Rights of the father. Watch

41b
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#121
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#121
(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
I love my mother. And for that reason if she hadn't wanted me I would much rather she wasn't forced to go through a labour and birth that she didn't want.
What a convenient answer.

The truth of the matter is that no one who is alive today, who hasn't already killed themselves or will shortly do so, values their life and, if given the choice, would choose to live rather than to die.

The fact that you would promote your own suicide, or rather, killing, by your mother if it caused her "distress" shows how odd and illogical your views are. I don't care if a woman has to cry and wail and be miserable for the rest of her life - she doesn't have the right to kill someone else. If that person agrees with his mother's decision then he is free to commit suicide. As he almost certainly won't, however, it rather shows up abortion as nothing more than infanticide.

I can see there being a pragmatic argument for it - perhaps within the first 8 weeks to prevent total chaos - but on a moral level, abortion is absolutely evil. You are killing your own child. There can be no worse crime, biological or mental, for a mother. Every story I've heard of a woman who's had abortion confirms to me that they, in hindsight, would have preferred to let their child live, if even only to give him up for adoption. How selfish to kill something rather than go through a few months of, what is relatively, such a minor discomfort.
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ChickenMadness
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#122
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#122
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
I deleted my post off the other thread.

Anyway, the points are largely the same so I am going to deal with the first one.

That is correct. How can the Father to choose to be absolved of responsibility when he has no responsibility during pregnancy?

He has neither physical or financial responsibility during that time period so he cannot be absolved of responsibility when he has none.
Because pregnancy is the harbinger of an 18 year financial sentence.

The woman has no responsibility during pregnancy either because it is optional for her.
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DorianGrayism
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#123
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#123
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
Because pregnancy is the harbinger of an 18 year financial sentence.
That doesn't change the fact that a man has no responsibilities during pregnancy or that he can choose not to have sex in the first place.

A Father cannot be absolved of responsibility during Pregnancy when he has none.


(Original post by ChickenMadness)
The woman has no responsibility during pregnancy either because it is optional for her.
That doesn't make any sense.
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zippity.doodah
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#124
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#124
until 24 weeks (with notice), the father should have a right to walk away, or should be asked to sign a contract declaring that he takes responsibility before this 24 week period otherwise
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username457532
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#125
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#125
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
What rights do I want to take away? I want to give rights to people that don't have any.

The fathers right to be absolved of responsibility. Just like the woman has.
You said that the foetus had 'a right to life', implying that it's 'rights' should come before a woman's.

I'm not saying he has to have any emotionally connection to the child but we shouldn't punish a child because one of it's parents is selfish.

(Original post by 41b)
What a convenient answer.

The truth of the matter is that no one who is alive today, who hasn't already killed themselves or will shortly do so, values their life and, if given the choice, would choose to live rather than to die.

The fact that you would promote your own suicide, or rather, killing, by your mother if it caused her "distress" shows how odd and illogical your views are. I don't care if a woman has to cry and wail and be miserable for the rest of her life - she doesn't have the right to kill someone else. If that person agrees with his mother's decision then he is free to commit suicide. As he almost certainly won't, however, it rather shows up abortion as nothing more than infanticide.

I can see there being a pragmatic argument for it - perhaps within the first 8 weeks to prevent total chaos - but on a moral level, abortion is absolutely evil. You are killing your own child. There can be no worse crime, biological or mental, for a mother. Every story I've heard of a woman who's had abortion confirms to me that they, in hindsight, would have preferred to let their child live, if even only to give him up for adoption. How selfish to kill something rather than go through a few months of, what is relatively, such a minor discomfort.
Because loads of women would write an article detailing how good their life is after abortion? It's the same reason you find bad reviews of services more often, people generally are more likely to write about something if they aren't happy than if they are.
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ChickenMadness
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#126
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#126
(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
You said that the foetus had 'a right to life', implying that it's 'rights' should come before a woman's.

I'm not saying he has to have any emotionally connection to the child but we shouldn't punish a child because one of it's parents is selfish.
I didn't say the feotus has a right to life (although that's what I think) because this thread is about the fathers rights. And under current they don't take into account what the child wants so it's really an irrelevant thing to argue about ITT.

Thats a rather nonsensical thing to say when you support abortion.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
1)That doesn't change the fact that a man has no responsibilities during pregnancy or that he can choose not to have sex in the first place.




2)That doesn't make any sense.
1) see a woman doesn't have to worry about that because she can just get an abortion.

2) The woman doesn't have to go through with pregnancy if she doesn't want to. She doesn't have any responsibility of care towards the pregnancy(her child).

All the responsibilities of pregnancy are not something she is forced to go through with.
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41b
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#127
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(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
You said that the foetus had 'a right to life', implying that it's 'rights' should come before a woman's.

I'm not saying he has to have any emotionally connection to the child but we shouldn't punish a child because one of it's parents is selfish.



Because loads of women would write an article detailing how good their life is after abortion? It's the same reason you find bad reviews of services more often, people generally are more likely to write about something if they aren't happy than if they are.
And what of the rest of what I said?

You're focusing entirely on how women feel. How women feel is 100% irrelevant. Someone's feelings do not take precedence over someone else's life. (!)
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username457532
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#128
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#128
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
I didn't say the feotus has a right to life (although that's what I think) because this thread is about the fathers rights. And under current they don't take into account what the child wants so it's really an irrelevant thing to argue about ITT.

