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    (Original post by geoking)
    Working as a web dev (sounds more like front end than back end) you should know making a db query doesn't involve tickets or test environments as it's a read-only operation.

    True the time at which it is ran would have to be something like 4 a.m. but that's not really a problem as it can be automated. An SQL dump may not be useful, or it may be useful if it was turned into CSV format, depending on the output. Again I really do believe that a half competent DB operator could do this in a morning if they had knowledge of the DB structure
    I do a combination of front end and back end. Running the db query itself doesn't involve tickets, however if this goes ahead, I imagine it will be the community team, not the dev team who decide to go ahead with it, in which case a ticket (or whatever TSR HQ use) would be required. The query itself wouldn't require any testing, however any way of presenting the results certainly would.

    I agree it could be automated and run at night, but the effect it has still needs to be taken into consideration, the board is active 24/7 - so any query needs to not lock any of the important tables (posts, warning, etc). Even in CSV format, you are going to have a mess, I believe for this to be in any way useful, it would need to be converted to something more useful, most likely a full user interface. There is also the other aspects Hype said about, you would need to remove anything unsuitable for public viewing (i.e. porn), you would need to either have a way of making warnings anonymous or have an opt-out feature, and so-on - bringing back to the point that while an SQL query would take a half-day say, the finished product suitable for viewing would take weeks of dev time...
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    I wonder how many people would really be happy with others knowing why thye got a warning? I certainly wouldn't be. I think that's something that should be between me and the mods.
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    (Original post by OU Student)
    I wonder how many people would really be happy with others knowing why thye got a warning? I certainly wouldn't be. I think that's something that should be between me and the mods.
    I agree with that. I have never received a warning or a card, but that doesn't mean that it will never happen. Anyone can slip up, for example in the heat of a debate. If that happened, I'd rather have my post removed, accept my card (take it on the chin, so to say), and move on from it, rather than have the embarrassing moment on display not just for those who were involved in the debate at the time, but everyone else who wants to analyse the records.
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    (Original post by OU Student)
    I wonder how many people would really be happy with others knowing why thye got a warning? I certainly wouldn't be. I think that's something that should be between me and the mods.
    (Original post by Kittiara)
    I agree with that. I have never received a warning or a card, but that doesn't mean that it will never happen. Anyone can slip up, for example in the heat of a debate. If that happened, I'd rather have my post removed, accept my card (take it on the chin, so to say), and move on from it, rather than have the embarrassing moment on display not just for those who were involved in the debate at the time, but everyone else who wants to analyse the records.
    But it already happens - if I make a report, I know if it's successful, plus if you see a post and at the bottom it's been edited by a moderator...well that's a bit of a smoking gun
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    (Original post by rmhumphries)
    I do a combination of front end and back end. Running the db query itself doesn't involve tickets, however if this goes ahead, I imagine it will be the community team, not the dev team who decide to go ahead with it, in which case a ticket (or whatever TSR HQ use) would be required. The query itself wouldn't require any testing, however any way of presenting the results certainly would.

    I agree it could be automated and run at night, but the effect it has still needs to be taken into consideration, the board is active 24/7 - so any query needs to not lock any of the important tables (posts, warning, etc). Even in CSV format, you are going to have a mess, I believe for this to be in any way useful, it would need to be converted to something more useful, most likely a full user interface. There is also the other aspects Hype said about, you would need to remove anything unsuitable for public viewing (i.e. porn), you would need to either have a way of making warnings anonymous or have an opt-out feature, and so-on - bringing back to the point that while an SQL query would take a half-day say, the finished product suitable for viewing would take weeks of dev time...
    While your points are good, I'd disagree with it taking weeks of dev time. To make a page that interacted with the results, you could just put a CSV straight into a HTML table. There's no need to make it absurdly fancy to begin with - just a simple table showing summary stats and if people think it'd help, more detail.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    But it already happens - if I make a report, I know if it's successful, plus if you see a post and at the bottom it's been edited by a moderator...well that's a bit of a smoking gun
    No it doesn't already happen. If I do reports, I normally just reply with "removedwith, thanks for reporting". Which doesn't always means I've warned someone. Some offences are so minor that whilst they do need to be removed, the user doesn't need to be warned.

    And you don't always know why it's been edited either. For example, I once edited a post because of the lack of paragraphs, which isn't a warnable offence.
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    (Original post by OU Student)
    No it doesn't already happen. If I do reports, I normally just reply with "removedwith, thanks for reporting". Which doesn't always means I've warned someone. Some offences are so minor that whilst they do need to be removed, the user doesn't need to be warned.

    And you don't always know why it's been edited either. For example, I once edited a post because of the lack of paragraphs, which isn't a warnable offence.
    Sometimes I swear it should be. :sadnod:
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    (Original post by OU Student)
    No it doesn't already happen. If I do reports, I normally just reply with "removedwith, thanks for reporting". Which doesn't always means I've warned someone. Some offences are so minor that whilst they do need to be removed, the user doesn't need to be warned.

