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Bakery refuses to make "gay cake"; faces legal action Watch

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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?

    And no one is forcing their views onto them they have been asked to provide a cake with a message the point here is that the message is irrelevant as it breaks no laws

    they have decied they do not like the message as it is 'pro gay' and refused the cake

    but as I have asked Would you accept the argument if they refused to 'promote' a 'black is proud' cake?
    Really interesting argument.

    What are you views if a Muslim asked for a cake reading "Sharia law for the UK" or "Stone adulterous women to death" or a Christian asked for a cake reading "God hates ****" or a BNP member asked for a cake reading "You can't be black and British"?
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    in reality you'd be sending millions upon millions of thought criminals to gulags for re-education because they don't share your worldview, after first using cases like this as a "chilling effect" to silence people
    Thanks for demonstrating just how nuts you are. People need to realise that.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Section 14

    ', A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.'

    A (anti Pro Gay Message) treats B (Pro Gay Message) less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.'

    Pro Gay Marriage would fall Under the part of E you cut off '(e)religion or belief

    It is not againt the law to have the belief that pro gay marriage is acceptable and that belief is PROTECTED

    also you are confusing respecting an opinion with prevent people from having their own in regards to the sales of goods act and the Equality ACT. You don't have to respect the pro gay marriage stance but you can't prevent others from having it and you can't deny them services because they do.

    Yes I'll look forward to the ruling but I susspect this will be like the B&B case where I was told I was still wrong even though the law supported my stance
    In the B&B case they were refused service for being gay, thats a completely different case. The bakery didn't refuse these customers for being gay, the two customers could have been completely straight for all it mattered, its the political agenda which they refused to serve.

    Like said a company can not be FORCED to promote a political agenda they don't agree with. If that bakery wen't into a store owned by a gay couple and asked for some shirts printed which are anti-gay marriage, its a political message and once again they could refuse to create those shirts legally. If your going to argue that would be because those shirts are offensive, then pro-gay marriage messages are often seen as offensive to Christians, unless your now suggesting we start choosing who can and cant be offended?
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    But it is irrelevant as far as the law is concerned

    The shop owner does not get to pick and choose what he finds acceptable

    and again the law is clear he would not be able to deny a cake for having a political message just because he disagrees with it

    again please read

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/contents

    it will clear up your misunderstanding of the issue
    I agree that this will be a test case, but I'm not convinced you understand the law as it stands. There is a marked difference between refusing to offer someone a service because of their sexuality (which is illegal, and which did not happen) and refusing to promote a political message, whether or not that is related to sexuality. In this case, the shop owner absolutely gets to decide what is and is not acceptable, just as they would with any other political cause.

    They will be found guilty if and only if it can be shown that they discriminated against these customers on the grounds of their sexuality. I don't think they will be able to show this to a reasonable standard, but we will see.
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    (Original post by chazwomaq)
    Really interesting argument.

    What are you views if a Muslim asked for a cake reading "Sharia law for the UK" or "Stone adulterous women to death" or a Christian asked for a cake reading "God hates ****" or a BNP member asked for a cake reading "You can't be black and British"?
    A OK (it's an opinion and it's not against the law)

    B Inciting violence (if it were to say Islam says says yada yada)

    c) OK (I'd be just against someone if they prevented this cake from being made)

    d) OK it's their opinion
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    The message is not offensive (just because it's pro gay does not mean it is offensive) and they were denied it because it was pro gay

    This is against the equality act 2010 section 14

    http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2010/15/section/14

    ', A treats B less favourably than A treats or would treat a person who does not share either of those characteristics.'

    (a)age;

    (b)disability;

    (c)gender reassignment;

    (d)race

    (e)religion or belief;

    (f)sex;

    (g)sexual orientation.
    1) How do you know they denied it because it was pro-gay?

    2) Nothing in s.14 prohibits the bakers' conduct. This is the point I have been making from the outset. The legislation says that you cannot treat a gay person less favourably than you would someone who does not share that characteristic. The conduct in question was nothing to do with any of the customer's characteristics. The bakery did not refuse to serve him because he was gay, they refused to serve him because they did not agree with the message he wanted on the cake. Do you see that difference? It didn't matter whether he was straight, gay or bisexual, because what they took issue with was the cake, not him.

    There is a clear distinction to be drawn between refusing to perform a service in favour of a cause you disagree with and refusing to do something in favour of a particular person because of characteristics which s/he has. You're right that the law seems fairly clear here, but it doesn't apply in the way that you think it does.
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    (Original post by TurboCretin)
    1) How do you know they denied it because it was pro-gay?

    2) Nothing in s.14 prohibits the bakers' conduct. This is the point I have been making from the outset. The legislation says that you cannot treat a gay person less favourably than you would someone who does not share that characteristic. The conduct in question was nothing to do with any of the customer's characteristics. The bakery did not refuse to serve him because he was gay, they refused to serve him because they did not agree with the message he wanted on the cake. Do you see that difference? It didn't matter whether he was straight, gay or bisexual, because what they took issue with was the cake, not him.

    There is a clear distinction to be drawn between refusing to perform a service in favour of a cause you disagree with and refusing to do something in favour of a particular person because of characteristics which s/he has. You're right that the law seems fairly clear here, but it doesn't apply in the way that you think it does.
    Pro Gay Marriage

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

    '"still is defined as being a union between one man and one woman" and said his company was taking "a stand".'

