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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    I just love this type of exchange. Brainwashed people brainwashing themselves further. It's actually quite hilarious.

    Keep it up!
    Thank you, we will.

    In the meantime maybe you can go support some terrorist blowing himself up. That's all you're good for, after all.
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    How do you negotiate with a group like Hamas who are not interested in sober diplomatic talks and instead prefer to keep firing indiscriminate rockets into the Israeli population, and who take cover in hospitals, schools and family homes? You don't negotiate because with Hamas there is no will to negotiate with Israel, who they will always view as the Zionist invaders of an Arab land. It's racial and religious bigotry so there is no political solution. So mighty force must be used in response, to try and bring an end to Hamas in Palestine. Very sadly, Palestinian civilians die. Some say Israeli force is excessive! What would you expect? It is not a measured game of tit for tat. Only extreme measures, if any at all, will stop Hamas. It's a shame the Palestinians themselves won't get rid of Hamas? They must not have the ability and/or inclination to do so.

    Palestine, like most Arab states, do not naturally default towards building a functioning democratic society. There is no western-like inclination to foster egalitarian, free-thinking values, developing a society with a sophisticated social conscience and a people willing to carve out a more suitable social destiny for the future generations of their people. They are sadly followers, easily led by whatever nutcase group who wants to take charge and fill them with anti-Zionist clap-trap to justify their appalling suffering. Sadly their narrow one-sided view perpetuates a Palestinian nightmare of their own making.
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    (Original post by Marco1)
    How do you negotiate with a group like Hamas who are not interested in sober diplomatic talks and instead prefer to keep firing indiscriminate rockets into the Israeli population, and who take cover in hospitals, schools and family homes? You don't negotiate because with Hamas there is no will to negotiate with Israel, who they will always view as the Zionist invaders of an Arab land. It's racial and religious bigotry so there is no political solution. So mighty force must be used in response, to try and bring an end to Hamas in Palestine. Very sadly, Palestinian civilians die. Some say Israeli force is excessive! What would you expect? It is not a measured game of tit for tat. Only extreme measures, if any at all, will stop Hamas. It's a shame the Palestinians themselves won't get rid of Hamas? They must not have the ability and/or inclination to do so.
    Defence of the Israeli Government's hard to justify actions in these conflicts always follows the same generic patterns. I am really yet to see any actual evidence of Hamas as a course of action hiding missiles, weaponry and launching equipment in hospitals, mosques etc. They fire heavy missiles into densely populated residential areas on the basis that a Hamas affiliated individual (who may or may not be at home) lives there with little regard for the homes or people in the near vicinity. What are people expected to do when a Hamas affiliated person moves in next door, move? Oh wait, they can't afford to because Israel suffocates its economy and limits the amount of wealth that gets in. What about Hamas, are you saying that they are expected to live in Hamas only camps away from the people they govern with big signs saying "Hamas Here" to make it convenient for Israel's missiles when Netanyahu suddenly decides that its been a while since the Palestinians have been put in their place? Because I guarantee you that no combatant in the history of combat and conflict has decided that they will go out their way to make it easier for the other side to destroy them.

    And all this nonsense about Israel acting in defence, come off it mate. If you ignore John Kerry and Bibi's rewriting of recent events you will find that the first missiles started flying when Israel decided to blame Hamas for the murder of three Israeli teens without backing up these accusations with evidence and punish them as a result by rounding up Hamas members in the West Bank in violation of the ceasefire agreed at the end of the last round of hostilities which Israel also began by the extra-judicial assassination of a senior Hamas Official.

    Much is made about the racial bigotry of the Arabs and their lack of acceptance of the right of Israel to exist and defend themselves. In the same vein, are Palestinians in the West Bank at liberty to launch missile strikes on Israel due to the appropriation of their lands for Israeli settlements? Do Palestinians have the right to defend themselves as well or is that only reserved for the Israeli's? Doesnt really seem like Israel are doing to well in terms of racial bigotry either then as also evidenced through their treatment of black immigrants in their state as well.

