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Labour's Exteme Left Shadow Cabinet, no women in top jobs & appoints John McDonnell! watch

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    (Original post by redferry)
    It should have been Barry, we all wanted it to be Barry :'(
    Well maybe Barry will play a role behind the scenes :yy: (Not that I know who he is)
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    (Original post by Mr JB)
    Where did I say they were the same? Many of the skills required are the same, yet you're both too daft to notice this. Party leaders, just like entrepreneurial business owners, require great management skills, interpersonal skills and trust is paramount. If you think people at this level are hired solely on the basis of education and work experience then by God you are both living in a world of delusion.

    Are you seriously suggesting that a party leader does not require great management skills, great interpersonal skills and trust from his delegates, just as a business owner does? If so, then you are only highlighting your own idiocy.
    Your last sentence is just creating a straw man, nothing more. Obviously they do. But you seem to be suggesting that as long as a person has those things, their skills are irrelevant. I say that is equally nonsensical. Sure, a lot of George Osborne's legwork won't actually be done by him. But are you, in turn, suggesting that it is completely unnecessary for the person in charge of a country's economic affairs to have no formal economics training whatsoever? My argument - I can't speak for redferry's - is not that our Chancellor should be a Noble Prize economist. It's simply that nebulous notions like 'team management' are used by government officials as an excuse to just choose sycophants and friends.

    I'd also argue that those who can achieve strong academic results are also likely to have prioritization skills, management skills, as well as a strong understanding of the field they're working in. Just look at how much Michael Gove alienated teachers - a consequence, I would strongly argue, of his complete lack of experience of the education industry.

    (Original post by redferry)
    But when you've run your campaign on an equality platform you just can't do that...

    It also seems to me that he's put women into other roles that they aren't qualified for just because they are women. It's all a mess.
    Which ones are you thinking of?

    It's possible I'm too easily satisfied with what's been done. I think Eagle has been unfairly denied a role, but I also think that Corbyn has made a satisfactory start. I guess we're destined to disagree on that.
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    (Original post by L'Evil Fish)
    Well maybe Barry will play a role behind the scenes :yy: (Not that I know who he is)
    Thank you, that makes me feel a bit better.

    I've got no argument left now, I'm just sad and deflated.
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    (Original post by L'Allegro)
    Your last sentence is just creating a straw man, nothing more. Obviously they do. But you seem to be suggesting that as long as a person has those things, their skills are irrelevant. I say that is equally nonsensical. Sure, a lot of George Osborne's legwork won't actually be done by him. But are you, in turn, suggesting that it is completely unnecessary for the person in charge of a country's economic affairs to have no formal economics training whatsoever? My argument - I can't speak for redferry's - is not that our Chancellor should be a Noble Prize economist. It's simply that nebulous notions like 'team management' are used by government officials as an excuse to just choose sycophants and friends.

    I'd also argue that those who can achieve strong academic results are also likely to have prioritization skills, management skills, as well as a strong understanding of the field they're working in. Just look at how much Michael Gove alienated teachers - a consequence, I would strongly argue, of his complete lack of experience of the education industry.
    And still you are proving your utter delusion. Corbyn's main priority now is trust, first and foremost. There are backstabbers in the party willing to move and get rid of him. This has been common knowledge before he even got elected. To protect yourself from a coup you put people you can trust in high places. This is politics.

    Furthermore, nowhere did I suggest skills are irrelevant. However, they're also not the be all and end all.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Thank you, that makes me feel a bit better.

    I've got no argument left now, I'm just sad and deflated.
    I don't think you should be deflated tbh, maybe if he had appointed Barry, then Kerry would never get a say in it.

