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EU referendum: Where does your vote lie? watch

  • View Poll Results: In or Out of EU?
    In
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    Out
    37.00%
    I won't vote.
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    In, without even considering the debate. There's no way the economy would be able to handle the changes that come with an out vote. We're seeing big companies like Deutsche Bank already considering what to do in the event of an out vote. It just isn't worth the risk.
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    (Original post by domlang123)
    In, without even considering the debate. There's no way the economy would be able to handle the changes that come with an out vote. We're seeing big companies like Deutsche Bank already considering what to do in the event of an out vote. It just isn't worth the risk.
    If only everybody would think like you...
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    Unlocked the result for you all.
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    It's a fix!

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    (Original post by HigherMinion)
    It's a fix!

    What?
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    Very much in.
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    It's idiotic to seek to isolate yourself in a world where globalisation is inevitable, very simply due to it's technological capabilties. Leave the EU, the friendliest organisation the UK can be in that will protect it in the future? Go ahead, lets see your face in 50 years when you struggle against massive international organisations.
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    I'll reserve my final decision until any renegotiation of our membership has taken place (or not, as the case may be).
    If the new terms are to my liking then I'd vote to stay "In". If not, or if nothing changes, then "Out". Norway and Switzerland manage just fine despite not being in the EU and so can the UK.
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    Out for lols.
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    Posted from TSR Mobile


    I don't think we are trying to isolate ourselves and that won't be the case.
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    (Original post by flugelr)
    We are the 5th or 6th largest economy in the world, we are one of 5 permanent UN security council members, we are a top 5 military power while our culture is among the most exported in the world.

    Just how much bigger do you think we have to be?
    We're the 5th/6th biggest economy largely because we're the financial centre of Europe and banking services/European HQs are whirlpooled into London from elsewhere in the EU. It's reasonably likely we'd lose a lot of that if we departed the EU. A better way to word my comment would have been that we're probably not sufficiently powerful as a standalone economy.

    The UN security council is nice but based largely in history. I wouldn't be surprised if things changed there at some point, probably an expansion. Either way, it doesn't convey a great deal of power given the present state of the UN.

    Every country has exports (cultural or otherwise).

    The UK's problem is that it's largely a hub, and seems to depend (directly or indirectly) on its EU membership for a significant amount of what it can bring in. As a spatial unit the UK holds very little that can't be removed quite easily. This isn't to say that the UK couldn't survive without the EU, simply that leaving the EU while the EU is still functioning properly would bring more harm than good.
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    (Original post by Manitude)
    I'll reserve my final decision until any renegotiation of our membership has taken place (or not, as the case may be).
    If the new terms are to my liking then I'd vote to stay "In". If not, or if nothing changes, then "Out". Norway and Switzerland manage just fine despite not being in the EU and so can the UK.
    You can't cite Norway and Switzerland as examples of how a country can survive outside the EU. The UK's population is roughly 64M people which host one of the biggest economies in the world whilst Norway and Switzerland populations are 8M and 5M respectively.

    Leaving the EU has far more serious implications for the UK and our citizens than it does small European nations. One of my main concerns about leaving the EU is the negotiation of trade deals if we left, we'd be at a considerable disadvantage to negotiate a fair deal.
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    (Original post by sevchenko)
    You can't cite Norway and Switzerland as examples of how a country can survive outside the EU. The UK's population is roughly 64M people which host one of the biggest economies in the world whilst Norway and Switzerland populations are 8M and 5M respectively.

    Leaving the EU has far more serious implications for the UK and our citizens than it does small European nations. One of my main concerns about leaving the EU is the negotiation of trade deals if we left, we'd be at a considerable disadvantage to negotiate a fair deal.
    Just because they have a smaller population doesn't mean we can't strive to get the same deals that they enjoy (and also strive towards pretty much everything they do better than us!).

    Given that the UK is the second largest economy in Europe we would be in a good place to renegotiate our terms. Much better than, say, Portugal or Ireland. The EU needs the UK as a trade partner just as much as we need the EU, I would imagine. I've every confidence that if the UK were to leave then our economy would not be adversely affected in the long term. In the short term it could be a problem while the stock traders work out whether or not it's a good thing.

    If the 'Brexit' campaign is to succeed then it has to learn from the Scottish Yes campaign - you can't break away without actually sorting out what will happen with things like debt and trade deals. Obviously currency isn't an issue for the UK, though. If things like this are sorted out before the referendum takes place then I can see the Brexit campaign standing a much stronger chance.
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    (Original post by Manitude)
    x
    Population is still a pretty massive factor people need to consider, It'd be nearly impossible to get a deal that resembles the likes of Norway and Switzerland because of the fact British businesses enjoy free movement goods and persons more so than smaller nations.