    (Original post by Marco1)
    like most Arab states, do not naturally default towards building a functioning democratic society. There is no western-like inclination to foster egalitarian, free-thinking values, developing a society with a sophisticated social conscience and a people willing to carve out a more suitable social destiny for the future generations of their people. They are sadly followers, easily led by whatever nutcase group who wants to take charge and fill them with anti-Zionist clap-trap to justify their appalling suffering. Sadly their narrow one-sided view perpetuates a Palestinian nightmare of their own making.
    Ahahahaha what if anything do you know about the Arab mentality. You are just talking absolute nonsense, The majority of the authoritarian regimes in the Arab world can trace their beginnings or authoritarian predecessors with the actions of our own governments who, having promised self-determination to the Arab peoples, instead installed political strong man's (sometimes not even native to the territory that they were given) to rule as their own personal fiefdom as long as they adhered to the will of their western masters, even inheriting the repressive colonial security apparatus used to keep out dissent or any talk about democracy. Also, you probably dont have any actual clue through the drivel you talk, but Islam is far more egalitarian in nature than Judaism or Christianity. The rule of the original Rashidun caliphs at the dawn of Islam probably represented one of the most egalitarian societies within the Ummah that can't even be replicated a millennium and a half later in the supposedly equal liberal societies wrecked with inequality and competing classes of wealth, authority and interests.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    I thought you support Hamas. Do you then agree that they're terrorists? If you agree with their terrorist actions, why are you so appalled by what you claim to be terrorist actions of Israel?

    If you state both are terrorists, isn't it a bit hypocritical of you to claim that one is bad but one is good? Or do you just prefer the blow myself up at airports tactic more than the airstrike tactic?
    Attacking something =/= supporter of the opposite viewpoint.

    Yes. Especially since no sovereign state existed there.
    The Sovereign state was the Ottoman Empire?! Are you confused or are you just a hypocrite?

    Clearly you can't take criticism very well. It's not my fault you're incapable of using the written word to get your opinion across efficiently.
    Which makes it even more miraculous that we have managed to hold a discussion for a couple of days...

    I don't understand what that has to do with anything.
    Does Israel listen to Ban Ki Moon and his chaps at the UN?

    A simple 'I don't know, because my Al Jazeera and Al Aqsa friends haven't fed me the bull**** propaganda to answer with yet' would suffice.
    Refuted by my posts in the previous version of this thread where I have expounded upon my views on the creation of the State of Israel.

    The picture you posted with the dead kid and the statement on the picture would be enough.
    If you happened to notice or view the post in context, then you would see that the accompanying explanation of why I posted that picture did not corroborate to the text, but rather to the image portrayed in that image.

    If you desire, I can edit out the text and leave the picture as it was not pertinent and irrelevant to the point I was making. Do you wish me to do this.

    I'm curious, how many photos of bleeding kids did it take you to decide Israel is evil and the only one at fault here?
    How many pictures does it take you to deny that there are kids dying out there because of Israeli weaponry?
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    Thank you, we will.
    Thank you. I look forward to reading some more original material from you guys. You couldn't make this up if you wanted to!

    In the meantime maybe you can go support some terrorist blowing himself up. That's all you're good for, after all.
    Are you projecting? You seem to be projecting...
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    (Original post by castlemadeofsand)
    Defence of the Israeli Government's hard to justify actions in these conflicts always follows the same generic patterns. I am really yet to see any actual evidence of Hamas as a course of action hiding missiles, weaponry and launching equipment in hospitals, mosques etc. They fire heavy missiles into densely populated residential areas on the basis that a Hamas affiliated individual (who may or may not be at home) lives there with little regard for the homes or people in the near vicinity. What are people expected to do when a Hamas affiliated person moves in next door, move? Oh wait, they can't afford to because Israel suffocates its economy and limits the amount of wealth that gets in. What about Hamas, are you saying that they are expected to live in Hamas only camps away from the people they govern with big signs saying "Hamas Here" to make it convenient for Israel's missiles when Netanyahu suddenly decides that its been a while since the Palestinians have been put in their place? Because I guarantee you that no combatant in the history of combat and conflict has decided that they will go out their way to make it easier for the other side to destroy them.

    And all this nonsense about Israel acting in defence, come off it mate. If you ignore John Kerry and Bibi's rewriting of recent events you will find that the first missiles started flying when Israel decided to blame Hamas for the murder of three Israeli teens without backing up these accusations with evidence and punish them as a result by rounding up Hamas members in the West Bank in violation of the ceasefire agreed at the end of the last round of hostilities which Israel also began by the extra-judicial assassination of a senior Hamas Official.