    '"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."'

    as you have said (and I agree) this will be an interesting case but give what I know about how the law works they will lose this one as they will have discriminated against the couple.
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    The bakery was right, they shouldn't have to bake something with a slogan that they do not support. If the gay guy had walked in and asked for a regular cake he would have got it. The fact that the gay men took action against them instead of just going someplace else makes me think that they're scum and the bakery should countersue for hurting the reputation of their business. ********s.
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    At what point do we stop tolerating intolerance in the name of religion? A line needs to be drawn.
    These bakers have the right to refuse. However, if it's on the basis of a sexuality they don't agree with because of their (backward) religious beliefs, that is somewhere close to if not over the line.

    It is discrimination and I think it's about time we stopped candidly accepting religious beliefs as a justification of or cover for backward intolerance.

    I have zero sympathy for these bakery owners.
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    They really should have just taken the easy way out and said that they didn't want to infringe the intellectual property of CTW.
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    I think you should be able to deny service to someone (i.e. you can make the choice to) but it doesn't mean I support it. They can suffer the publicity and loss of profits. But the fact is if you're opening a business and providing a service then you need to be prepared to serve people with lifestyles you don't agree with* as it's professional. Don't provide a service if you're going to let your prejudice cloud it.

    * even though I can't see how someone could "disagree" with homosexuality.
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    (Original post by thunder_chunky)
    At what point do we stop tolerating intolerance in the name of religion? A line needs to be drawn.
    These bakers have the right to refuse, however if it's on the basis of a sexuality they don't agree with because of their (backward) religious beliefs, that is somewhere close to if not over the line

    It is discrimination and I think it's about time we stopped candidly accepting religious beliefs as a justification of or cover for backward intolerance.

    I have zero sympathy for these bakery owners.
    What makes you think your religious doctrine which you preach in this thread should be exempted from "intolerance"? It isn't all that popular, which is why the State is trying to social engineer it.
    I am delighted that the bakers are standing up for their own beliefs in the face of this liberal intolerance of differing opinions.
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    (Original post by Radicalathiest)
    Pro Gay Marriage

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

    '"still is defined as being a union between one man and one woman" and said his company was taking "a stand".'

    '"It certainly was at odds with what the Bible teaches, and on the following Monday we rang the customer to let him know that we couldn't take his order."'

    as you have said (and I agree) this will be an interesting case but give what I know about how the law works they will lose this one as they will have discriminated against the couple.
    I have to admit I don't set great store by your self-proclaimed legal knowledge, and I predict you will end up being wrong.

    As stated before, gay marriage isn't even legal in NI. It would be perverse if it were declared illegal to not support something which is actually itself illegal anyway! Will the government prosecute itself next?
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    (Original post by Ripper-Roo)
    I think you should be able to deny service to someone (i.e. you can make the choice to) but it doesn't mean I support it. They can suffer the publicity and loss of profits. But the fact is if you're opening a business and providing a service then you need to be prepared to serve people with lifestyles you don't agree with* as it's professional. Don't provide a service if you're going to let your prejudice cloud it.

    * even though I can't see how someone could "disagree" with homosexuality.
    I see what you did there. You equated a lack of willingness to promote the political homosexual "marriage" cause with "disagreeing" with homosexuality.
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    I see what you did there. You equated a lack of willingness to promote the political homosexual "marriage" cause with "disagreeing" with homosexuality.
    Erm if you disagree with gay marriage then you have issues with homosexuality... what other reasons are there?

    all it is is allowing gays to marry, how is that controversial?

    religion isn't an excuse to discriminate
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    (Original post by Ripper-Roo)
    Erm if you disagree with gay marriage then you have issues with homosexuality... what other reasons are there?

    all it is is allowing gays to marry, how is that controversial?

    religion isn't an excuse to discriminate
    The concept of homosexual "marriage" was only invented a few years ago, what will it be mandatory to support next, just because the pink lobby demands it, on pains of calling you a homophobe if you don't?
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    (Original post by Rinsed)
    I have to admit I don't set great store by your self-proclaimed legal knowledge, and I predict you will end up being wrong.

    As stated before, gay marriage isn't even legal in NI. It would be perverse if it were declared illegal to not support something which is actually itself illegal anyway! Will the government prosecute itself next?
    We'll have to wait and see:rolleyes: (but I was right for the B&B case so we'll see if this this is 2 for 2)
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    The concept of homosexual "marriage" was only invented a few years ago, what will it be mandatory to support next, just because the pink lobby demands it, on pains of calling you a homophobe if you don't?
    because they're people as well and should have the same right to marry, who are your or any other religious person or someone who disagrees with it to say they can't marry? I can't see any reason why anyone would disagree with homosexual marriage unless they're a homophobe.
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    (Original post by Ripper-Roo)
    because they're people as well and should have the same right to marry, who are your or any other religious person or someone who disagrees with it to say they can't marry? I can't see any reason why anyone would disagree with homosexual marriage unless they're a homophobe.
    They already had the same rights as everyone else. They wanted the right to do something else and call it a "marriage" and imprison people who don't believe their arrangement is a marriage.
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    (Original post by thesabbath)
    They already had the same rights as everyone else. They wanted the right to do something else and call it a "marriage" and imprison people who don't believe their arrangement is a marriage.
    I didn't read the article
 
 
 
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