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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    It's hardly a 'hissy fit'. The country has been devastated.

    Obviously the problem was over-borrowing, but as in the UK, it isn't the tax evaders and avoiders, the bankers, or the politicians who are suffering from the austerity - it is the poor and the middle class.

    Austerity suppresses demand and causes deflation, which is happening in the UK, across Europe and elsewhere. For sure the Greeks made a lot of very bad mistakes (or at least, corrupt civil servants, the rich and bankers did) but the payment is being made by the majority. The austerity programme is pushing us collectively back to the early 30s and in some ways things are already worse than they were then. The current depression has lasted longer and wages are not recovering as they did after some years back then.

    A more sensible way out would be to leave the Euro, default (most of the bankers to whom the money is owed are little better than gangsters anyway) and set a new economic system up. I doubt that Greece can handle all this alone, but at the moment, the 'Troika' is basically just about ensuring that Goldman $achs and JP Morgan retain the profits of their programme of Euro-manipulation.
    No it's not. It's about taking responsibility for your actions. I think the Finnish PM put it best when he said in an interview:

    "we lent Greece €1bn, when our total annual budget is only €52bn. They agreed to do certain things in return for that loan. We expect them to stick to their agreements."

    What exactly is wrong with that? You should not be free to renege on such an agreement.
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    (Original post by tengentoppa)
    No it's not. It's about taking responsibility for your actions. I think the Finnish PM put it best when he said in an interview:

    "we lent Greece €1bn, when our total annual budget is only €52bn. They agreed to do certain things in return for that loan. We expect them to stick to their agreements."

    What exactly is wrong with that? You should not be free to renege on such an agreement.
    Well Finland can invade, or seize assets
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    Lol at begging for war reparations, what sort of idiots start their negotiations by accusing the German government of still being responsible for the Nazis

    It would be funny if the Greeks weren't so screwed by these idiots
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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Your own governments past and present are to blame and nobody else. Certainly not those who bailed them out of their own sodding mess.


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    As i have previously stated, i don't agree 100% but thanks for contributing to the discussion.
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    (Original post by jakeel1)
    Lol at begging for war reparations, what sort of idiots start their negotiations by accusing the German government of still being responsible for the Nazis

    It would be funny if the Greeks weren't so screwed by these idiots
    "Hey guys.. So we're reasonable and want you to relax our payments to you so I've got an idea... why not give us reparations for crimes committed over 70 years ago.."

    If that's an actual negotiating tactic then i really do weep for humanity.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    As i have previously stated, i don't agree 100% but thanks for contributing to the discussion.
    Why don't you agree? Who was forcing successive governments to blow their money?


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    (Original post by Midlander)
    Why don't you agree? Who was forcing successive governments to blow their money?


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    No one. As i have previously said, I believe both Troika and past Greek govenments are to blame but mostly Troika. Greece had deficit problems in the past too but made it without Troika. Troika was supposed to help but it didn't.
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    (Original post by anastas)
    No one. As i have previously said, I believe both Troika and past Greek govenments are to blame but mostly Troika. Greece had deficit problems in the past too but made it without Troika. Troika was supposed to help but it didn't.
    Greece would have defaulted and caused havoc in the Euro had they not been bailed. There's a reason your bonds were yielding 140%.

    The fact that you were made to do stuff is your fault. Vote for a fiscally conservative government.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Greece would have defaulted and caused havoc in the Euro had they not been bailed. There's a reason your bonds were yielding 140%.

    The fact that you were made to do stuff is your fault. Vote for a fiscally conservative government.
    That never happened did it?

    20% on the 10 year, no?
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    (Original post by Quady)
    That never happened did it?

    20% on the 10 year, no?
    2 years went through the roof.
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    (Original post by Quady)
    That never happened did it?

    20% on the 10 year, no?
    http://www.investing.com/rates-bonds...advanced-chart

    Unless i'm reading this chart wrong it would indicate they reached 400% in July 12.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    Well that went well. Three weeks in and the Prime Minister is already calling to abandon anti-austerity. I wonder why...perhaps it is simply not economically viable...

    http://m.bbc.co.uk/news/business-31499815
    Errrrr a vote on abandoning the austerity programme. Thats the opposite of abandoning anti-austerity.

    What do you think Bornblue? Would Labour do what Syriza are doing? No, we need the SWP to stand up and fight for our rights.
    (Original post by Bornblue)
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Bit early to be proclaiming some great victory. Sure if Greece rejects austerity and goes on to thrive then go for it. TIll then, its going to be one hell of a bumpy ride, assuming the government actually matches its rhetoric.
    No danger of that, as there never is. Just another left wing party of delusionals, economic illiterates and populist machiavellians who all, whether by force or their own calculated intention, abandon their pre-election nonsense once in power.
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    (Original post by Birkenhead)
    No danger of that, as there never is. Just another left wing party of delusionals, economic illiterates and populist machiavellians who all, whether by force or their own calculated intention, abandon their pre-election nonsense once in power.
    Well so far they have completely failed in their attempts to negotiate any sort of deal. I'm not sure why anyone would bet on the Germans easing up on the Greeks. Still I have to wonder where things will go from now. Syriza don't seem the sort to back down and I don't see how they can go back on such an electoral pledge. If neither side budges I imagine it'll only lead to Greece leaving the EU.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Well so far they have completely failed in their attempts to negotiate any sort of deal. I'm not sure why anyone would bet on the Germans easing up on the Greeks. Still I have to wonder where things will go from now. Syriza don't seem the sort to back down and I don't see how they can go back on such an electoral pledge. If neither side budges I imagine it'll only lead to Greece leaving the EU.
    Strategically it would not be a bad play for them to let Greece go. The German people are vindicated in their economic superiority and Merkel can play off that the next time a state is in trouble to force terms even more favourable to Germany 'well look how kind we were to Greece but look how they treat us for it defaulting on their debts'. Within the council and parliament Syriza being there also strengthens the French-Spanish-Italian block who want a more protectionist and left wing Europe so Germany gets to weaken them.
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    (Original post by Aj12)
    Well so far they have completely failed in their attempts to negotiate any sort of deal. I'm not sure why anyone would bet on the Germans easing up on the Greeks. Still I have to wonder where things will go from now. Syriza don't seem the sort to back down and I don't see how they can go back on such an electoral pledge. If neither side budges I imagine it'll only lead to Greece leaving the EU.
    Or at least the Euro. Isn't that more or less inevitable now?