    Much is made about the racial bigotry of the Arabs and their lack of acceptance of the right of Israel to exist and defend themselves. In the same vein, are Palestinians in the West Bank at liberty to launch missile strikes on Israel due to the appropriation of their lands for Israeli settlements? Do Palestinians have the right to defend themselves as well or is that only reserved for the Israeli's? Doesnt really seem like Israel are doing to well in terms of racial bigotry either then as also evidenced through their treatment of black immigrants in their state as well.

    Ahahahaha what if anything do you know about the Arab mentality. You are just talking absolute nonsense, The majority of the authoritarian regimes in the Arab world can trace their beginnings or authoritarian predecessors with the actions of our own governments who, having promised self-determination to the Arab peoples, instead installed political strong man's (sometimes not even native to the territory that they were given) to rule as their own personal fiefdom as long as they adhered to the will of their western masters, even inheriting the repressive colonial security apparatus used to keep out dissent or any talk about democracy. Also, you probably dont have any actual clue through the drivel you talk, but Islam is far more egalitarian in nature than Judaism or Christianity. The rule of the original Rashidun caliphs at the dawn of Islam probably represented one of the most egalitarian societies within the Ummah that can't even be replicated a millennium and a half later in the supposedly equal liberal societies wrecked with inequality and competing classes of wealth, authority and interests.
    Yeah right! So I know absolutely nothing of the Arab mentality, never having been to Arab countries, or read about them, or never taken an interest in them or any other peoples with whom I share this planet, or been exposed to any news or documentaries about Arab nations for the last few decades, etc. And yeah, Islam is more egalitarian than Judaism and Christianity. LOL, thanks for the laugh !!
    The fruits of your Islamic egalitarianism are easy to see today, e.g. women walking behind their husbands like good little wives. The level of gender egalitarianism across the Abrahamic religious spectrum is obvious for all to see by their social way of life today and Islam lags conspicuously way behind the others. Oh yeah, and keep blaming Israel and the West for all the problems in the Arab world. You talk one-sided bollix with putdowns thrown in - a sure sign of a polemicist with an unwillingness for sober, warts 'n' all debate. You sound like you've swallowed a Guardian newspaper and regurgitated it like a parrot.
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    Sometimes i feel embarrassed to be a human because we are the worst creation on the face of this earth.

    Mark my words i guarantee we will not live for another 100 years because we are going to destroy ourselves, its what humans do best.
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    Is israel still firing rockets at itself ?
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    (Original post by democracyforum)
    Is israel still firing rockets at itself ?
    Committing suicide is what they are doing...
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    Palestinian requests for a ceasefire:

    The withdrawal of Israeli military tanks from the border fence area to a distance that enables Gaza farmers to access their fields and tend them freely.
    Freeing all Palestinian prisoners detained after the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers in the southern West Bank including those who were freed as part of Gilad Shalit prisoner swap. This precondition also includes softening procedures against all prisoners in Israeli custody.
    An end to the siege on the coastal enclave and the reopening of all border crossings.
    The opening of Gaza's international seaport under UN monitoring.

    An increase in Gaza fishing zone to 10 nautical miles and an increase in the size of permissible fishing boats.
    International monitoring of the Rafah crossing into Egypt.
    Closing Gaza airspace to Israeli aircraft.
    Permission to Gaza resident to be allowed to visit Jerusalem and pray in the al-Aqsa Mosque.
    No interference in Palestinian internal affairs including political arrangements and the reconciliation agreement and all its consequences.
    Re-establishment of the Gaza industrial zone


    Does this not sound reasonable?
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Palestinian requests for a ceasefire:

    The withdrawal of Israeli military tanks from the border fence area to a distance that enables Gaza farmers to access their fields and tend them freely.
    Freeing all Palestinian prisoners detained after the abduction and killing of three Israeli teenagers in the southern West Bank including those who were freed as part of Gilad Shalit prisoner swap. This precondition also includes softening procedures against all prisoners in Israeli custody.
    An end to the siege on the coastal enclave and the reopening of all border crossings.
    The opening of Gaza's international seaport under UN monitoring.

