Why are creative degrees less respected? Watch

Felix Felicis
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#121
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#121
(Original post by Book_Lover_23)
I don't understand why people can't just let other people have their own opinion. I have mine, others have theirs. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong because at the end of the day, everybody is different and everybody thinks differently.


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What do you mean? :confused: If you're going to post your view on a debate subforum, then you should be prepared to have it scrutinised.
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Plantagenet Crown
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#122
(Original post by Book_Lover_23)
I don't understand why people can't just let other people have their own opinion. I have mine, others have theirs. It doesn't matter who's right or wrong because at the end of the day, everybody is different and everybody thinks differently.


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Of course you're allowed to have your opinion, but the way you have posted about science and it not requiring talent has been as if it's a universal fact, which it isn't.

In any case, what is wrong with accepting that both mathematical and artistic disciplines require talent?
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username207685
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Can't help but imagine all these anti-arts students throwing down a book after reading it or storming out of the cinema while complaining about what a worthless contribution to society that was.

Also, the majority of you will end up in pretty much the same faceless class of graduate schemes that arts students will and contribute the same level of meaninglessness to society before you get a pension and die. Few people end up working in the field they studied at uni. You're an undergraduate learning a textbook version of science/business/engineering/law/whatever for three-ish years before being handed a piece of paper - you're not Newton. You don't get contribution-by-association. Go and make something of yourself before you start looking down on people because they were hungover in a different kind of lecture to you.
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Verana
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(Original post by Occams Chainsaw)
Following on from a thread I saw from a couple of month ago I wondered why we have this divide where subjects like art, music and creative writing are seen to be less respected.

I enjoy delving in these areas in my spare time and I am more impressed with somebody's ability to create a striking piece of art or compose an evocative piece or music or write something that makes me laugh than their knowledge of the 16th century.

I understand that this respect is probably more related to academic rigor than how 'impressive' the things you can do after studying a subject are but in the only example of a degree that is both creative and respected that I can think of - Architecture - I don't see what makes it different to the other arts? Is it merely the fact that it's a professional degree? Are there any other degrees that you consider to be academic yet creative?
Because they(the students produced) create less 'utility' to society and thus have less resources allocated to them, wealth and power = presitge, thus they have less prestige as the students are less wealthy/powerful after completing them.
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Plantagenet Crown
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(Original post by betaglucowhat)
Can't help but imagine all these anti-arts students throwing down a book after reading it or storming out of the cinema while complaining about what a worthless contribution to society that was.

Also, the majority of you will end up in pretty much the same faceless class of graduate schemes that arts students will and contribute the same level of meaninglessness to society before you get a pension and die. Few people end up working in the field they studied at uni. You're an undergraduate learning a textbook version of science/business/engineering/law/whatever for three-ish years before being handed a piece of paper - you're not Newton. You don't get contribution-by-association. Go and make something of yourself before you start looking down on people because they were hungover in a different kind of lecture to you.
I don't know who that was aimed at, but in my case I don't look down on art subjects at all. I was just pointing out that saying one discipline requires innate talent and another does not is false.
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username207685
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(Original post by Plantagenet Crown)
I don't know who that was aimed at, but in my case I don't look down on art subjects at all. I was just pointing out that saying one discipline requires innate talent and another does not is false.
No, you seem cool. It was more for people making comments like "Well, arts don't contribute much to human progression" on the first page.
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laurenatlantic
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I do agree with what people are saying here, that Maths and Science is more important than Art, however those people who don't do very well academically at exams are usually better at Art, it's an outlet and it's great we have that, Art evolves and grows with time just like science does, therefore Art is beneficial even if it's not contributing in a way like maths and science does, to me anyway it's more important than maths and science because of personal reasons and who knows I might even become a teacher and teach future Andreas Gurskys and future David Hockneys?
There's always a purpose for it, the individual measures how important it is to them, but overall maths and science are now needed for survival in this world making it more important than sculpting or painting.
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TheGuy117
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(This is assuming the job doesn't really require any specific degree to be competent at the job)
Because the market says so. Employers have spent years hiring people who have different degrees, come from different universities etc...and in that time they have probably noticed that the average graduate from certain universities preform better than others for them and that the average graduates with certain degrees preform better than others for them. So a quick way for them to sift through CVs is probably to go straight to the graduates with degrees who have previously preformed well for them and graduates from universities who have previously preformed well for them. Sure, some art graduates will actually be more competent than your maths graduate, some graduate from Reading might be more competent that an Oxford graduate...but until they start working there's no real way to tell, so employers just go on how current and past employees have preformed.
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Plantagenet Crown
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(Original post by betaglucowhat)
No, you seem cool. It was more for people making comments like "Well, arts don't contribute much to human progression" on the first page.
Yeah, I don't agree with them either. The arts are extremely important and man started art long before he knew anything about science, cave paintings, rituals and songs being good examples.
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User995789
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Saying humanities and art is easy and can be self taught easily *insert derogatory comment* is Bull****.
Many great mathematicians had really focused on art and had inspiration from it, without art to facilitate them, we wouldn't see the great progressions we see today.

Also Einstein didn't do geography, because he said it was too hard for him. But he gained inspiration from it to create theories.

Ie the humanities facilitate all of these things.

So please clear off if you are a self pompous prick that wants to dumb down these subjects.
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Really_now
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Surely Philosophy is one of the most important things of all to human progression it is the father subject to my own (Linguistics) and to the sciences, physics, chemistry, maths and to many others like psychology but yet you will get a bachelor of arts and people will look down on it.

