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    (Original post by tazarooni89)
    Personally, I would say that abortion should be illegal, unless there are exceptional circumstances (e.g. pregnancy would seriously endanger the mother's life).


    There are many examples of killing which we all pretty much agree, should be illegal. For example: Killing a newborn baby because the parents don't want to look after it, killing someone who is unconscious because they won't even know or care that their life is ending, killing someone who has no friends or family because nobody will miss them...

    If we take all that as given, then I don't see how it's possible to build a consistent case for abortion to be legal. All justifications that I've ever seen for abortion (e.g. if isn't conscious, it doesn't care whether it lives or dies, so it's fine to kill it), if applied as a general principle, will end up conflicting with one of our original agreed premises. For example, the one I mentioned in brackets just now would suggest that killing someone who is unconscious should be legal, which is absurd.


    Whilst I agree that people should have the right to choose whether or not to carry a child, the strength of this argument is heavily reduced by the fact that it's quite easy to reduce, or completely avoid the risk of pregnancy by using contraception or abstaining from sex. In the vast majority of cases (i.e. other than rape), if you're pregnant (or have got someone else pregnant), it's entirely your own doing in the first place.
    Condoms have something like a 90% effectiveness rate. Certainly less that 100%. So 1/10 times, there will be some sort of failure. And certain birth control pills have to be taken at the exact same time every day. Contraception is not foolproof. And it's a pretty normal desire to want to have sex, you can't just say 'well don't do it then'.

    It doesn't matter if it's the person's own doing. If they don't want a child they should not be forced to have it. You could take every reasonable precaution in the world (aside from abstaining from sex) and still end up pregnant. Those people obviously didn't want a child, should they be forced to have one?

    If you force people to have pregnancies they don't want, you're basically punishing them for daring to have sex. And that's not okay.

    (Original post by Messalina)
    Exactly. I'm not pro-abortion, I'm pro-CHOICE. Let every woman decide what is best for her, and don't judge her for it regardless of what she chooses. It's so damn simple. I wish the rest of the world would see it. It's the judgement and removal of choice that causes all the harm, not the act itself.
    I feel like some people confuse being pro-choice with being 'pro-abortion'. Being pro-choice implies you want the CHOICE to be there. People assuming it's 'pro-abortion' implies that we actively go around saying 'hey, you! have an abortion! get rid of ALL THE PREGNANCIES'.
    It's stupid.
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    No. Absolutely not.

    A woman's right to autonomy over her own body is paramount.
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    (Original post by brownbearxo)
    Then don't abort your own child.

    Mind your business, what other women choose to do with their body is of no concern to you or the law.
    Lets just turn a blind eye when someone gets murdered or raped. Mind our own business. Good thinking.
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    No.
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    (Original post by Rosie786)
    I know its legalised in UK under the 1967 act but should it be repealed?

    There are so many couples who are childless as the women cannot conceive or gay people who would love to adopt children. Isn't it better to give birth to the child and then put him/her up for adoption if the child is unwanted?
    Not always.

    Not every woman wants to go through pregnancy. Plus pregnancy can brong about all sorts of complications.

    I know there are rape cases but putting them aside. Now a day i have seen women just aborting the child because they don't want to take care of them?
    Isn't that a good thing?

    There are too many unwanted kids in the world who are not cared for and not having their needs met.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    Lets just turn a blind eye when someone gets murdered or raped. Mind our own business. Good thinking.
    Saying that women should have freedom over their bodies isn't the same as saying 'we should ignore it if someone gets raped'.

    If you had a tapeworm in your gut, wouldn't you want it removed? To some people, a fetus is the exact same way. It's leeching on your nutrients and causing you discomfort, so you want it removed.
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    (Original post by TheWorldEndsWithMe)
    Saying that women should have freedom over their bodies isn't the same as saying 'we should ignore it if someone gets raped'.

    If you had a tapeworm in your gut, wouldn't you want it removed? To some people, a fetus is the exact same way. It's leeching on your nutrients and causing you discomfort, so you want it removed.
    To some people murder is acceptable because they're psychopaths. That doesn't make it okay lmao.
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    (Original post by Rosie786)
    Yes that's why i said there have been a lot of rape cases and i said let's put that aside.

    Also you said its the women's body and they should have right over their own body. But also once they get pregnant. There's another life inside them as well. Don't they have the right over their body as well?

