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What is you're view on the celebrations of Margaret thatcher's death? Watch

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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    This is all wishful thinking.



    You're the one trying to make out that all those Communist / Socialist failed states weren't really Communist at all so I have to laugh at how you are claiming *I* am the one redefining Communism.

    It was the ones who defined Communism at the beginning with who started all this off in the very country who you are trying to argue wasn't really Communist in the first place, and it was somehow corrupted.

    Wow, big surprise that some people wanted to be better than others in a society where everyone was supposed to be equal when they saw that actually, they weren't equal at all.

    They tried it, and failed, and do you know why? Because humans like owning stuff. They like working to improve themselves, not for the good of society, but for the good of themselves and their families. Combine this and Communism and you end up with an elite walking on top of the workers, all of whom will be poor.

    Socialists like yourself view successful people's achievements with jealousy, and as something that has cost other citizens' their prosperity. But when you look around at high achievers in your own circles, how many times is that truly the case?

    In my experience, these people have usually worked very hard, investing years of their lives, and often, jeopardised their immediate financial security for years on end, as they’ve gradually built a career, or whatever they’ve focused their efforts on.

    Entrepreneurs aren’t convenient to a system where no one is supposed to dream bigger or have a better life than anyone else. Nor is anyone else who is more ambitious than average, works harder or just happens to be luckier.

    That's the thing, Socialism and Communism don't work to improve people, it works to keep them all the same. So you are left with the lowest common denominator. It doesn't work, primarily because it's beneficiaries don't. What Socialist proponents fail to realise is you always end up spending other people's money to pay for it.

    I await your inevitable reply which will ignore everything I have just said and continue to claim that every single time in human history that Communism has tried to raise its head, it's not *real* Communism, so why don't we just give it a try again - this time it might work. :confused:
    Sigh.


    You still haven't justified your view that the USSR was actually communist.

    This is literally the only thing I've asked you to do.
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    (Original post by NadezhdaK)
    "Wishful thinking" is the only way to progress. That's what I got from history, anyway. Everything, from American Civil Rights, to medical progress, has always been dismissed by some as "too good to be true", or perhaps more accurately, to ever work. And yet, to a large degree, it has.
    On the other hand, Communism has no history at all, does it?
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    I think she deserves a semi public funeral but £10mil is BS !

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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    On the other hand, Communism has no history at all, does it?
    A varied history and present. But what I was saying, was not pushing for forced, immediate Communism, but suggesting it would be a better use of our time at present to discuss the flaws our current system and ways to resolve them, whilst perhaps keeping in a mind an image of something to work towards.
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    Shouldn't be laughing at someone's death.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Sigh.

    You still haven't justified your view that the USSR was actually communist.

    This is literally the only thing I've asked you to do.
    No, the USSR wasn't anything like the wishful thinking utopian ideal that you describe. But that is not the point. The point is, whether they tried to be Communist or not, and failed at it miserably.

    And now we are going round in circles.

    Are you going to deny that the USSR and all the rest *tried* to be Communist?
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    Try being from a mining town in the north.
    People are burning coffins and giving free drinks in pubs! .. I think celebrating death is wrong, however I think that my hometown would be better off if she had never existed.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    No, the USSR wasn't anything like the utopian ideal that you describe. But that is not the point.
    I disagree. I think it's exactly the point.

    Are you going to deny that the USSR tried to be Communist?
    I'm sure Lenin had every intention of creating a communist country. Stalin was obviously a paranoid, authoritarian despot who had no interest in giving power back to the people. Gorbachev obviously had no intention of bringing about communism.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I disagree. I think it's exactly the point.
    Ummm...

    If the rationale is that Communism is so great but gets a bad press because it hasn't really been tried properly, so why don't we give it a try, the point is not whether a failed state has been truly Communist, but whether they tried to be or not.

    No state can be truly communist according to your idealistic definition, for the reasons why I already stated, primarily because everyone is forced to be equal in society when they are really not. It is human nature to want to own stuff, and recognise why/how/when/where and in what way they are better than others, have more ambition, who work harder, are luckier or any other numerous ways that set one person apart from the other.

    You keep hammering on about the fact that the USSR wasn't truly Communist, but what is conspicuous is that you haven't actually tried to tell me that I'm wrong, and deny human nature.

    And you won't, because all attempts at Communism have failed wherever it has been tried. Evidence? The lack of successful Communist states today.

    After all, if I'm wrong, you'll be able to point to one, won't you?
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Ummm...

    If the rationale is that Communism is so great but gets a bad press because it hasn't really been tried properly, so why don't we give it a try, the point is not whether a failed state has been truly Communist, but whether they tried to be or not.

    No state can be truly communist according to your idealistic definition, for the reasons why I already stated, primarily because everyone is forced to be equal in society when they are really not. It is human nature to want to own stuff, and recognise why/how/when/where and in what way they are better than others, have more ambition, who work harder, are luckier or any other numerous ways that set one person apart from the other.

    You keep hammering on about the fact that the USSR wasn't truly Communist, but what is conspicuous is that you haven't actually tried to tell me that I'm wrong, and deny human nature.

    And you won't, because all attempts at Communism have failed wherever it has been tried. Evidence? The lack of successful Communist states today.