    An increase in Gaza fishing zone to 10 nautical miles and an increase in the size of permissible fishing boats.
    International monitoring of the Rafah crossing into Egypt.
    Closing Gaza airspace to Israeli aircraft.
    Permission to Gaza resident to be allowed to visit Jerusalem and pray in the al-Aqsa Mosque.
    No interference in Palestinian internal affairs including political arrangements and the reconciliation agreement and all its consequences.
    Re-establishment of the Gaza industrial zone


    Does this not sound reasonable?
    To them no because palestinians shouldn't be treated better than animals. They must remain under siege and occupation. How dare they demand their rights to be met.

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    Happened a few minutes ago.
    Well done israel, I'm sure you feel safer now. Well done.

    If that's not state terrorism, what is?
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    (Original post by DeemzBeamz)
    Happened a few minutes ago.
    Well done israel, I'm sure you feel safer now. Well done.

    If that's not state terrorism, what is?
    May I ask why when Israel warns people to evacuate (to UN shelters or out of the country if they want), they do not? Sure, a lot have, but a lot have not done so. They're remained in their homes basically waiting to be bombed even after repeated warnings.

    Also, why is Hamas not doing anything to aid its civilians? Any government would tell its civilians to evacuate, to move to UN shelters if they do not have government ones. Yet, Hamas has made no efforts to evacuate these civilians, even going as far as ignoring a ceasefire deal that they were in no position to ignore IF they cared about their civilians.

    Is it so that you can show us the pictures of dead civilian bodies and garner our sympathy, or is there some other reason that you could shed some light on?
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    May I ask why when Israel warns people to evacuate (to UN shelters or out of the country if they want), they do not? Sure, a lot have, but a lot have not done so. They're remained in their homes basically waiting to be bombed even after repeated warnings.

    Also, why is Hamas not doing anything to aid its civilians? Any government would tell its civilians to evacuate, to move to UN shelters if they do not have government ones. Yet, Hamas has made no efforts to evacuate these civilians, even going as far as ignoring a ceasefire deal that they were in no position to ignore IF they cared about their civilians.

    Is it so that you can show us the pictures of dead civilian bodies and garner our sympathy, or is there some other reason that you could shed some light on?
    Where the **** are they supposed to evacuate wheb even hospitals are under threat of being demolished. Alwafa hospital has been called up and told they must evacuate because iaf will demolish it. Where the **** are people supposed to go? Even the injured have nowhere safe.

    Schools have been hit numerous times, so far over 20 have been hit.

    You tell me, WHERE THE **** ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GO, WHERE DO WE EVACUATE WHEN PLACES YOU CONSIDER EXTREMELY SAFE ARE TARGETED?

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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    May I ask why when Israel warns people to evacuate (to UN shelters or out of the country if they want), they do not? Sure, a lot have, but a lot have not done so. They're remained in their homes basically waiting to be bombed even after repeated warnings.
    Where the **** are they going to go? Gaza is 5x smaller than London.

    The Israeli's told the Gazans to get out of North Gaza and then subsequently carried out strikes in West and South Gaza.

    Why are the Israeli's herding the Gazans into a specific area? Surely they can't be thinking of strafing them with bombs? At this moment, I wouldn't put anything past them...

    Also, why is Hamas not doing anything to aid its civilians? Any government would tell its civilians to evacuate, to move to UN shelters if they do not have government ones. Yet, Hamas has made no efforts to evacuate these civilians, even going as far as ignoring a ceasefire deal that they were in no position to ignore IF they cared about their civilians.
    Except UN schools are "fair game" to the Israeli's.

    Is it so that you can show us the pictures of dead civilian bodies and garner our sympathy, or is there some other reason that you could shed some light on?
    You are still in denial. My God! Do you want me to post some pictures of Israeli's being killed in this latest conflict?

    Well, I'm sorry but I can't. Not because I don't want to but because there has only been ONE killed and the Israeli's haven't released his picture.

    Blame the ****ing Israeli's for not giving you pictures of dead Israeli kids!!!!
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    (Original post by DeemzBeamz)
    Where the **** are they supposed to evacuate wheb even hospitals are under threat of being demolished. Alwafa hospital has been called up and told they must evacuate because iaf will demolish it. Where the **** are people supposed to go? Even the injured have nowhere safe.

    Schools have been hit numerous times, so far over 20 have been hit.