    And you don't always know why it's been edited either. For example, I once edited a post because of the lack of paragraphs, which isn't a warnable offence.
    The difference there though is minor. The person has been "busted", why would anyone really care if someone else found out the severity? :confused:

    I'm going to guess that editing for grammatical reasons is on the "1 in a 100" list rather than the "rule infraction" list...
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    (Original post by superwolf)
    Sometimes I swear it should be. :sadnod:
    I think it should be too. Sadly, it's not.
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    (Original post by rmhumphries)
    I do a combination of front end and back end. Running the db query itself doesn't involve tickets, however if this goes ahead, I imagine it will be the community team, not the dev team who decide to go ahead with it, in which case a ticket (or whatever TSR HQ use) would be required. The query itself wouldn't require any testing, however any way of presenting the results certainly would.

    I agree it could be automated and run at night, but the effect it has still needs to be taken into consideration, the board is active 24/7 - so any query needs to not lock any of the important tables (posts, warning, etc). Even in CSV format, you are going to have a mess, I believe for this to be in any way useful, it would need to be converted to something more useful, most likely a full user interface. There is also the other aspects Hype said about, you would need to remove anything unsuitable for public viewing (i.e. porn), you would need to either have a way of making warnings anonymous or have an opt-out feature, and so-on - bringing back to the point that while an SQL query would take a half-day say, the finished product suitable for viewing would take weeks of dev time...
    Not to mention, the key time-consumer that jumped to my mind, is the amount of information that can't be taken from a database and is expected to be created or inputted de novo. Either you leave it out (missing out most of the utility of the proposal), or you put it in and expect mods and CT to pick up the slack (which will see a mass exodus of volunteers, and very dissatisfied staff).

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    (Original post by geoking)
    But it already happens - if I make a report, I know if it's successful, plus if you see a post and at the bottom it's been edited by a moderator...well that's a bit of a smoking gun
    If you reported my post, though, it would just be you knowing that you did that, and a moderator would deal with it, and if it were indeed a post that I needed to receive a warning for, I'd get a card. Perhaps a couple of people would notice that my post had vanished into thin air. But that would be that. It wouldn't be pinned on an equivalent of a notice board, pointing out to everyone that "Kit has been naughty!"

    I mean, it wouldn't be the end of the world if that happened, and I doubt anyone would really care, but I figure that if something's been dealt with, leave it be.

    A post that has been edited by a moderator does make me curious, that's true . Only for a split-second, though, and I can't say that I remember any names of people that's happened to.

    Anyway, for me it would be a minor embarrassment. But what about people who have a big public mental breakdown? It does happen, I've seen it. That would be horrible to have on display for people to read later on.
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    (Original post by Kittiara)
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    (Original post by geoking)
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    Let's say just for example, that this were to go ahead - would you actually need to name the member who did the offence... if all you're looking for is to see why the cards are being given out, surely whoever committed the offence is irrelevant...???
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    (Original post by Kittiara)
    If you reported my post, though, it would just be you knowing that you did that, and a moderator would deal with it, and if it were indeed a post that I needed to receive a warning for, I'd get a card. Perhaps a couple of people would notice that my post had vanished into thin air. But that would be that. It wouldn't be pinned on an equivalent of a notice board, pointing out to everyone that "Kit has been naughty!"

    I mean, it wouldn't be the end of the world if that happened, and I doubt anyone would really care, but I figure that if something's been dealt with, leave it be.

    A post that has been edited by a moderator does make me curious, that's true . Only for a split-second, though, and I can't say that I remember any names of people that's happened to.

    Anyway, for me it would be a minor embarrassment. But what about people who have a big public mental breakdown? It does happen, I've seen it. That would be horrible to have on display for people to read later on.
    What does it matter if one person or everyone finds out? I fail to see the difference that isn't based on some arbitrary number....Plus, what's wrong with a name and shame process? If it encourages good behaviour, how is that a problem? As you point out people should be indifferent whether one or everyone knows about their moderation history.

    I have to admit, nothing on this site could embarrass me - it's not real life so ultimately it doesn't matter. That being said, I do see massive room for improvement hence this thread.

    If someone has a big public breakdown, the key word is "public" - it's already happened, and maybe it will help steer them back in the right direction.

    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    Let's say just for example, that this were to go ahead - would you actually need to name the member who did the offence... if all you're looking for is to see why the cards are being given out, surely whoever committed the offence is irrelevant...???
    Yep I'd agree with that, I was just rolling on with what other mods said, but I think the value is in what cards are issued and the reasons why. Names, I think, are unimportant, and would just give people ammunition against users. What would be good is to see when there's influx of spam/trolls or cards are issued over slightly ambiguous rules to clarify the stance of the moderators - what they and other users think is offence could, and does at times, differ wildly.
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    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    Let's say just for example, that this were to go ahead - would you actually need to name the member who did the offence... if all you're looking for is to see why the cards are being given out, surely whoever committed the offence is irrelevant...???
    What about repeated offences though? You'd have to give people a pseudonym.
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    (Original post by geoking)
    Plus, what's wrong with a name and shame process? If it encourages good behaviour, how is that a problem?
    But it was that that lead to neg rep being removed, the notion that being publicly outed as wrong made the forum come over as unwelcoming. The CT isn't going to introduce anything which goes back to that.