    P.S. thanks for conducting the debate in a good manner
    They have no legal right. You are implying they should have an ethical right. But in my opinion someone can only have a right if they are fully aware of what right they are claiming. Before that, the mother has responsibility over the foetus and decides the best situation.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    To some people murder is acceptable because they're psychopaths. That doesn't make it okay lmao.
    There's a difference between ridding a body of a bundle of cells that can't survive on it's own and going out and killing someone for the hell of it.
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    (Original post by TheWorldEndsWithMe)
    There's a difference between ridding a body of a bundle of cells that can't survive on it's own and going out and killing someone for the hell of it.
    pro-choice people just have a psychotic view on the subject. So don't feel any remorse. Theres an overlap between the cut off time for abortions (by law) and the point where the baby can be born prematurely and survive.

    Apparently while it's still in the womb it's a parasite but as soon as it leaves it's a baby.
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    (Original post by TheWorldEndsWithMe)
    Condoms have something like a 90% effectiveness rate. Certainly less that 100%. So 1/10 times, there will be some sort of failure. And certain birth control pills have to be taken at the exact same time every day. Contraception is not foolproof. And it's a pretty normal desire to want to have sex, you can't just say 'well don't do it then'.

    It doesn't matter if it's the person's own doing. If they don't want a child they should not be forced to have it. You could take every reasonable precaution in the world (aside from abstaining from sex) and still end up pregnant. Those people obviously didn't want a child, should they be forced to have one?

    If you force people to have pregnancies they don't want, you're basically punishing them for daring to have sex. And that's not okay.
    I agree that ideally, people shouldn't have to give birth to a child if they don't want to. But the argument doesn't stop there. It is competing with the other side of the story, regarding whether or not preservation of the foetus' life ought to be upheld by law (which I discussed in the first few paragraphs of my post).

    If we assumed that a foetus' life deserved no protection under the law, then I would agree with your line of reasoning, and that's all there would be to the argument.

    However, that is not all there is to the argument. In my opinion, it is not well established that a foetus' life deserves no protection under the law, and so what you have described above is just one side of the argument. It's true that ideally, people shouldn't be in that situation, of being pregnant with an unwanted child. But this side of the argument is weakened compared to the other, by the fact that they put themselves in that situation in the first place by knowingly taking a risk.

    (Original post by TheWorldEndsWithMe)
    There's a difference between ridding a body of a bundle of cells that can't survive on it's own and going out and killing someone for the hell of it.
    An unconscious man on a life support machine is also "a bundle of cells that can't survive on its own", isn't it?
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    pro-choice people just have a psychotic view on the subject. So don't feel any remorse. Theres an overlap between the cut off time for abortions (by law) and the point where the baby can be born prematurely and survive.

    Apparently while it's still in the womb it's a parasite but as soon as it leaves it's a baby.
    the people using the parasite-argument are being silly

    Ultimately, the mother is more important than the foetus; I don't agree with people having abortions unless the pregnancy is because of rape, the mother is in danger, or there is a significant chance the baby will be born with a severe genetic defect, but that's my opinion. They can do what they want with their own bodies.

    I seriously don't get people who equate murder with abortion.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    pro-choice people just have a psychotic view on the subject. So don't feel any remorse. Theres an overlap between the cut off time for abortions (by law) and the point where the baby can be born prematurely and survive.

    Apparently while it's still in the womb it's a parasite but as soon as it leaves it's a baby.
    Er, no. If I got pregnant I highly doubt I'd be able to go through with an abortion. But that's ME and my own thoughts and feelings on the subject. I would feel remorse if I aborted. But the choice should be there for women who need it.

    My feeling on the matter is that if it can survive outside the womb with minimal intervention, then it's past the stage where abortion is okay.

    You seem to have some misguided notion that people who are pro choice want to kill all the fetuses regardless of the stage of the pregnancy or want to encourage mass abortion. We don't. We want people to have the option to rid themselves of a burden, should they require it.

    Why do you want to punish people for having sex?
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    the people calling it a parasite are going over the top

    Ultimately, the mother is more important than the foetus; I don't agree with people having abortions unless the pregnancy is because of rape, the mother is in danger, or there is a significant chance the baby will be born with a severe genetic defect, but that's my opinion. They can do what they want with their own bodies.

    I seriously don't get people who equate murder with abortion.
    Lets say someone waited the full amount of time before they decided to get an abortion.

    If they gave birth to the baby first and then killed it. Would you call that murder? If not why not? (assuming it could go into the special care unit and live a normal life afterwards)
    And why would it be different if it was still inside the womb when they killed it?