    But my having Kerry in, Barry will have to have input, so that way 2 people are involved instead of the risk of 1. Likely more than just them obviously, but an extra person nonetheless.
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    Let me impart my 35+years of work experience, knowledge and thoughts on this,,, in business, there are three types of manager.. Process (can manage processes, follow procedures, rules, etc but crap at managing people), People (good at managing people but not so good at planning or getting the real job done) and sometimes, hybrid Process/People (good at both); and of course, there are leaders that envibe genuine leadership skills, get the best out of people by coaching, trusting, developing and having a strategy for moving a business forward. Just because someone is a manager, does NOT mean they are a leader nor have the requisite inter-personal skills, far, from it. I actually think Corbyn is quite personable, I just think he is taking us back to the 1970s... his Chancellor however has a lot to learn, has absolutely zero charm and is actually a serious liability to Corbyn Labour - but we shall see.

    (Original post by Mr JB)
    No. I just understand that man management involves a lot of trust.... you have done is illustrate your complete lack of understanding when it comes to business and in particular, interpersonal skills.
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    (Original post by L'Allegro)
    Which ones are you thinking of?

    It's possible I'm too easily satisfied with what's been done. I think Eagle has been unfairly denied a role, but I also think that Corbyn has made a satisfactory start. I guess we're destined to disagree on that.
    I work in the environment so environment and climate change really. I was just hoping for someone with either a science background or at least strong knowledge and experience in those areas.
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    (Original post by L'Evil Fish)
    I don't think you should be deflated tbh, maybe if he had appointed Barry, then Kerry would never get a say in it.

    But my having Kerry in, Barry will have to have input, so that way 2 people are involved instead of the risk of 1. Likely more than just them obviously, but an extra person nonetheless.
    I'm worried the Tories will scrap defra if the environment isn't a serious issue for Labour

    And then I'll never get a job after my PhD
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    Understand the criticisms of picking McDonnell over Eagle, but at the same time understand why he did, and it's not just because the two are friends; if you're going to push for a radically different economic policy, someone confrontational like McDonnell might well be what you want.
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    No, it will alienate Middle England - confrontation and seen as extreme Leftism.
    (Original post by anarchism101)
    Understand the criticisms of picking McDonnell over Eagle, but at the same time understand why he did, and it's not just because the two are friends; if you're going to push for a radically different economic policy, someone confrontational like McDonnell might well be what you want.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    I'm just sad and deflated.
    Why on earth would you be sad and deflated? You got exactly what you wanted.

    (Original post by redferry)
    You join a party and change it from the inside out.
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    You will be fine...
    (Original post by redferry)
    I'm worried the Tories will scrap defra if the environment isn't a serious issue for Labour

    And then I'll never get a job after my PhD
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    (Original post by StevePownall)
    Let me impart my 35+years of work experience, knowledge and thoughts on this,,, in business, there are three types of manager.. Process (can manage processes, follow procedures, rules, etc but crap at managing people), People (good at managing people but not so good at planning or getting the real job done) and sometimes, hybrid Process/People (good at both); and of course, there are leaders that envibe genuine leadership skills, get the best out of people by coaching, trusting, developing and having a strategy for moving a business forward. Just because someone is a manager, does NOT mean they are a leader nor have the requisite inter-personal skills, far, from it. I actually think Corbyn is quite personable, I just think he is taking us back to the 1970s... his Chancellor however has a lot to learn, has absolutely zero charm and is actually a serious liability to Corbyn Labour - but we shall see.
    Yes, and a good business owner does it all, enters a partnership with or hires someone trustworthy that has the skills he lacks and delegates. There is a vast amount of difference between a business owner and a manager. I'm talking as a current business owner with previous work experience dealing with clients such as Sony. Also, your comment of a 'Process Manager' being bad at managing people is laughable. They have to deal with customers at the end of a process and still need good skills to ensure the entire process goes smoothly as they are overseeing anything. Managers need to be able to manage people and have the skills required to do so. Quite frankly, any 'manager' that cant do that isn't worth their salt. With all due respect, interpersonal skills are the difference between okay and great employees.