    In the event the NO wins and we start to proactively renegotiate deals the UK would need to secure an initial deal for the sake of continuity and functionality which is likely not to be in our favour or fair. Failure to get a fair deal or prolonged negotiations of any kind after that is simply more detrimental to the UK than the EU. The EU, in the event the UK leaves, will simply be in far more stable position whereas we may be the 2nd largest economy but uncertainty over our business, our links within the EU and our citizen living abroad will leads to greater urgency to secure any kind of deal. As you mentioned I dread to think what the uncertainty would do to British stock.

    Short term there'd be chaos and most deals would be to our detriment, long term I'm not sure if we can definitive say the UK would be better off outside the EU. The idea that the UK could enjoy the best of what the EU offers but not subscribe to free movement of persons or fiscal commitments is quite frankly a delusion.

    I'm pretty sure there'll be an informal penalty against the UK as well. Imo a prosperous country with the size and economic strength of the UK outside the EU is a bit of a insult to the EU and a potential domino effect threat that could mean other nations within it could be successful without the EU. I'm sure the heavyweights within the EU would take the economic hit of not giving a fair deal to the UK to prevent the UK's leaving being successful. You'd be surprised how the core founders and senior leaders of the EU pretty much believe in the aims and core values of the EU religiously.

    There's difficulty over how much can be sorted before the actually ref takes place most of the things that can be sort will be almost trivial.
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    (Original post by sevchenko)
    Population is still a pretty massive factor people need to consider, It'd be nearly impossible to get a deal that resembles the likes of Norway and Switzerland because of the fact British businesses enjoy free movement goods and persons more so than smaller nations.

    In the event the NO wins and we start to proactively renegotiate deals the UK would need to secure an initial deal for the sake of continuity and functionality which is likely not to be in our favour or fair. Failure to get a fair deal or prolonged negotiations of any kind after that is simply more detrimental to the UK than the EU. The EU, in the event the UK leaves, will simply be in far more stable position whereas we may be the 2nd largest economy but uncertainty over our business, our links within the EU and our citizen living abroad will leads to greater urgency to secure any kind of deal. As you mentioned I dread to think what the uncertainty would do to British stock.

    Short term there'd be chaos and most deals would be to our detriment, long term I'm not sure if we can definitive say the UK would be better off outside the EU. The idea that the UK could enjoy the best of what the EU offers but not subscribe to free movement of persons or fiscal commitments is quite frankly a delusion.

    I'm pretty sure there'll be an informal penalty against the UK as well. Imo a prosperous country with the size and economic strength of the UK outside the EU is a bit of a insult to the EU and a potential domino effect threat that could mean other nations within it could be successful without the EU. I'm sure the heavyweights within the EU would take the economic hit of not giving a fair deal to the UK to prevent the UK's leaving being successful. You'd be surprised how the core founders and senior leaders of the EU pretty much believe in the aims and core values of the EU religiously.

    There's difficulty over how much can be sorted before the actually ref takes place most of the things that can be sort will be almost trivial.
    As I possibly alluded to earlier, I'm not necessarily decided on voting to leave the EU. I'd be happy to stay in provided that the outcome of any negotiations were to my liking. I'm not entirely what I'd want from said negotiations, though. If nothing can be changed then I think the lesser of the two evils would be to leave and take the economic penalty. I'm not keen on the 'ever closer union' that is driving Europe to be one homogeneous "United States of Europe". I think it would be a great shame to erode the great diversity of language and culture that currently exists in Europe. I strongly suspect that if I was brought up in, say, The Netherlands, then I would not think this way. I think growing up in England has given me an island mentality where we are our own entity. We do pretty well for ourselves despite being a small nation both by area and population. I'm sure that if the UK were to become independent that we would still be mostly fine. We might not be better off, but I don't think we'd regress to the point of no longer being able to function. I think that's a fair price to pay to avoid being called "North Atlantic Region, EU" or some other bland title. /hypoerbole
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    (Original post by Manitude)
    Just because they have a smaller population doesn't mean we can't strive to get the same deals that they enjoy (and also strive towards pretty much everything they do better than us!).

    Given that the UK is the second largest economy in Europe we would be in a good place to renegotiate our terms. Much better than, say, Portugal or Ireland. The EU needs the UK as a trade partner just as much as we need the EU, I would imagine. I've every confidence that if the UK were to leave then our economy would not be adversely affected in the long term. In the short term it could be a problem while the stock traders work out whether or not it's a good thing.

    If the 'Brexit' campaign is to succeed then it has to learn from the Scottish Yes campaign - you can't break away without actually sorting out what will happen with things like debt and trade deals. Obviously currency isn't an issue for the UK, though. If things like this are sorted out before the referendum takes place then I can see the Brexit campaign standing a much stronger chance.
    And that's exactly why they won't be.