    The real political task for Syriza is explaining to the Greek public why that is the only way forward for them, which is going to be incredibly difficult.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Strategically it would not be a bad play for them to let Greece go. The German people are vindicated in their economic superiority and Merkel can play off that the next time a state is in trouble to force terms even more favourable to Germany 'well look how kind we were to Greece but look how they treat us for it defaulting on their debts'. Within the council and parliament Syriza being there also strengthens the French-Spanish-Italian block who want a more protectionist and left wing Europe so Germany gets to weaken them.
    A full chaotic default inside the Euro is almost unimaginable, I don't believe it could happen. However, if Germany insists on no deep relaxation of terms and Greece remains unwilling to leave, chaotic default is what we're going to get.

    At the very least, it will expose the the truth about the stress tested banks, but the results won't be pretty for any of us.
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    Paul Krugman from Princeton on Newsnight right now, talking about the crisis in Greece. He says that the EU are demanding a tripling in repayment levels and massively deeper austerity. He says this is completely impossible for Greece but that if it is enforced, Syriza will be replaced by someone more extreme.

    He says that Irish economists are telling him that the Irish government has been proven to be willing to act against the interests of its own people in favour of the agenda set by Brussels and this is what has emboldened the EU to attack Greece in the same way.

    Krugman says if Greek reparations "for ever" are unacceptable, which they will be, Greece has no choice but a messy default.

    He says that the UK has a terrible record on policy under the coalition, which he describes as having been one of "hitting the country over the head with a bat and now temporarily stopping, but being determined to start again after the election". He says the austerity policy has been disastrous to date.
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    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    A full chaotic default inside the Euro is almost unimaginable, I don't believe it could happen. However, if Germany insists on no deep relaxation of terms and Greece remains unwilling to leave, chaotic default is what we're going to get.

    Atthe very least, it will exposthe the truth about the stress tested banks, but the results won't be pretty for any of us.
    Aye but it won't be chaotic i don't think. Greece won't default on the 28th straight away, that's just when the ECB will stop pumping money into the banks (i.e. Greek banks would have to go to the markets). This would likely give some time for Greece and the EU to set a date (and imply that Greece would default as soon as it goes) this buys time leaving the EU with 2 options..

    1) The European financial stability facility can cover upto 750bn (designed to cover Spain in the worst case) so what they could do is have that purchase all EU Greek debt and take the loss that way. EU states over time would then contribute to it again.

    2) The EFSF gives the money to each states banks as a loan to cover the loss from Greece

    (Original post by Fullofsurprises)
    Paul Krugman from Princeton on Newsnight right now, talking about the crisis in Greece. He says that the EU are demanding a tripling in repayment levels and massively deeper austerity. He says this is completely impossible for Greece but that if it is enforced, Syriza will be replaced by someone more extreme.

    He says that Irish economists are telling him that the Irish government has been proven to be willing to act against the interests of its own people in favour of the agenda set by Brussels and this is what has emboldened the EU to attack Greece in the same way.

    Krugman says if Greek reparations "for ever" are unacceptable, which they will be, Greece has no choice but a messy default.

    He says that the UK has a terrible record on policy under the coalition, which he describes as having been one of "hitting the country over the head with a bat and now temporarily stopping, but being determined to start again after the election". He says the austerity policy has been disastrous to date.
    Interesting guy. Ireland's actually a model student for austerity now though within Europe.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Aye but it won't be chaotic i don't think. Greece won't default on the 28th straight away, that's just when the ECB will stop pumping money into the banks (i.e. Greek banks would have to go to the markets). This would likely give some time for Greece and the EU to set a date (and imply that Greece would default as soon as it goes) this buys time leaving the EU with 2 options..

    1) The European financial stability facility can cover upto 750bn (designed to cover Spain in the worst case) so what they could do is have that purchase all EU Greek debt and take the loss that way. EU states over time would then contribute to it again.

    2) The EFSF gives the money to each states banks as a loan to cover the loss from Greece
    Afaik, the EFSF plus the additional EFSM (more and more desperate abbreviated emergency instruments will doubtless appear :giggle:) is about 300bn Euros, which doesn't sound nearly enough? Amusingly, Greece will be one of the participants, coughing up a non-existent 13bn Euros to help rescue itself!

    (Original post by Rakas21)
    Interesting guy. Ireland's actually a model student for austerity now though within Europe.
    He's a very stimulating thinker and one of the smartest people around. So far, he's been proved right about most things in the crisis.
 
 
 
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