Thats a rather nonsensical thing to say when you support abortion.
No. Not being born is not a punishment. Living in poverty is.
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DorianGrayism
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#129
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#129
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
1) see a woman doesn't have to worry about that because she can just get an abortion.

2) The woman doesn't have to go through with pregnancy if she doesn't want to. She doesn't have any responsibility of care towards the pregnancy(her child).

All the responsibilities of pregnancy are not something she is forced to go through with.
1) A woman can choose to get an abortion. That is because she has Physical and financial responsibility during pregnancy. A man does not.

2) She does have the Financial and Physical responsibility if she chooses to do so. A man does not have a choice during pregnancy because he has no Physical or Financial responsibility.
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ChickenMadness
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#130
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#130
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
1) A woman can choose to get an abortion. That is because she has Physical and financial responsibility during pregnancy. A man does not.

2) The fact she can choose to be responsible doesn't change the fact she has all the Physical and Financial responsibility during Pregnancy and a man has none.
Don't really see this as a valid argument for forcing the man to pay child support when the woman doesn't have to if she doesn't want to.

(Original post by SmallTownGirl)
No. Not being born is not a punishment. Living in poverty is.
Not really your place to say being alive is a punishment when the alternative is death lol.

you're really bad at debating though. You ignore everything people post and focus on really tiny points irrelevant to the subject of the thread. I actually never mentioned pro-life vs pro-choice in any of my posts but you've somehow managed to change the subject into it lol.
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DorianGrayism
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#131
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(Original post by ChickenMadness)
Don't really see this as a valid argument for forcing the man to pay child support when the woman doesn't have to if she doesn't want to.
No, you are wrong. The woman has to pay child support when the Man is the primary custodian.
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41b
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#132
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(Original post by ChickenMadness)
Don't really see this as a valid argument for forcing the man to pay child support when the woman doesn't have to if she doesn't want to.



Not really your place to say being alive is a punishment lol.

you're really bad at debating though. You ignore everything people post and focus on really tiny points irrelevant to the subject of the thread. I actually never mentioned pro-life vs pro-choice in any of my posts but you've somehow managed to change the subject into it lol.


In her defence, I was having the pro-life debate with her (although even there she was focusing on the irrelevant parts).
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ChickenMadness
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#133
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#133
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
No, you are wrong. The woman has to pay child support when the Man is the primary custodian.
Not if she aborted the kid in the first place.
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41b
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#134
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#134
(Original post by DorianGrayism)
No, you are wrong. The woman has to pay child support when the Man is the primary custodian.
The point he's making is that she purely doesn't. She can get an abortion and forego it entirely.

A man cannot get an abortion and has to pay 18 years of child support.

Therefore the woman only has to pay child support if she carries it to term. She has a get out of jail free card, which the man does not.
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DorianGrayism
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#135
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#135
(Original post by ChickenMadness)
Not if she aborted the kid in the first place.
Ok. Then the man wouldn't have to pay Child support either.......
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James Milibanter
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#136
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(Original post by 41b)
The point he's making is that she purely doesn't. She can get an abortion and forego it entirely.

A man cannot get an abortion and has to pay 18 years of child support.

Therefore the woman only has to pay child support if she carries it to term. She has a get out of jail free card, which the man does not.
The man doesn't have to pay child support in that event either.

A man can choose to not have sex.
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DorianGrayism
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#137
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(Original post by 41b)
The point he's making is that she purely doesn't. She can get an abortion and forego it entirely.

A man cannot get an abortion and has to pay 18 years of child support.

Therefore the woman only has to pay child support if she carries it to term. She has a get out of jail free card, which the man does not.
I know she can have an abortion.

The man chose to have sex in the knowledge that she can get pregnant and have an abortion or keep the baby.

Abortion has nothing to do with the male so whether the Male sees it as a magical get out of free card is irrelevant.
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ChickenMadness
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#138
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(Original post by DorianGrayism)
Ok. Then the man wouldn't have to pay Child support either.......
And the woman could take away the man's ability to be primary custodian anyway by aborting it. If she knew she'd be seen as less fit than the man she could easily do it out of spite and not wanting to pay child support and be entirely within her rights.

Anything the father wants can just be countered by actions of the mother through loopholes in the law. Which isn't fair.

The fairest solution to the current pro-choice (of the mother) mindset our laws have taken is to give the man the choice of opting out of the whole situation.


Actually I think the fairest solution would be pro-life tbh. But that won't happen.
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ChickenMadness
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#139
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(Original post by James Milibanter)
The man doesn't have to pay child support in that event either.

A man can choose to not have sex.
But a woman can choose to have sex and THEN be absolved of all responsibility.

The man can't.

(Original post by DorianGrayism)
I know she can have an abortion.

The man chose to have sex in the knowledge that she can get pregnant and have an abortion or keep the baby.

Abortion has nothing to do with the male so whether the Male sees it as a magical get out of free card is irrelevant.
Well thats a father's child that's getting aborted. It wouldn't exist without the father. So ye it does have something to do with him lol.
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DorianGrayism
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#140
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(Original post by ChickenMadness)
And the woman could take away the man's ability to be primary custodian anyway by aborting it.
.
Yes. That is correct, since she has Financial and Physical responsibility for the child.

Men are not required to pay or take any of the risk during Pregnancy, so their opinion is irrelevant.

If you are dumb enough to have sex without a condom and produce a baby then it is your fault.
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