    (Original post by TheWorldEndsWithMe)
    Er, no. If I got pregnant I highly doubt I'd be able to go through with an abortion. But that's ME and my own thoughts and feelings on the subject. I would feel remorse if I aborted. But the choice should be there for women who need it.

    My feeling on the matter is that if it can survive outside the womb with minimal intervention, then it's past the stage where abortion is okay.

    You seem to have some misguided notion that people who are pro choice want to kill all the fetuses regardless of the stage of the pregnancy or want to encourage mass abortion. We don't. We want people to have the option to rid themselves of a burden, should they require it.

    Why do you want to punish people for having sex?
    Why do you think it's a punishment? It's just protecting the kid.

    Imo you shouldn't be able to kill it for no good reason like "#yolo. not my life" Life of the mother should be more important. Not the convenience of the mother.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    Lets say someone waited the full amount of time before they decided to get an abortion.

    If they gave birth to the baby first and then killed it. Would you call that murder? If not why not? (assuming it could go into the special care unit and live a normal life afterwards)
    And why would it be different if it was still inside the womb when they killed it?



    Why do you think it's a punishment? It's just protecting the kid.

    Imo you shouldn't be able to kill it for no good reason like "#yolo. not my life" Life of the mother should be more important. Not the convenience of the mother.
    if you do it early enough, the child literally doesn't have a brain or a heart. So how can it truly be called a 'child'? It's a punishment because you're forcing people to do things they don't want to because of something they did. Sounds like punishment to me.

    Let me just ask. Say you go to a party, hook up with some girl and then go off and have sex. You've no intention of ever seeing her again. She gets pregnant and wants to abort. Are you seriously going to try and stop her getting an abortion? Force her to carry around a fetus that she never even wanted?
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    Lets say someone waited the full amount of time before they decided to get an abortion.

    If they gave birth to the baby first and then killed it. Would you call that murder? If not why not? (assuming it could go into the special care unit and live a normal life afterwards)
    And why would it be different if it was still inside the womb when they killed it?
    Killing a person intentionally is murder, so yes, that would be murder

    It would not be a case of killing the baby 1 day before it was due; that's illegal. Abortion (in the UK at least) can only take place up to 24 weeks.

    When do you think a baby becomes a person? At the moment of conception?
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    (Original post by StrangeBanana)
    Killing a person intentionally is murder, so yes, that would be murder

    It would not be a case of killing the baby 1 day before it was due; that's illegal. Abortion (in the UK at least) can only take place up to 24 weeks.

    When do you think a baby becomes a person? At the moment of conception?
    that is a realistic situation since premature births have happened at 23 weeks.

    I think they become a person once their brains have developed since they can start thinking on their own at that point. Theres already been research showing babies have dreams while they're in the womb.

    Can't remember the point at which their brains have developed but it's well before 24 weeks.

    I don't really mind as much when abortions are in the first few weeks and it's still pretty much just stem cells. But I still think people who do it without a good reason apart from it being convenient for them are ****ty people with little respect for others and life in general.
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    (Original post by TheWorldEndsWithMe)
    if you do it early enough, the child literally doesn't have a brain or a heart. So how can it truly be called a 'child'? It's a punishment because you're forcing people to do things they don't want to because of something they did. Sounds like punishment to me.

    Let me just ask. Say you go to a party, hook up with some girl and then go off and have sex. You've no intention of ever seeing her again. She gets pregnant and wants to abort. Are you seriously going to try and stop her getting an abortion? Force her to carry around a fetus that she never even wanted?
    Why punish the child by taking away it's life? I very much support the idea of people being in control of their own lives and whether they want to live or not.

    I would never be in that situation though because I don't sleep around. And I don't start relationships unless I can see it working in the long run either. So if I ever got a girl pregnant it wouldn't be a big deal. And ofc I'd be pissed off if the girl decided to kill my child tbh.
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    (Original post by ChickenMadness)
    that is a realistic situation since premature births have happened at 23 weeks.

    I think they become a person once their brains have developed since they can start thinking on their own at that point. Theres already been research showing babies have dreams while they're in the womb.

    Can't remember the point at which their brains have developed but it's well before 24 weeks.

    I don't really mind as much when abortions are in the first few weeks and it's still pretty much just stem cells. But I still think people who do it without a good reason apart from it being convenient for them are ****ty people with little respect for others and life in general.
    Yo, I'm a ****ty person with little respect for others and life in general!

    I'm not though, you just have a horrid outlook on life. Mind your own business and don't judge other people for their actions when you don't know squat about them. P.S. if it's convenient, I'll have another abortion. Just for you
 
 
 
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