    After all, if I'm wrong, you'll be able to point to one, won't you?
    Yawn. You are making all kinds of assumptions about my political beliefs when all I ever said was that USSR wasn't communist. Which it wasn't. And critiquing communism in terms of 'hurr durr USSR' is ahistorical and reductive to the point of... well.. being really, really stupid.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Yawn. You are making all kinds of assumptions about my political beliefs when all I ever said was that USSR wasn't communist. Which it wasn't. And critiquing communism in terms of 'hurr durr USSR' is ahistorical and reductive to the point of... well.. being really, really stupid.
    Is that any different to 'No, I can't point to any successful Communist states'?
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    Yawn. You are making all kinds of assumptions about my political beliefs when all I ever said was that USSR wasn't communist. Which it wasn't. And critiquing communism in terms of 'hurr durr USSR' is ahistorical and reductive to the point of... well.. being really, really stupid.
    I tried having an intellectual argument with him, so i wouldn't bother if I were you, he never develops anything of his own.
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    I'm from Liverpool, so as you can imagine I'm not her biggest fan. I might not share the same opinion of her as some people on here but I do think "ding dong the witch is dead" being #1 is a bit harsh and I would not choose to celebrate her death purely because at the end of the day - She's someones Mum/Nan/Sister/Friend and its not very nice.

    But I'm not going to say I'm devastated or she's a great loss to me.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    Is that any different to 'No, I can't point to any successful Communist states'?
    I can't point to any failed communist states, either. Because a communist state has never existed and, to be pedantic, will never exist because it's an oxymoron anyway. Of course we can all point to states that have failed to achieve communism, but there are so many conflicting views on how communism should come about I don't see that as much of a problem for the ideology.
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    (Original post by conorm11)
    I tried having an intellectual argument with him, so i wouldn't bother if I were you, he never develops anything of his own.
    An intellectual argument, or indeed any form of argument necessitates at least some form of discussion between the two parties.

    Perhaps you point me to the thread and post(s) where such an interaction took place, for example where you replied to me or quoted me?

    If that counts as 'I tried having an intellectual argument' then your definition of 'trying' and 'argument' (or indeed intellectual) is different to everyone elses.
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    I come from Wales and not quite the Valleys and my family and myself included as for much of Wales hated both her and her policies and i have seen first hand the devastation she caused to communities and how even now they are still recovering. Now she is not wholly to blame successive governments have failed to to turnaround much of what she has done in these areas and in some way are to blame also. Also i can see the sense in what she was doing i just don't agree in the way she did it she could be bloody minded and destructive in her quest to do what she thought was the right. But even though i disagree with her policies and her whole ideology i think it's distasteful and also these people who hate her for being so bad a person they are showing themselves to be no better than her. For me it's a case of shes dead she did what she did and nobody can change that if you feel happy she's dead Celebrate in your own way. also most tof the protestors are probably too young or have little idea of why they are protesting and doing it jsut for the sake of it.
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    (Original post by Captain Haddock)
    I can't point to any failed communist states, either. Because a communist state has never existed and, to be pedantic, will never exist because it's an oxymoron anyway. Of course we can all point to states that have failed to achieve communism, but there are so many conflicting views on how communism should come about I don't see that as much of a problem for the ideology.
    What most Socialists or Communists really mean when they say the USSR wasn't actually Socialist or Communist is that it wasn't the kind of Socialism or Communism they support.

    As far as the USSR being a country of Communists, run by the Communist Party, it most certainly was. If you ask such a Communist, then they most certainly will tell you that the USSR was a Communist country. They'll blame external meddling, anarchists, or some other political faction for its downfall.

    Firstly there's your (ideal) Communist ideology which can never happen in reality for the millionth time because it is representative of a whole lot of contradictory philosophies, all of which advocate the eventual or immediate distribution of things by some interpretation of, "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

    Then there's Communism practised in reality, which is the philosophy and actions of the Communist Party and/or Communist countries.

    Were international Communists (supporting ideal Communism) of the 1920s and 1930s rabidly denouncing Lenin and Stalin over failure to introduce workers' managment or were they busy supporting the hell out of the Soviet Union?

    Sure Communists criticise it today, after the USSR had shown itself as a failure, if only to try to distance themselves from it, but at the time? Of course not.
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    (Original post by cambio wechsel)
    I think she was appalling, but I am not celebrating her death.

    Those who are might reflect on a remembrance offered by Tony Benn in the papers this week: he recalls meeting Thatcher at the memorial service for (proper left winger) Eric Heffer. She perhaps wasn't invited and certainly wouldn't have been made especially welcome in the company that gathering would have attracted. Benn went to thank her for coming and she immediately collapsed into sobbing.

    She could weep, then, for someone whose views were diametrically opposed to hers. We should try to be something like as good here.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/i...SRCH#tony-benn

    exactly!
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    She screwed my dad's life up when he was on his way to a good, well payed life. My family are now living on less than £10000 a year and both my parent work. I HATE HER.
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    (Original post by marcusfox)
    An intellectual argument, or indeed any form of argument necessitates at least some form of discussion between the two parties.

    Perhaps you point me to the thread and post(s) where such an interaction took place, for example where you replied to me or quoted me?

    If that counts as 'I tried having an intellectual argument' then your definition of 'trying' and 'argument' (or indeed intellectual) is different to everyone elses.
    Oops, simple case of mistaken identity. I honestly thought you were a guy who i had an argument with on a different thread. SORRY!
 
 
 
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