    One has to remember that the UK government is campaigning to stay In, therefore it will gain nothing from sorting out such things beforehand when it can play the uncertainty card. As much as Farage and co would love to sort out the details beforehand, one has to remember that they have no power and nor will they even conducting the exit negotiations if we leave.

    So long as a PM holding the referendum wants to stay, he has the out campaign by the balls in the terms of uncertainty. It's one of the reasons why Ukip have been suggesting they'll call foul for some time (they'll view such a referendum as rigged).

    (Original post by sevchenko)
    Population is still a pretty massive factor people need to consider, It'd be nearly impossible to get a deal that resembles the likes of Norway and Switzerland because of the fact British businesses enjoy free movement goods and persons more so than smaller nations.

    In the event the NO wins and we start to proactively renegotiate deals the UK would need to secure an initial deal for the sake of continuity and functionality which is likely not to be in our favour or fair. Failure to get a fair deal or prolonged negotiations of any kind after that is simply more detrimental to the UK than the EU. The EU, in the event the UK leaves, will simply be in far more stable position whereas we may be the 2nd largest economy but uncertainty over our business, our links within the EU and our citizen living abroad will leads to greater urgency to secure any kind of deal. As you mentioned I dread to think what the uncertainty would do to British stock.

    Short term there'd be chaos and most deals would be to our detriment, long term I'm not sure if we can definitive say the UK would be better off outside the EU. The idea that the UK could enjoy the best of what the EU offers but not subscribe to free movement of persons or fiscal commitments is quite frankly a delusion.

    I'm pretty sure there'll be an informal penalty against the UK as well. Imo a prosperous country with the size and economic strength of the UK outside the EU is a bit of a insult to the EU and a potential domino effect threat that could mean other nations within it could be successful without the EU. I'm sure the heavyweights within the EU would take the economic hit of not giving a fair deal to the UK to prevent the UK's leaving being successful. You'd be surprised how the core founders and senior leaders of the EU pretty much believe in the aims and core values of the EU religiously.

    There's difficulty over how much can be sorted before the actually ref takes place most of the things that can be sort will be almost trivial.
    States are not children, i don't think a penalty is a realistic outcome and nor do i think it will cause a domino effect (the continent is not nearly skeptic across the board as skeptics in the UK think). The real problem will be France because they don't like free trade anyway (and their position is strengthened by the UK leaving since we traditionally ally with Germany and the Netherlands more than we do France).

    I'm not a skeptic myself (undecided) but i do expect some kind of free trade deal.
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    (Original post by Rakas21)

    States are not children, i don't think a penalty is a realistic outcome and nor do i think it will cause a domino effect (the continent is not nearly skeptic across the board as skeptics in the UK think). The real problem will be France because they don't like free trade anyway (and their position is strengthened by the UK leaving since we traditionally ally with Germany and the Netherlands more than we do France).

    I'm not a skeptic myself (undecided) but i do expect some kind of free trade deal.
    Well, why would you expect a Free Trade deal? It would require all of the States to agree and I can imagine a number of states would be opposed to a country having a Free Trade deal with nothing in return.
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    Out. Europe's a sinking ship.
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    (Original post by Manitude)
    Given that the UK is the second largest economy in Europe we would be in a good place to renegotiate our terms. Much better than, say, Portugal or Ireland. The EU needs the UK as a trade partner just as much as we need the EU, I would imagine. I've every confidence that if the UK were to leave then our economy would not be adversely affected in the long term. In the short term it could be a problem while the stock traders work out whether or not it's a good thing..
    No, they don't.

    20% of EU exports go to Britain. 50% of British Exports go to the EU.

    That also ignores the fact that a proportion of our Non-EU trade also depends upon EU negotiated Free trade deals.

    (Original post by Manitude)
    If the 'Brexit' campaign is to succeed then it has to learn from the Scottish Yes campaign - you can't break away without actually sorting out what will happen with things like debt and trade deals. Obviously currency isn't an issue for the UK, though. If things like this are sorted out before the referendum takes place then I can see the Brexit campaign standing a much stronger chance.
    The problem with the Yes Campaign is that was built on Lies. They were never going to be part of the EU. They were never going to have control over the basic levers of their economy.

    Like Scottish Nationalists, English Nationalists are willing to destroy the country in order to try to create an unproven utopia.
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    (Original post by DorianGrayism)
    Well, why would you expect a Free Trade deal? It would require all of the States to agree and I can imagine a number of states would be opposed to a country having a Free Trade deal with nothing in return.
    The point of a free trade deal is that both parties get something in return and many will support the status quo.

    The problem is protectionist states like France who fart around whether it's the UK or TTIP.
 
 
 

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