    And yes, you are correct, none of this makes you a great leader, but a leader should have those skills and more, just as a business owner should, a leader of a political party or any organisation should.
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    (Original post by StevePownall)
    No, it will alienate Middle England - confrontation and seen as extreme Leftism.
    Labour doesn't have a hope in hell with Middle England anyway. It needs to regain SNP voters, northern voters and the people of Wales. It also needs to win those close fought seats in inner city suburbs. Labour's only real chance moving forward is a coalition government, and they are lucky in the sense that the other parties: SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats - are far more likely to want to form a coalition with them, than the Tories. A Corbyn Labour will be more than happy to do a deal with them if it means keeping the Tories out.

    Anyone thinking Labour can regain Middle England, even with a Blairite, is quite frankly delusional.
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    (Original post by redferry)
    Obviously you yourself care greatly about equality.
    Does this make you feel better:

    Tristram Hunt and Chukka Umunna were arrogant *******s to decide to refuse to serve in the shadow cabinet. Reeves and Kendall were woman so I called them *****es, Umunna and Hunt are men so I think of them as disgraceful *******s. There we are. Unlike your version of feminism, my version is viewing men as equal to women, rather than suggesting that a woman is inherently more capable than men and musn't be called out for **** behaviour.
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    (Original post by Mr JB)
    Labour doesn't have a hope in hell with Middle England anyway. It needs to regain SNP voters, northern voters and the people of Wales. It also needs to win those close fought seats in inner city suburbs. Labour's only real chance moving forward is a coalition government, and they are lucky in the sense that the other parties: SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats - are far more likely to want to form a coalition with them, than the Tories. A Corbyn Labour will be more than happy to do a deal with them if it means keeping the Tories out.

    Anyone thinking Labour can regain Middle England, even with a Blairite, is quite frankly delusional.
    so basically you think its bleak for labour for ever now?

    its kinda scary to think we may become a one nation state with the tories ruling all the time. I dont think thats healthy for society tbh
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    I agree with most of your response.. apart from this. Trust me, in my time I have worked for Govt, large companies, corporates (some in Europe) and some of the 'process' managers I have worked with have absolutely zero inter-personal /leadership skills, even though they manage teams or departments! A lot of this is down to the leadership style and culture of those companies i.e. the Old Boy Network - and it still exists.. Corbyn Labour?
    (Original post by Mr JB)
    ...Also, your comment of a 'Process Manager' being bad at managing people is laughable.
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    But Labour needs Middle England and the like, it will never recover from the SNP losses.. especially if Scottish independence comes through. I live near Nuneaton (key marginal) which Labour needs... going by local news, it isn't going to happen with Corbyn.
    (Original post by Mr JB)
    Labour doesn't have a hope in hell with Middle England anyway. It needs to regain SNP voters, northern voters and the people of Wales. It also needs to win those close fought seats in inner city suburbs. Labour's only real chance moving forward is a coalition government, and they are lucky in the sense that the other parties: SNP, Plaid Cymru and the Liberal Democrats - are far more likely to want to form a coalition with them, than the Tories. A Corbyn Labour will be more than happy to do a deal with them if it means keeping the Tories out.

    Anyone thinking Labour can regain Middle England, even with a Blairite, is quite frankly delusional.
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    (Original post by n09)
    Why on earth would you be sad and deflated? You got exactly what you wanted.
    He won amongst members too so that's not really what happened. The new influx was not what decided the vote (thankfully else all hell would have broken loose...)
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    (Original post by hubbaeaster)
    Does this make you feel better:

    Tristram Hunt and Chukka Umunna were arrogant *******s to decide to refuse to serve in the shadow cabinet. Reeves and Kendall were woman so I called them *****es, Umunna and Hunt are men so I think of them as disgraceful *******s. There we are. Unlike your version of feminism, my version is viewing men as equal to women, rather than suggesting that a woman is inherently more capable than men and musn't be called out for **** behaviour.
    Well clearly not as you called women *****es, something I'd avoid in future if you don't want to be viewed as sexist.
 
 
 
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