Isn't a man who studied no sciences at A Level literally shaping your lives today and the future of this country? David Cameron
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Jjj90
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(Original post by laurenatlantic)
I do agree with what people are saying here, that Maths and Science is more important than Art, however those people who don't do very well academically at exams are usually better at Art, it's an outlet and it's great we have that, Art evolves and grows with time just like science does, therefore Art is beneficial even if it's not contributing in a way like maths and science does, to me anyway it's more important than maths and science because of personal reasons and who knows I might even become a teacher and teach future Andreas Gurskys and future David Hockneys?
There's always a purpose for it, the individual measures how important it is to them, but overall maths and science are now needed for survival in this world making it more important than sculpting or painting.
During the war Churchill was encouraged to slash the culture budget, his response; "then what are we fighting for?".

Without art and music what is the point of science and maths.
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username207685
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(Original post by Jjj90)
During the war Churchill was encouraged to slash the culture budget, his response; "then what are we fighting for?".

Without art and music what is the point of science and maths.
I agree with your point here entirely, but I'm fairly sure Churchill didn't say that - it's just a popular misattribution.
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pickup
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It is true that many artists ( painters, writers etc.) didn't study their art formally at a college or university before creating their masterpieces. ( Though Picasso did go to Art College.) That doesn't mean that they didn't study their subject in depth by reading about it and studying other painters' techniques etc. over years and years.)

As for thinking that the Arts don't contribute to society!

The Arts engage their audience by appealing not only to their intellect, reason as a factual treatise would, but also by getting an emotional response. This is a very powerful thing.

Writers who have known how to do this have arguably had a huge effect on how people think about the world around them and more importantly how they act in the future.

When Dickens did his readings in America he invoked such an immediate emotional response that one factory owner went and gave his employees a holiday for the first time. Until that moment he hadn't realised that they were human beings like him.

After people had read Harriet Beecher Stowe's 'Uncle Tom's Cabin', the case for slavery was dead in the water. Reasoning with people, arguing with people was one thing: bringing people up against the reality of slavery by describing it in a novel in all its horror made people understand it as they had not understood it before.
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Juichiro
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#135
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(Original post by Book_Lover_23)
But if it wasn't taught at uni's then it wouldn't be taught in schools. English teachers have degrees in literature, music teachers have degrees in music, art teachers in art. Isn't it important to have these subjects on offer in schools? If they weren't then many students would never know they had a talent in one of these areas.


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It does not matter whether or not they have a talent in an artsy area. If they don't like painting/writing, the presence or absence of talent is irrelevant.
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Juichiro
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(Original post by Book_Lover_23)
How is it a waste of money? The majority of musicians and artists earn FAR more than physicists or such like. They're earning millions and physicists are on what, £30k a year? Who picked the better degree? Yes there's an element of luck in there, as there's no guarantee they'll become a successful artist. But if they want to try and devote their life to their hobby, why shouldn't they pursue a degree in it?



Yes but you need someone to teach you to ride a bike or drive a car, just like you'd need someone to teach you to play an instrument. And you don't necessarily need taught the complex content in science subjects - textbooks explain it the same way the teacher does.



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Do physicists only earn 30k a year? :eek:

About the bolded bit: when was the last time you opened a science textbook?
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Juichiro
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(Original post by pickup)
It is true that many artists ( painters, writers etc.) didn't study their art formally at a college or university before creating their masterpieces. ( Though Picasso did go to Art College.) That doesn't mean that they didn't study their subject in depth by reading about it and studying other painters' techniques etc. over years and years.)

As for thinking that the Arts don't contribute to society!

The Arts engage their audience by appealing not only to their intellect, reason as a factual treatise would, but also by getting an emotional response. This is a very powerful thing.

Writers who have known how to do this have arguably had a huge effect on how people think about the world around them and more importantly how they act in the future.

When Dickens did his readings in America he invoked such an immediate emotional response that one factory owner went and gave his employees a holiday for the first time. Until that moment he hadn't realised that they were human beings like him.

After people had read Harriet Beecher Stowe's 'Uncle Tom's Cabin', the case for slavery was dead in the water. Reasoning with people, arguing with people was one thing: bringing people up against the reality of slavery by describing it in a novel in all its horror made people understand it as they had not understood it before.
:facepalm:

Are you serious?
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gloriousgloria
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#138
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#138
o wot they got rid of the neg rating....
some of you out der got a lucky escape
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chickenonsteroids
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#139
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#139
It's nearly amusing how much people can claim arts subjects are useless and contribute little to society then read a story, watch a movie and debate about politics. It's almost like displaying a huge sign over your head that says "I'm purposefully ignoring all the non scientific achievements the human race has because science"

Insulting arts then parading the fact you do a science subject is idiotic.
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Noble.
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(Original post by Freier._.lance)
Have you ever heard of a concept of "paint by numbers"? In the same sense, musicians can easily play a beethoven or a mozart piece or learn to paint a masterpiece, by learning the techniques. I'm astonished so many people are so ignorant of how much creativity is required to do mathematics and physics at a high level. Anyone can do anything they wish, but to be great at it, innate will always be required. Any thing that one person "creates" or "discovers" can always be taught to others, but that initial spark of genius comes to few people.
I was about to come and post the same thing. Arguably mathematics is far more creative at the high-level end (seeing as people are wanting to compare it to composing masterpieces it makes no sense to talk about the average mathematics) where you're not bound by the English language, or by notes/musical instruments. Anyone with a decent mathematical understanding just has to look at how Andrew Wiles proved Fermat's Last Theorem to really appreciate just how it's no less creative than a Mozart symphony or a Van Gogh painting.
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