    And, fwiw, I'm agreeing with you on that front. Something like that doesn't, imo, make the forum worse and should be fine, but that decision has already been made, like it or not.
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    (Original post by mobbsy91)
    Let's say just for example, that this were to go ahead - would you actually need to name the member who did the offence... if all you're looking for is to see why the cards are being given out, surely whoever committed the offence is irrelevant...???
    That's true. I'd just hope that it wouldn't lead to speculation and finger-pointing.

    (Original post by geoking)
    What does it matter if one person or everyone finds out? I fail to see the difference that isn't based on some arbitrary number....Plus, what's wrong with a name and shame process? If it encourages good behaviour, how is that a problem? As you point out people should be indifferent whether one or everyone knows about their moderation history.

    I have to admit, nothing on this site could embarrass me - it's not real life so ultimately it doesn't matter. That being said, I do see massive room for improvement hence this thread.

    If someone has a big public breakdown, the key word is "public" - it's already happened, and maybe it will help steer them back in the right direction.
    I don't really believe in naming and shaming. Unless someone has committed a horrible crime and has been found guilty of such a crime, and it is in the public interest that their name should be revealed, I don't think that there is any call for that. And considering we're on an Internet forum, that doesn't apply here.

    I'd argue that you obviously do care. You didn't like it when you were carded, and it led you to questioning the moderation system. Which is fair enough. I never cared when I received neg rep, but it turned out that many other people did. That was fair enough as well. Different people care about different things.

    And, when people have a big public mental breakdown, yeah, it's happened, and yeah, some people will have seen it, but they should be allowed to move on from it instead of it being dragged back to public attention.
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    (Original post by Kittiara)
    That's true. I'd just hope that it wouldn't lead to speculation and finger-pointing.



    I don't really believe in naming and shaming. Unless someone has committed a horrible crime and has been found guilty of such a crime, and it is in the public interest that their name should be revealed, I don't think that there is any call for that. And considering we're on an Internet forum, that doesn't apply here

    I'd argue that you obviously do care. You didn't like it when you were carded, and it led you to questioning the moderation system. Which is fair enough. I never cared when I received neg rep, but it turned out that many other people did. That was fair enough as well. Different people care about different things.

    And, when people have a big public mental breakdown, yeah, it's happened, and yeah, some people will have seen it, but they should be allowed to move on from it instead of it being dragged back to public attention.
    I care because the more cards I get, closer I am to a red card, and I'm on strike 2 for HR.

    (Original post by Drewski)
    But it was that that lead to neg rep being removed, the notion that being publicly outed as wrong made the forum come over as unwelcoming. The CT isn't going to introduce anything which goes back to that.

    And, fwiw, I'm agreeing with you on that front. Something like that doesn't, imo, make the forum worse and should be fine, but that decision has already been made, like it or not.
    Sadly that shows how misguided the CT is if they thing neg rep is "unwelcoming". If you want unwelcoming go to the arse end of the internet like 4chan, stormfront or the like :lol: It sounds like the CT were clutching at straws at how to gain new members - making it a place where healthy debate can occur rather than another forum where meaningless drivel makes up 99% of the posts and is little more than a time killer in between facebook and reddit
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    (Original post by geoking)
    Sadly that shows how misguided the CT is if they thing neg rep is "unwelcoming". If you want unwelcoming go to the arse end of the internet like 4chan, stormfront or the like :lol: It sounds like the CT were clutching at straws at how to gain new members - making it a place where healthy debate can occur rather than another forum where meaningless drivel makes up 99% of the posts and is little more than a time killer in between facebook and reddit
    Be that as it may, that's the decision that was taken. It's not going to be reversed.
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    (Original post by Drewski)
    Be that as it may, that's the decision that was taken. It's not going to be reversed.
    My man, money is king, and if a different direction is more lucrative, backtracking can occur
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    (Original post by Hype en Ecosse)
    Not to mention, the key time-consumer that jumped to my mind, is the amount of information that can't be taken from a database and is expected to be created or inputted de novo. Either you leave it out (missing out most of the utility of the proposal), or you put it in and expect mods and CT to pick up the slack (which will see a mass exodus of volunteers, and very dissatisfied staff).

    Posted from TSR Mobile
    This. Context and/or moderation would be needed on the data, which would cause CT/mod time to be used each month.

    (Original post by geoking)
    While your points are good, I'd disagree with it taking weeks of dev time. To make a page that interacted with the results, you could just put a CSV straight into a HTML table. There's no need to make it absurdly fancy to begin with - just a simple table showing summary stats and if people think it'd help, more detail.
    I still think, based on vague knowledge of how VB is likely to store such information, it would need more than a simple rehash to display the data. Add in the points I made about things like the CT/mod time needed to remove posts unsuitable for posting in public (i.e. porn), and it could quite easily reach time needing magnitude of weeks.
 
 
 
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