    You tell me, WHERE THE **** ARE WE SUPPOSED TO GO, WHERE DO WE EVACUATE WHEN PLACES YOU CONSIDER EXTREMELY SAFE ARE TARGETED?

    Posted from TSR Mobile

    This (may I add very Pro-Palestine) article explains that many Gazans seeking refuge have found it in UN shelters which are not being bombed. The conditions are grim, but it's still safe. Israel hasn't bombed a UN shelter to the best of my knowledge.

    My heart goes out to the civilians who seek shelter and have to suffer through these tough conditions as a result of politics they might not even wish to be involved with. But I have no pity for those who choose to stay despite warnings. It's too bad their children have to suffer.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5582432.html
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    (Original post by tsr1269)
    Where the **** are they going to go? Gaza is 5x smaller than London.

    The Israeli's told the Gazans to get out of North Gaza and then subsequently carried out strikes in West and South Gaza.

    Why are the Israeli's herding the Gazans into a specific area? Surely they can't be thinking of strafing them with bombs? At this moment, I wouldn't put anything past them...



    Except UN schools are "fair game" to the Israeli's.

    Nope, the tweet makes reference to schools, not UN schools. As the IDF has identified some of them as military targets, yes they are fair game. It's too bad Hamas likes to carry its operations out from schools and hospitals, isn't it?




    You are still in denial. My God! Do you want me to post some pictures of Israeli's being killed in this latest conflict?

    Well, I'm sorry but I can't. Not because I don't want to but because there has only been ONE killed and the Israeli's haven't released his picture.

    Blame the ****ing Israeli's for not giving you pictures of dead Israeli kids!!!!

    Oh, I'm sorry! Because Israel has shelters for its people as well as the Iron Dome to protect them, there have been no casualties. It's not for lack of trying of Hamas who have been firing hundreds of rockets on a daily basis, it's because so far Israel's defense system has worked. Will you feel better if there were hundreds of Israelis dying? Would you then say that the conflict is somehow justified?

    Of course the Israelis haven't released his picture. They don't need to garner pity from the masses like Gaza does. They don't like using their dead as weapons of propaganda for the clueless masses.
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    (Original post by miavdbt)
    This (may I add very Pro-Palestine) article explains that many Gazans seeking refuge have found it in UN shelters which are not being bombed. The conditions are grim, but it's still safe. Israel hasn't bombed a UN shelter to the best of my knowledge.

    My heart goes out to the civilians who seek shelter and have to suffer through these tough conditions as a result of politics they might not even wish to be involved with. But I have no pity for those who choose to stay despite warnings. It's too bad their children have to suffer.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5582432.html
    I won't debate people who pretend they care about civilian life then justify the premeditated murder of 4 children because there's a "safe place" in gaza.


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    (Original post by DeemzBeamz)
    I won't debate people who pretend they care about civilian life then justify the premeditated murder of 4 children because there's a "safe place" in gaza.


    Posted from TSR Mobile
    There is though. It's sad those kids died. Their parents should have taken better care of them. I blame their parents and Hamas. The IDF has actually tried to protect civilians from dying by warning them to evacuate, because they might be bombing near them.

    Oh, and it's not premeditated murder. The IDF did not have some scheme to kill these children specifically. Stop demonizing them for no reason and try thinking about it. They bombed a military target, kids happened to be in the way because their good for nothing parents couldn't even try to evacuate them despite warnings.
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    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    no :rolleyes: i said the palestinian issue is hijacked by islamists and their agendas, as is the case in most disputes involving muslim populations round the globe - checnya, uighur china, kashmir, nigeria, somalia, sudan etc. what are are stuggling to understand
    What has that got to do with the topic at hand? You seem to waffle around making no real point. After frivolously going back and forth with you, you tell me I should've deciphered you meant the above from these posts from you;

    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    jerusalem prior to the arabs invading it was part of the earlier roman empire, so it was filled with romans, jews, egyptians, nubians, persians and christians all living together before even islam had appeared in arabia.


    (Original post by Meenglishnogood)
    i dont really see any such solution, dont forget the british when carving up the entire middle east and n.africa created 8-10 islamic countries for the muslims to live and 1 jewish state, and still they cant live peacebley, 1 more muslim country isnt going to improve things, jsut ging to be one more breeding ground for islamist activity
 
 
 
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