on the numbers, then there's absolutely nothing you'd believe.

    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Well you don't talk about it much, whereas male custody rights, male circumcision, forced envelopment and anything else where you can blame women, you seem to talk about all the time. I've seen you on threads for months now going on about these things, but you certainly don't make anywhere near as much noise for women's rights as you do for men's rights. Since you've accused me of doing the opposite in the past, yeah, I'm going to draw the example to you. It's hypocritical and if you really expect anybody to accept your argument when you keep sidestepping showing evidence for your claims, then you're going to be sorely disappointed.
    I never said I didn't though, I actually care about them issues just as much as these ones.

    All of them issues are to do with the legal system, I aggreed that women in clothing shouldn't be judged, but women have protection under rape in the uk, men don't have protection from forced envelopment under law, it's the same with circumcision, and family courts.

    Although unlike the uk getting drugged and being unconscious and being drunk to point where you cannot consent counts as rape too...
    Let's take a look shall we?

    http://www.cdc.gov/violencepreventio...port2010-a.pdf

    And I quote " (p18: rape lifetime: 22,000,000 last year: 1,300,0000); (p19: forced envelopment lifetime: 5,500,000 last year: 1,300,000)" not exactly a rare occurrence is it?

    If you don't believe this I don't know what you're going to believe.

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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Ugh, people like you make me feel ill. Read my previous post, you know nothing about feminists or feminism. http://www.thestudentroom.co.uk/show...0&postcount=79
    What's interesting is in fact not my ignorance with regards to feminism and the almighty Patriarchy, but yours.
    That fact that you believe it fights for equality and not female superiority shows your ignorance.
    I'm an intelligent guy, how do you think I've come to hate feminism?
    Do you think that I seen one example of feminism mistreating men and instantly presume it was all about that?
    Or do you think I've thoroughly done my research for years now, eventually concluding (contrary to my initial beliefs) that I despise the societal venom that is feminism?
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    (Original post by Ronove)
    Punishments for rape are high because it is a very specific definition. Punishments for sexual assault vary depending on the severity of the assault.
    It can't match the rape punishment though.

    The maximum punishment for sexual assault is ten years. Maximum sentence for rape is life.
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    No, I'm very concerned about the pay gap, and women in politics (issues that need to be dealing with), but I'm also concerned about male issues. Do you think I like that women are underrepresented in high calibre positions? I'm also concerned about women getting judged for rape in revealing clothing, but I also realize that sexism can (and definitely does) go both ways.
    This. I agree totally.

    I also think it's unfair that there are all sorts of women's health initiatives, women's rape centres, and the like... but no equivalents for men.

    It's as if prostate cancer and the massive, disproportionate suicide rate amongst young men is no big issue
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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    are you suggesting that there are women out there forcing men into sex, and none of those men are doing anything about it?
    Is it not possible they're put off reporting such offences by the disdain and disbelief you yourself display?

    a vast number of men (not all) rape
    So generous of you to concede that not all men are rapists.

    By the way, is .0003% of men a "vast number"?
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    This. I agree totally.

    I also think it's unfair that there are all sorts of women's health initiatives, women's rape centres, and the like... but no equivalents for men.

    It's as if prostate cancer and the massive, disproportionate suicide rate amongst young men is no big issue
    You sir seem to understand where I'm coming from. One thing I've never understood though is why are suicide rates disproportionately high in men?

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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Is it not possible they're put off reporting such offences by the disdain and disbelief you yourself display?
    Could you imagine reporting to the police a woman sexually assaults you? They'd probably think it's a prank call.

    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    So generous of you to concede that not all men are rapists.

    By the way, is .0003% of men a "vast number"?
    Apparently it is, this is why I dislike feminism, it's not egalitarian, and it stereotypes men as sex pests.

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    (Original post by edithwashere)
    Well you don't talk about it much, whereas male custody rights, male circumcision, forced envelopment and anything else where you can blame women, you seem to talk about all the time.
    What he appears to be saying is that it's worthy of examining men's issues and boys issues on the same basis as women's issues.

    That it's worthy of examining why young men kill themselves in such vast numbers... why men die much earlier than women... why men are condemned to do the most difficult, dangerous and awful jobs in society.

    Or would you disagree?
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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    Could you imagine reporting to the police a woman sexually assaults you? They'd probably think it's a prank call.
    Totally. And it's certainly not helped by the feminist rhetoric that all men are rapists (at least, in a collective sense).

    Apparently it is, this is why I dislike feminism, it's not egalitarian, and it stereotypes men as sex pests.
    I agree. From what I can see, neither of us are denying that women have faced historical discrimination, but that equally, so have the vast majority of men if they weren't an aristocrat.

    Also, it's highly insulting that many feminists deny there are any legitimate men's issues, as if it's not a tragedy that masses of teenage boys and young men kill themselves for reasons we don't understand and in which feminists seem to have no interest.

    http://news.sky.com/story/1068998/hu...ide-rate-in-uk

    Suicide is now the biggest killer of young men across the UK, a charity has warned.
    6,000 suicides in 2011. 4,500 male suicides in 2011.
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    (Original post by MostUncivilised)
    Totally. And it's certainly not helped by the feminist rhetoric that all men are rapists (at least, in a collective sense).



    I agree. From what I can see, neither of us are denying that women have faced historical discrimination, but that equally, so have the vast majority of men if they weren't an aristocrat.

    Also, it's highly insulting that many feminists deny there are any legitimate men's issues, as if it's not a tragedy that masses of teenage boys and young men kill themselves for reasons we don't understand and in which feminists seem to have no interest.

    I honestly believe its sexual assault/ domestic abuse and divorce, women are taken much more seriously about sexual and intimate partners violence than men are, you're definitely a lot more intelligent than I am though, I've got to hand to you, you definitely know your stuff about these issues.

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    (Original post by jreid1994)
    I honestly believe its sexual assault/ domestic abuse and divorce, women are taken much more seriously about sexual and intimate partners violence than men are, you're definitely a lot more intelligent than I am though, I've got to hand to you, you definitely know your stuff about these issues.
    I'd definitely reject that I'm a lot more intelligent, perhaps just a little older and a little more experienced (I'm in my mid-20s, I've come to Britain from another country, I was in the Australian Army Reserves for four years... I hasten to add, I am a student... I'm doing a PT law degree over here).

    It's a difficult issue because gender debates naturally engage my lefty political instincts... at the same time, I've known two guys to have killed themselves. One was a guy I went to school with who killed himself at age 17 because of his sexuality, the other when I was in the Reserves when his wife left him and he was only 20. Both killed themselves, I suspect, because of their conception of how they should have been as men.

    In relation to domestic assault, I do think it's important to recognise that 40% of domestic violence victims are men. Because of the current gender "settlement", they often don't feel like they're able to report it or try to end it for fear of being labelled as being something less than a man, which is utterly fallacious and incredibly unfair.

    I feel strongly that women are not entirely accorded their due in society in a way that's disproportionate, but I emphatically reject the suggestion that "it's a man's world". You only have to look at the suicide rate to put that urban legend to bed.
 
 
 
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